AEI programmable

[xenon]

hello everybody !
in a few days, programmable AEI will be available!
I have the full description in a few days with the exact price and options, but actually, i can say that:
description of the AEI:
- No "membrane", it will be possible to adjust or even his own advance according to the sural desired (it will not knock!)
- Possibility to incorporate a ruptor.
- A small box will be provided an option to preset three different sural, ex: 1B. 1B5 1B2
- + Various other options!

to get one, it will in addition to the payment, provide a older AEI (any model, dice the moment he has ​​the 3 connection as a 208 or 209)

the best way would I receive in a single package with all your AEI for that your package easy.

the price will be around 400€ minimum!

who would possibly be interested?

PS: AEI have been tested on a full stock GT engine level, 20hp and 30 Nm have been won.

this is for you!
I would do my best to answer your questions

PS: some pics of the AEI with a test on bench, a 5 GT full stock!!!
there curves even speaks about

[Nottswoody]

The graphs are up must be good

[jesus in the seat of a 5]

wow....... me too

[Mart]

Hi Stephane,

If this isn't like Phillipe Quillon's aeiP then is the full ignition curve completely adjustable with this programmable aei?

Which software is used? (and is there an English version).

If the aei membrane/vacuum capsule is no longer used, I guess it runs a map sensor instead? Rated to what pressure?

20hp gain from ignition mapping only?

Is €400 the exchange price? (for a 208/9)

[Brigsy]

Will it have rev limiter xenon, also maybe launch control?

[xenon]

Hi Stephane,

If this isn't like Phillipe Quillon's aeiP then is the full ignition curve completely adjustable with this programmable aei?

Which software is used? (and is there an English version).

If the aei membrane/vacuum capsule is no longer used, I guess it runs a map sensor instead? Rated to what pressure?

20hp gain from ignition mapping only?

Is €400 the exchange price? (for a 208/9)

"Hello RTOC's forum,

I'm Sébastien from GTturbo-Online.

I send you a reply from Stephane, about our Programmable AEI.

This is a plug n play AEI that replace an old 208/208 or even any other Renault's AEI with the same connectors

So yes, it's a full ignition curve programmable. You can adjust timing on a 12x12 table (RPM/MAP).

There is a Rev limiter, Boost Pressure fail safe limiter (overboost pretection), Dynamic timing advance for regular iddle, Starting timing ignition, ... All these features are adjustables.

There is no more membrane, we use an electronic MAP sensor (-1 + 1.5 bar)

Optionaly:
you can have an integrated boost controller with electronic solenoid (pluged at the old location of the detonation sensor) plug n play.
you're able to us a programmable output (shiftlight, relay to control IC water spray, ...) or input (Lunch control, Water temp sensor for upgrade timing at low temp, ...)
Map sensor up to 4 bar absolute (-1 + 3 bar)

Basicaly, we need an old unit, not broken, with all connectors inside plugs (take care on some AEI, there is not connectors on the 3 way upside connector) to build your Programmable model.

AEI programmable is supplied with English software and RS232 communication cable. You can log your ingition, pressure, rev parameters, and optionaly input or output.

Price is 450€ VAT in, for a standard programmable unit.
optional Boost controller is 100€ VAT in.
optional programmable Input or output is 30€ VAT in (give us your application)
optional upgrade boost sensor 4 bar is 30€ VAT in

What Stephane show you (dyno shot curve) was made on a really full stock ph2 GT turbo, many kilometers, just in a good condition running 130 engine bhp. We had a 15 bhp gain and 3 M.kg (19 to 22) torque gain. This model was using the integrated boost controller to help turbo keep pressure at high rev's, pressure was 0.900 bar, with no overboost at all.

Prototype AEI run in my personal GT turbo since about 1 year, made many kilometers (went to the sanglier meeting last year with it) and give great results and not any trouble for this moment.

Any question is welcome via Stephane.

Regards,

Sébastien.

[Nottswoody]

mart.. Can you explain in dummies guide for me.. I have a cam I have a vernier so can adjust timing.. Will this still benefit me? Am I correct in thinking this is all about better sparks? Nuts and bolts I can do programming I haven't got a scoobies I just like the charts going the right way.. It mentions stock engine improvements I wouldn't class mine as stock now.. Still good for me?

[Ian S]

Am I correct in thinking that in France it's not legal to use an after market stand alone ignition and fuel management system, eg, MegaSquirt, Adaptronic, Emerald, etc?

But a subtly converted RENIX unit might do?

[Mart]

mart.. Can you explain in dummies guide for me.. I have a cam I have a vernier so can adjust timing.. Will this still benefit me? Am I correct in thinking this is all about better sparks? Nuts and bolts I can do programming I haven't got a scoobies I just like the charts going the right way.. It mentions stock engine improvements I wouldn't class mine as stock now.. Still good for me?

Yes mate, it'll still be an improvement. Cam timing is more so mechanical; ie, controlling the point (degree) at which the valves open/close in respect of piston position. The vernier pulley allows that point to be shifted, in order to either take up indifferences in mechanical tolerances (eg, if the head's been skimmed, if the timing chain is worn/slightly stretched, if fabrication of the cam itself is a bit shady, etc), or to raise/lower the overall power band characteristic of the cam to help 'match' it to the turbo type you're running.

Ignition timing is, as you say, the way of controlling when the sparkplugs fire. Ideally you want the plug(s) to fire just before TDC, so that the compressed air-fuel mixture within the cylinder ignites fully literally just after the piston starts travelling down (power stroke); ie, at it's maximum pressure potential to push the piston down with the greatest possible force.

The burn time for a given fuel type & amount will always remain constant, so as rpm increases, so must the BTDC ignite point (degree) as well, to allow enough time for the mixture to fully burn. If this is too soon/early, the mixture will ignite & thus the pressure will try to push against the piston as it's still travelling up. Bad times. If you've ever suffered a cracked liner and/or piston failure (cracked ringland is a common old chestnut), this will probably be because of this.

Alternatively, if the spark is too late in the cycle, the piston will already be on the down/power stroke as the mixture ignites, thus reduced pressure pushing the piston down, resulting in loss of power, and probably a percentage of unburnt mixture being present, hence leading to high CO & HC (emissions).

The standard ecu (aei) will have a pre-programmed table of BTDC degree points of when the plug(s) should fire, based on rpm & load (hence why the aei has a tdc sensor to read crank rpm, and the vacuum capsule to measure load).

Different cams, turbos, carb jetting, etc etc aside for the moment, Renault would've programmed the Renix as optimal as can be with regards to 4-star fuel being used (as it was back then). Obviously with that not being readily available these days, we now run unleaded or super unleaded, of which the speed the air-fuel mixture ignites & burns is probably different to what 4-star was, hence now that ignition table (firing points) maybe isn't as optimal as can be.

Many other factors can affect an efficient, optimal burn as well; eg, weak spark, weak (watered down) fuel, the pressure at which the fuel is squirted into the cylinder (or in our case, that's more so regulated & controlled by the amount of air/boost going through the carb), fuel temperature, air/boost temperature, even coolant temperature. The list goes on.

And certainly when you start upping the boost. I'd imagine old Louie didn't foresee the day when some of us would be pumping double/triple the amount of boost pressure into his C1J, hence there comes a point when the firing points (referencing the load sites of the o.e ignition map) are nowhere near optimal - Now you're potentially into the realms of knocking/detonation.

We get round that by throwing more fuel in, or running a higher octane (slower to ignite & burn) fuel, or moving the tdc sensor to 'fool' the aei's trigger/ref' point that it reads from the flywheel notches, thereby subsequently altering when the aei 'sends' it's firing point signal.

However, this is where a programmable ecu (or in this case, a programmable aei) makes life a lot easier, as you can now 'amend' the firing points of the ignition table (map), using your laptop/ecu's software, to take into account the increase in boost, or a different octane fuel being used, etc etc, and going back to what I mentioned about 4-star fuel, it doesn't surprise the French guys found the gain they did when mapping on 'unleaded/super' fuel; ie, they've simply optimised the ignition (firing point) for the fuel being used.

Hope that helps

[Tony Walker]

[chris]

Excellent reply mart

[Mart]

Stephane, thanks to you & Sebastian for the reply

Fantastic what you guys have achieved with the aei but €450 is too hot for me, especially with the likes of Megasquirt/spark & NoDiz being cheaper, and offer more functionality & 'toys'.

If you could supply the aeiP at half that price, with the 4bar sensor & programmable input/output thrown in as well, I think you'd get a lot more business from this side of the water...but of course, that's my humble opinion, and I'm probably wrong

[LiamR]

Top reply Mart

Can a mod put that reply in the FAQ's or in the articles section please?

[Nottswoody]

I can feel divorce coming on... More money needed

[TNT ANDY]

The burn time for a given fuel type & amount will always remain constant, so as rpm increases, so must the BTDC ignite point (degree) as well, to allow enough time for the mixture to fully burn. If this is too soon/early, the mixture will ignite & thus the pressure will try to push against the piston as it's still travelling up. Bad times. If you've ever suffered a cracked liner and/or piston failure (cracked ringland is a common old chestnut), this will probably be because of this.

Interesting - Would too much ignition advance necessarily lead to knock?

[TopCat]

Shouldn't have VAT on it if you're not in UK.

[Nad-5GTT]

Great read Mart. I feel educated after that

[r5_scotty]

I thought it was Stephen fry writing that! Can't belive it was mart. Great little write up

[Mart]

Can't belive it was mart

Not sure how to take that?

[Mart]

Interesting - Would too much ignition advance necessarily lead to knock?

The answer is in the bit you quoted.

[Matt Cole]

Excellent this. Think all GT owners with standard ignition set up should look at this.

[TNT ANDY]

The answer is in the bit you quoted.

No it's not lol, it says you would get damage, but would you here knock prior to that? The resson I ask is that I have a massive amount of advance wot with no signs of knock. Scoff was feeling very uneasy lol. Sorry, massive hijack - back on topic.

[GTphil]

knock is a symptom of pre-ignition and that means it's happening to early and as Mart says early to a point the piston is still travelling upwards but at the same time as the fuel/air ignites it's being pushed back down.

[GTphil]

pre-ignition and ignition advance are different, pre-ignition is the fuel air being ignited before the spark plug sparks, advancing the ignition means you make the spark happen earlier, both can lead to knock.

[Scoff]

Shouldn't have VAT on it if you're not in UK.

Yes it should, we're in the EU

[Scoff]

PS, this looks like a good system Is the software free ? It would be good to take a look

[GTphil]

Detonation (knock) is caused by the pressure inside the combustion chamber being to high usually from fuel/air that's either burned unevenly or at the wrong point of the piston stroke and it creates shockwaves that give it the "pinging" sound, and both pre-ignition and ignition advance can cause it to happen. If your engine isn't knocking with ignition advance then it won't cause any damage. The more you advance the ignition the closer you get to knocking. Hence why scoff was probably uneasy about using loads of advance. You know how he hates his rollers getting dirty

[Mart]

No it's not lol, it says you would get damage, but would you here knock prior to that? The resson I ask is that I have a massive amount of advance wot with no signs of knock. Scoff was feeling very uneasy lol. Sorry, massive hijack - back on topic.

Certainly if the plug is firing way advanced of its optimal BTDC point & subsequently causing knock to take place, then yeah, it's possible you'd hear the 'metallic ticking' noise taking place. It's not always audible though, and there's an old adage that says by the time you do hear it, the damage has probably already been done.

Saying that, some engines do run on-or-slightly over the threshold of detonation, hence it's not always 100% destructive(*). I guess each engine reacts differently to it. Certainly from a C1J point of view though, they don't like it, and the aforementioned adage is certainly applicable there.


Phil, pre-ignition is more so spontaneous combustion of the mixture without a spark present; eg, if the spark-plug tip was getting too hot (incorrect heat range), or any high-points on the piston/valve which could retain extreme heat, then either of those scenarios could cause the fuel to ignite.

* I remember my dad's old Cortina 'ticked' its nuts off for years & never suffered any engine failures. It also had the other symptom associated with pre-ignition; 'run-on', which was great amusement

[TopCat]

Yes it should, we're in the EU

Vat is UK only mate, hence why people go to France for cheap booze and fags.

If you are registered for VAT in the UK and receive goods from EU countries (known as acquisitions) you will normally pay VAT at the time the goods enter the UK.

100% no way you can be charged VAT by eu countries.

[Scoff]

Andy's refering to his last mapping session here Mart. Something about his engine ment that it wanted and tolerated more timing than I'd normally give a C1J. Russell Thorpes was another example but he later found that it had a very low compression ratio. Andy was sure he didn't have low compression though.

I used to have a firm set of theories I stuck to before I got in to this trade but now I come across exceptions to those rules almost weekly. One of the things I would have found hard to believe even 2 years ago is that 2 ostensibly similar engines can have very different knock thresholds! Small changes in CR, cam choice, cam timing, it all has a much bigger effect than the rules of thumb would have you believe.

Each custom GTT wants a different timing curve to get the best out of it, and some need more total timing than others. Some will detonate very easilly, others do not. Tuning them properly without good knock detection is a lottery.

The C1J cylinder head is piss poor by modern standards as we all know, and that means they need a lot more advance than a modern engine. Some tuners who are not used to the C1J have commented on how crazy it feels to be giving an engine 27deg of advance at 1.5bar of boost! But if you know the C1J you know that it's perfectly normal with good fuel.

All the more reason to have a good programmable AEI like this

[Scoff]

Vat is UK only mate, hence why people go to France for cheap booze and fags.

If you are registered for VAT in the UK and receive goods from EU countries (known as acquisitions) you will normally pay VAT at the time the goods enter the UK.

100% no way you can be charged VAT by eu countries.

I import 10000's of £ worth of stock each year from the EU and USA, I know how the system works

If you are an individual (not a VAT registered entity) then you WILL pay tax (VAT, although some EU countries call it something different). They will add it at the time of sale just as if they were selling to someone in their own country.

If you are a VAT registerd business and you buy from another VAT registered business elsewhere in the EU then you do not have to pay VAT if you can provide to them your VAT number.

I think you are confusing this with what happens if you buy from outside of the EU, like the USA.

[Mart]

Hi Chris,

Sorry mate, I wasn't saying or implying there was knock present on Andy's engine. Far from it buddy. I was replying back in the generic term about if a plug was firing way too advanced of the optimal BTDC point, then it could/would induce knock.

As you say, small mechanical changes/indifferences can resultantly have a bigger effect when it comes to ign' mapping an engine, in the same way that re-jetting a 32dis/fudging the aei the same on 2 given, apparent, same spec C1J's would probably give slightly different results. It's amazing how so many engines survived running the tuner 150main/100ac jetted 'grp A' carb's back in the day, but that's another time & place. Thanks Roland

Do you map with a steth', or electronic means, for knock detection? If the latter, care to share what you use (PM if you like). Like my memory, my ears are shot as well hence I'm on the look-out for a 'box'.

[Trevhib]

What a fabulous thread

Just on the VAT thing. As an individual, I think import duty on goods is the same no matter which country you're importing from. Anything over about £15 in value is subject to it AFAIK.

I buy some dermo-cream for the Mrs from an online pharmacy occasionally. Their business is registered outside of the EU. I now have to buy one tube at a time instead of two in order to keep the total cost under the import duty threshold, since the HMRC lowered it recently

[Scoff]

Yeah, I was more or less just expanding on what you were saying mart. You are speaking sense as usual.

Since we're not in general chat I'll post up what I use for knock detection! It's a comercial "knock box", an australian product I think, most pro's use them but I found it was still hard to hear the very early signs of knock, especially in a stripped out racer with no sound proofing of which I do a lot ! I ditched the headphones and instead mounted a small 0.5w plastic cone (weather proof type) speaker in to a small project box. The speaker is air-tight sealed against the inside of the box. Then I have a hole in the box on the side with the speaker with a bit of 8mm nylon tube coming out of it connected to a short run of silicone pipe to a stethoscope. This way I can use the stethoscope to block out external noise much better than headphones can, and the steth seems to work well at knock frequencies so it helps to further cut back on the other noises - valve train, piston slap, etc.

In the case of the C1J and other wet liner engines you should listen to the cylinder head, not the block.

Another tip is to always listen for knock at the lowest possible volume you can. Your ears can discriminate much better at low volume. An old producer trick

[Mart]

Yeah, I was more or less just expanding on what you were saying mart. You are speaking sense as usual.

Since we're not in general chat I'll post up what I use for knock detection! It's a comercial "knock box", an australian product I think, most pro's use them but I found it was still hard to hear the very early signs of knock, especially in a stripped out racer with no sound proofing of which I do a lot ! I ditched the headphones and instead mounted a small 0.5w plastic cone (weather proof type) speaker in to a small project box. The speaker is air-tight sealed against the inside of the box. Then I have a hole in the box on the side with the speaker with a bit of 8mm nylon tube coming out of it connected to a short run of silicone pipe to a stethoscope. This way I can use the stethoscope to block out external noise much better than headphones can, and the steth seems to work well at knock frequencies so it helps to further cut back on the other noises - valve train, piston slap, etc.

In the case of the C1J and other wet liner engines you should listen to the cylinder head, not the block.

Another tip is to always listen for knock at the lowest possible volume you can. Your ears can discriminate much better at low volume. An old producer trick

Love the modification to the knock box Very clever

[TopCat]

I import 10000's of £ worth of stock each year from the EU and USA, I know how the system works

If you are an individual (not a VAT registered entity) then you WILL pay tax (VAT, although some EU countries call it something different). They will add it at the time of sale just as if they were selling to someone in their own country.

If you are a VAT registerd business and you buy from another VAT registered business elsewhere in the EU then you do not have to pay VAT if you can provide to them your VAT number.

I think you are confusing this with what happens if you buy from outside of the EU, like the USA.

Scoff I stand corrected (Said the man in the orthopaedic shoes) as long as they're are VAT registered then the can charge VAT. I'm genuinely shocked I've never had this issue before (been importing/exporting) spares worldwide for nearly 8 years... Lol

I knew the VAT system in UK- But had no idea EU countries can be VAT registered. I've not been adding VAT to EU customers :/ will be now!

[Scoff]

What a fabulous thread

Just on the VAT thing. As an individual, I think import duty on goods is the same no matter which country you're importing from. Anything over about £15 in value is subject to it AFAIK.

Not from Europe Trevor, that is the point. They add VAT at their end, to be paid in their country just as if we were a French citizen. We add nothing during the import.

Anything outside of the EU needs to have the usual CN22/CN23 form declaring value, etc, and our border people will add duty and VAT just like you describe. I think there is a £15 threshold for goods and £36 for gifts, or something like that. None of this applies to France.

[Trevhib]

Ah, thanks for clarifying Chris, that makes a lot of sense. It's good to know these things

[Scoff]

I've not been adding VAT to EU customers :/ will be now!

Ouch At least from now on you should not be out of pocket. The rules were very different before the EU trading laws of course. We can do the same, and supply goods VAT free to EU but they must supply you (and you should verify) their VAT number.

[TopCat]

Ouch At least from now on you should not be out of pocket. The rules were very different before the EU trading laws of course. We can do the same, and supply goods VAT free to EU but they must supply you (and you should verify) their VAT number.

Ouch to say the least lol. Luckily I've just found they are VAT registered. So luckily I'm not out of pocket!

You're spot on for clearing that up. Please excuse my ignorance.

[Mart]

Stephane/Sebastien, is there any way you could make the price lower? How about an RTOC group buy, or cash in hand discount at Sangliers event?

[*Yellow*]

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

I also would be interested if something could be done on price.

Sounds great bit of kit.

[xenon]

Stephane/Sebastien, is there any way you could make the price lower? How about an RTOC group buy, or cash in hand discount at Sangliers event?

hello Mart!
I transmit your request ace Sebastien!
I would broadcast you these answers.

[Nottswoody]

Not sure how to take that?

I wouldn't know iv been ignoring him since 1996

[xenon]

Stephane/Sebastien, is there any way you could make the price lower? How about an RTOC group buy, or cash in hand discount at Sangliers event?

Hello Mart,

I'm Sébastien, logged with Stephane's account.

First thing, i must say thanks for what a big post on ignition advance. That's a good point of vue, and i must say we have the same.

Our programmable AEI are a complex piece that needs many hours to produce, but also needed many work to develop. Components are not cheap parts we deal the lower price we can, but the best quality we think is good for this. This is why we can't cut half price, because this is under our balancing price.

We tried to make the best price we can on this product, but we're not closed to a group price.

This will be annonced in a few days, with agrement of my business partner AM2B, but we will need a few quantity to deal.

First serie of 10 AEI are all sold before we had time to make offer them to our customers, but there will be soon a 20 units serie ready. (Stephane and his friends needs 4 or 5 units)

About this products, any questions are welcome, just let me know by e-mail, or via Stéphane here.

I'll be at the Sanglier, so no problem if you want to talk about it.

Thanks for reading.

P.S: About VAT, you have to pay VAT in France if you buy in France. You will not be charged English VAT because we're in UE. If you have a regular VAT number (you're professional) i can sell VAT out from France, but you will have to custom clear the parcel in UK.

EDIT: I post the dynocharts. Dark bleu is 209, Clear is AEI programmable. Same GT turbo, Same boost, just different ignition + Inside boost controller 0.900 bar.

[Mart]

Sébastien, thanks again for the reply.

I'm sure there'll be great interest if you could lower that price somewhat, so please keep us posted.

Is there any chance we could have a look (download) the software?

What's the ignition degrees range?

Is it possible to live-map this aei, and likewise log & review the data you mention in real-time? (with a laptop connected of course).

And from an 'extra feature' point of view, is flat-shifting (full-throttle) possible?

[jesus in the seat of a 5]

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

I also would be interested if something could be done on price.

Sounds great bit of kit.

me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....

[xenon]

Sébastien, thanks again for the reply.

I'm sure there'll be great interest if you could lower that price somewhat, so please keep us posted.

Is there any chance we could have a look (download) the software? Software will be sended with the AEI, we haven't uploaded it.

What's the ignition degrees range? 0 to 360

Is it possible to live-map this aei, and likewise log & review the data you mention in real-time? (with a laptop connected of course). Live-mapping is ok, live log and registered logs availables with a laptop, no problem! this means user can change all values real time (change ignition degrees, pressure, rev limit, ...) all is real time programmable.

And from an 'extra feature' point of view, is flat-shifting (full-throttle) possible? Yes. With optional input, you can fitt a brake pedal sensor on the clutch pedal. plug 1 wire to the ground, the other to the AEI Input. Then you can program a RPM value if clutch pedal is push down, when the ignition will be negative. this will slow the engine when your pedal is press down, and you can shift! Each gear change will give your exhaust a big "powww" like clio cup with a sequential gearbox.
This is just an exemple, many features can be possible.

We can also make a specific Unit, on demande. but this will take a bit more time to produce, and add some more connectors to this unit. But regarding to what an EFI can do, we're far than the Stock AEI unit we would look like...

Thanks for reading,

Sébastien.

Thanks

[Mart]

One last question Do you retain any form of knock control?

[Brigsy]

This actually sounds very appealing with all these features