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  1. #101
    Non-member Kenobi's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    The answer to all this is very easy.

    Everyone step down. Then the club, all members whom wish to vote, can vote the admin/commitee in.

    If at that point, all the same admin get in. Thats it. Discussion over.

    This club was ran far far better in the last decade.


    Time for change.

  2. #102
    Non-member Phil W's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Agreed

    Time For Change!

    There needs to be action now, no more words! stick a poll up to see if the members want change or not.

  3. #103
    Non-member 5teve L's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Agreed, we do.... but we need 'doers' not people that say they will do things & then back out after a few weeks of it.. There aren't many that are willing to give up personal time to keep a car club running..

  4. #104
    Committee Member chris's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenobi View Post
    The answer to all this is very easy.

    Everyone step down. Then the club, all members whom wish to vote, can vote the admin/commitee in.

    If at that point, all the same admin get in. Thats it. Discussion over.

    This club was ran far far better in the last decade.


    Time for change.
    So the committee steps down how does the club keep goin while the vote goes on ? And then say new members get voted in how do they know what to do or how to do it?

  5. #105
    Non-member Phil W's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by 5teve L View Post
    Agreed, we do.... but we need 'doers' not people that say they will do things & then back out after a few weeks of it.. There aren't many that are willing to give up personal time to keep a car club running..
    You don't know until you try!

  6. #106
    Non-member 5teve L's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil W View Post
    You don't know until you try!
    I don't think you can just oust the current committee, I think if people want roles they should be bought into the CM to 'help', see how they get on & then a vote. Or we could end up as Chris says, with a load of new people without a clue what to do.... it won't work.
    Some roles are easy to do, some are not.

    Being a member of a shooting club that has a committee & constitution (of which I am on the committee), trust me it won't work.

  7. #107
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by 5teve L View Post
    I don't think you can just oust the current committee, I think if people want roles they should be bought into the CM to 'help', see how they get on & then a vote. Or we could end up as Chris says, with a load of new people without a clue what to do.... it won't work.
    Some roles are easy to do, some are not.

    Being a member of a shooting club that has a committee & constitution (of which I am on the committee), trust me it won't work.
    Could you dissolve the current people , vote in a "holding" member and form the comittee whilst being overseen by the holding member.

    Once the commitee is formed the holding member retires ?

  8. #108
    Committee Member chris's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Phil you say time for change can you tell me what you want to change and how you would do it ?

  9. #109
    Non-member 5teve L's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    I feel what we need to do is people continue adding to Moggys thread https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=36004.
    This way we should start to see a pattern of what people think needs to happen, & maybe some suggestions will come from it that make sense (as they already have) & we can implement them into the club.
    Not everyone will be happy, no-one ever is, that's life unfortunately.

    I for one would like to do a simple vote, who is happy with the way the club is run, who wants change, who doesn't care as long as the crap stops.

  10. #110
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by 5teve L View Post

    I for one would like to do a simple vote, who is happy with the way the club is run, who want's change, who doesn't care as long as the crap stops.
    Hey up buddy. I have proposed this but had the answer that people on here dont vote.

    I would counter that if you force people to vote they will ...

  11. #111
    Non-member 5teve L's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by chris View Post
    Phil you say time for change can you tell me what you want to change and how you would do it ?
    Add this into Moggys thread please if you have some input though Phil, or it will get lost in this thread.

  12. #112
    Non-member 5teve L's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by andybond View Post
    Hey up buddy. I have proposed this but had the answer that people on here dont vote.

    I would counter that if you force people to vote they will ...
    It is true, in the past the voting thing hasn't worked, I feel, like you, we should give this a go to see the outcome. It would need to be worded simply & have 3 options ??

  13. #113
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by 5teve L View Post
    It is true, in the past the voting thing hasn't worked, I feel, like you, we should give this a go to see the outcome. It would need to be worded simply & have 3 options ??
    I think you have to phrase the questions positivity.



    1) Do you feel change is needed within the running of the club
    A) Yes
    B) No

    etc

    I dont think this will come to fruition though unfortunately.

  14. #114
    Non-member Hammer's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Good idea keeping everything in one thread so that people's views and opinions do not get lost.

    However, might I add that if a member does ask a question or come up with an idea, that those who are in the position of oversight of the club and the decision makers answer that question? Even if they think the idea is foolish or completely unrealistic, just a response saying so would show members that their opinions are at least being heard.

    Thank you
    Last edited by Hammer; 14-01-2014 at 13:50. Reason: Spelling mistakes

  15. #115
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    Good idea keeping everything in one thread so that people's views and opinions do not get lost.

    However, might I add that if a member does ask a question or come up with an idea, that those who are in the position of oversight of the club and the decision makers answer that question? Even if they think the idea is foolish or completely unrealistic, just a response saying so would show members that their options are at least being heard.

    Thank you
    Thats a top idea.

  16. #116
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Any vote on electoral matters should require a minimum % of the membership to take part in order for the results to stand.

    It would maybe make sense not to use the total number of club members as the 100% measure, since a number are totally/virtually inactive. Perhaps those who have logged on to the site at least x times in the last x months should be used to identify the total number of active members.

    For example:

    total members - 400
    total members deemed 'active' - 180
    % required for electoral voting to be legitimate - 51%
    Minimum votes required - 92

    A mailshot to the membership could be done beforehand.

  17. #117
    Non-member Kenobi's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Hold the vote before people step down then.

    So the current Gang/Posse stay in place and simply apply for thier roles.

    Im sure some of the staff will stay in place even after voting.

    You can see who is likely to get voted out as they are the ones least likely to accept this kind of reform.


  18. #118
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevhib View Post
    Any vote on electoral matters should require a minimum % of the membership to take part in order for the results to stand.

    It would maybe make sense not to use the total number of club members as the 100% measure, since a number are totally/virtually inactive. Perhaps those who have logged on to the site at least x times in the last x months should be used to identify the total number of active members.

    For example:

    total members - 400
    total members deemed 'active' - 180
    % required for electoral voting to be legitimate - 51%
    Minimum votes required - 92

    A mailshot to the membership could be done beforehand.
    Seems logical.

  19. #119
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenobi View Post
    Hold the vote before people step down......the current incumbents stay in place and simply re-apply for their roles.

    You can see who is likely to get voted out as they are the ones least likely to accept this kind of reform.
    There is no need for reforms to achieve the above. Those things are already covered within the existing club rules.

  20. #120
    Committee, Treasurer, Memberships admin Ian S's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by andybond View Post
    1) Do you feel change is needed within the running of the club

    A) Yes
    B) No
    This is just a con.

    With all due respect, I have no respect for this nonsense.

    The answer will be an overwhelming yes!

    Even if a tiny tiny change is needed, then there is only one answer.

    There is always some change needed.

    So lets our save ourselves a load a time wasting and lets assume the vote has happened and the answer was yes.

    • What changes are proposed.

    • This is what the club as a whole needs to identify and work on.

    The committee are very busy lately making a lot of changes.

  21. #121
    Non-member 5teve L's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenobi View Post
    Hold the vote before people step down then.

    So the current Gang/Posse stay in place and simply apply for thier roles.

    Im sure some of the staff will stay in place even after voting.

    You can see who is likely to get voted out as they are the ones least likely to accept this kind of reform.

    Danny, i have a lot of time for you mate.. but you don't half talk some sometimes..

  22. #122
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian S View Post
    This is just a con.


    So lets our save ourselves a load a time wasting and lets assume the vote has happened and the answer was yes.
    Ian , If I had of posted that you would have come down on me like a ton of bricks. Anyway , work through the next bit with me :

    Assume what Trev said was taken up , 51% of all active people need to vote.

    If 51% of the active vote , voted that NO they dont think anything needs doing then continue down the path that you are going down.

    If it goes the other way , then readdress.

    Its not a snipe or a winge at you or the CM , its to find out if there is a problem. I dont get why you are so defensive over this bit ? I appreciate everything in life can be improved on , but there is little point in terms of a club if noone wants it. That is all the first question is establishing.

    I know the CM are working on stuff because we have had long PM's about it but the other guys out there will have to read between the lines and the post the Ross has put up. Why not tell them the things that you guys are trying to achieve ? Everyone loves a trier , even if some of the stuff doesnt come off.

  23. #123
    Committee, Treasurer, Memberships admin Ian S's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    When you put it like that, fair enough

    There has been so much antagonism and sniping lately with little or no real justification.

    We know that some changes are needed, already established that ages ago.

    The simple problem is, and has been, lack of man power.

    It's good and encouraging that people do make a general offer to help out. The difficult part is matching that to what needs to be done.

    One role here probably is someone to do that matching.

    Establish what is needed, write some detail and establish what it is that people offering can do.

    If I or other people currently managing the cub could easily whip this up then we would have by now.

    I was up until nearly 3 am again last night doing general stuff for the RTOC. On Saturday I worked 13 for the RTOC of the 14 hours I was up. Yesterday, today, a lot of days, a lot of hours. Other people have been putting in a lot of time lately too.

    It would be good people offered to do some specific task that we could get going. Two people offered to do stuff with the home page a few months ago but that was not so easy to make happen. In time it may be.

  24. #124
    Non-member Kenobi's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by 5teve L View Post
    Danny, i have a lot of time for you mate.. but you don't half talk some sometimes..

    LOL hi lover.


  25. #125
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian S View Post
    When you put it like that, fair enough
    I think we nearly agreed on something.

    This could be uncharted territory.



    I dont think anyone out there doubts your work and commitment to the club Ian. I never have.

  26. #126
    Non-member JP Racing's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Ok instead of voting on the current committee positions, like some people want, would it not be better to list all the roles that need filling with a brief description of the roll and candidates can put there names down and we can vote all these new people in that can help out. Makes sense to fill these rolls first before we have any major change. Just an idea

  27. #127
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    I see what you are saying , but some people might not like or want to work alongside the current people plus in whatever short timefram they might have to revote.

    I think the idea of a steering group could work , or alternatively a transitional Chairman who does holds the club together for the few weeks that a transition is in place.

    Failing that , Scoff is politically uncorrputable so could keep the site running in transient times.

    But this is moot until it is ascertained whether a change is wanted.

  28. #128
    Non-member ScottKinnear's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenobi View Post
    LOL hi lover.

    Hey if it's not the old leader of the call of duty 3 [c][t] clan!!!

    You still playing? I am although not half as sharp as I used to be

    Little punks!!!!

  29. #129
    Committee, South East Regional Rep James5's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevhib View Post
    Any vote on electoral matters should require a minimum % of the membership to take part in order for the results to stand.

    It would maybe make sense not to use the total number of club members as the 100% measure, since a number are totally/virtually inactive. Perhaps those who have logged on to the site at least x times in the last x months should be used to identify the total number of active members.

    For example:

    total members - 400
    total members deemed 'active' - 180
    % required for electoral voting to be legitimate - 51%
    Minimum votes required - 92

    A mailshot to the membership could be done beforehand.

    have to agree a vote is the only way around this. Maybe also give the positions / roles a length of time a couple of years.

  30. #130
    Non-member andybond's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by James5 View Post
    Maybe also give the positions / roles a length of time a couple of years.
    Agree with that .

  31. #131
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging


  32. #132
    Non-member Adey aka Ewok's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    the rules currently state, if i read them wrong that the term is a year, and members stand for re election, voted for by the committee and then told to the club at the agm. thats if im reading them right? thing is i think we are all thinking along the lines of the club voting but as far as i read ( again could be wrong) the committee make the decisions on who are in the committee? Is this correct?

  33. #133
    Non-member Adey aka Ewok's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Adey aka Ewok View Post
    the rules currently state, if i read them wrong that the term is a year, and members stand for re election, voted for by the committee and then told to the club at the agm. thats if im reading them right? thing is i think we are all thinking along the lines of the club voting but as far as i read ( again could be wrong) the committee make the decisions on who are in the committee? Is this correct?
    arghhhhh dam no edit button! unless i read them wrong not if i read them wrong, also could of deleted it after the link was posted

  34. #134
    Member clee's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    From my experiance it's more like ...we have a vacancy ...no-one applies for the role or at most only a couple and if we are lucky we manage to get someone that sticks with it for more than a few months ...
    Yes the committe make the decision but that's irrelevant if it's a choice of 1 .

    Sorry to piss on any parades of a brave new world but really ,honestly, and with zero axe to grind that's what happens Adey .

  35. #135
    Non-member Adey aka Ewok's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    yeah cool, just double checking that's how it was written. I think the general majority of people are thinking that they some how get to vote members into the committee, and thats just not how it works

  36. #136
    Detailing Mod Lowiepete's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    OK, so now that this thread has turned toward positive replies, here's my 2p.

    Having closely read the club constitution, there is IMO a flaw - one which inevitably leads
    to accusations of clique etc. There should be clear demarcations between elected officers
    and appointees. The top 4 positions, plus committee members per se should all be elected
    by the membership - preferably by postal ballot / online ballot. Terms of office should also
    be looked at - maybe eligible for up to 4 years, in place for 2 years without challenge.

    The appointed officers should only be appointed by the committee - events organiser,
    shopkeeper, publicity officer, etc. They should not be considered as committee members!
    All appointed officers can/should attend committee meetings but whether or not they
    take part in a committee vote should be in the gift of the chairman.

    The whole point is to spread the workload over as many heads as possible so that the
    post-holders are able to give it their all. Many hands etc...

    The above should go some way toward solving current issues.

    Regards,
    Steve

  37. #137
    Non-member gtmatt's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    People keep moaning and making opinions on about the club ,why don't we just have a vote about the changes etc or this threads will go on and on ,or is the commitee keep going to ban members and restrict them
    Last edited by gtmatt; 14-01-2014 at 23:12.

  38. #138
    Non-member Kenobi's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by ScottKinnear View Post
    Hey if it's not the old leader of the call of duty 3 [c][t] clan!!!

    You still playing? I am although not half as sharp as I used to be

    Little punks!!!!
    Greetings!

    add me fella HtecElite-Kenobi

  39. #139
    Non-member ScottKinnear's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenobi View Post
    Greetings!

    add me fella HtecElite-Kenobi
    Will do.. You playing on ps4?

  40. #140
    Committee member
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by gtmatt View Post
    People keep moaning and making opinions on about the club ,where don't we just have a vote about the changes etc or this threads will go on and on ,or is the commitee keep going to ban members and restrict them
    Come again

  41. #141
    Non-member gtmatt's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashy View Post
    Come again
    Edited it , done on my phone as the website is phone friendly

  42. #142
    Committee, Treasurer, Memberships admin Ian S's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowiepete View Post
    leads to accusations of clique etc.
    The committee has never been the 'clique'. Some members have commented over the years that there have been a group of members who think they ARE the RTOC rather than part of it. This has gone on a lot longer than there's been committee.

    The whole point of the committee is to spread the workload so it's not just one person and maybe a couple of friends doing everything.

  43. #143
    Moderator Red October's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Lowiepete View Post

    The whole point is to spread the workload over as many heads as possible so that the
    post-holders are able to give it their all. Many hands etc...

    The above should go some way toward solving current issues.
    Thats the best way to achieve the common goal. Fill the roles that are empty and provide any support for the people in roles who are struggling or busy. Sort of like a gym buddy per se. We all know life is busy and sometimes it takes priority over hobbies and intrests so a role helper would make sense.

    There is so much energy and abundance in this club im sure it wont crack, fade or splinter. Its how we all channel our efforts. In moggys thread there is the answer to 99% of problems or most issues the club has.

    From someone who over the last few weeks who has become sick to death of the acrimonious whinging, perhaps there is some light in the tunnel. Good luck to all who are positively involved and the comittee

    The fact some of them are busy on here at 1.38am as I post is a testament to there commitment.

  44. #144
    Detailing Mod Lowiepete's Avatar
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    Re: Acrimonious whinging

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian S View Post
    The committee has never been the 'clique'. Some members have commented over the years that there have been a group of members who think they ARE the RTOC rather than part of it. This has gone on a lot longer than there's been committee.

    The whole point of the committee is to spread the workload so it's not just one person and maybe a couple of friends doing everything.
    Please Ian, don't take my posts out of context. Now is not the time for CMs to be on the
    defensive. The emphasis is that there have been such accusations quite vociferously
    made and under your present constitution that perception will continue, regardless of it
    being real or not. I'm not making accusations here! I'm simply commenting upon a quite
    dreadful situation as I see it. Someone with fresh eyes and dismayed by the negativity.

    As for your last sentence, again, isn't that exactly what people have perceived to have
    happened? All I've read of late is that too few people are sufficiently active. I agree with
    the spirit of what you're saying, wholeheartedly, and the suggestions I'm making are not
    attacks, but simply a different, more open, way of looking at things. We all hate change,
    but change is inevitable if the club is to move ahead. No organisation stands still and
    thrives.

    Regards,
    Steve

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