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  1. #1
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Fluffy aint right - Formally 'It's national Scoff Day'

    Well it is for me.

    Off to get re-mapped after adjusting my cam timing from 129 deg back to Pipers 112deg. Should make a nice bit of difference fingers crossed.
    Last edited by TNT ANDY; 12-07-2012 at 06:12.

  2. #2
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    good stuff andy look forward to seeing the results

  3. #3
    Non-member GTphil's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    My guess is you will most probably be astonished at the difference

    Hope it all goes to plan

  4. #4
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    adjusting my cam timing from 129 deg

  5. #5
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    I know, it was a re- grind me thinks. I've been running this like this for about 6 or 7 years LMFAO.

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    Non-member Markey Mark (BD)'s Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    At 129deg thats almost like the cam was a tooth out

  7. #7
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Don't break the dyno, I'm booked in tomorrow

  8. #8
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    how did you get on with this andy?

  9. #9
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Oh dear oh dear oh dear

    Not a good day.

    Started @ 5 am Saturday finished at 1am this morning. To say I am dissapointed is an undertatement! The golden figure I have is 193 bhp which is 10 bhp from what I rolled out with last time. Not only that, I now have leaky oil issues from the timing chain cover, a stripped thread on the vernier, the vernier has some play in it also on the end of the cam and a weeping head gasket.

    It doesn't rev well either.

    So all in all - a pretty **** day.

    10/10 for Scoff again though, he didn't turn me away and we cracked on until we'd tried everything we could. I have some more measuring to do in respect to breathing, the cam may be worn or there may be some restriction in the exhaust. Another thought I have had is that the TB may be too small. I've gone for a 40mm TB.

    Time to do some research!

  10. #10
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashy View Post
    Don't break the dyno, I'm booked in tomorrow
    with 194 bhp I seriously doubt it. It's a bit dirty now though - Sorry Scoff

    Hope yours gets on ok.

  11. #11
    Committee Member
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Sorry to hear that andy am sure you will get it sorted tho. If your after a throttle.bodie why not consider a rover k series 48mm one they are very cheap to buy.

  12. #12
    Non-member JP Racing's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Bugger thats not good mate now mine is close to being done i could give you a few Tuesday nights helping out. Will also help put some miles on mine

  13. #13
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT View Post
    Sorry to hear that andy am sure you will get it sorted tho. If your after a throttle.bodie why not consider a rover k series 48mm one they are very cheap to buy.
    I have a lancia 60mm TB which will bolt straight on, I need to do a bit of research to see if that's the right way to go before just sticking it on.

  14. #14
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by JP Racing View Post
    Bugger thats not good mate now mine is close to being done i could give you a few Tuesday nights helping out. Will also help put some miles on mine
    LOL - I've got a bit of cleaning up to do and a few oil leaks to sort out now, also measure the cam lift as that may be a problem also. Feel free to pop over, It'll be great to see ol' spidey on the road again.

  15. #15
    Super Administrator R5MJH's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    Oh dear oh dear oh dear

    Not a good day.

    Started @ 5 am Saturday finished at 1am this morning. To say I am dissapointed is an undertatement! The golden figure I have is 193 bhp which is 10 bhp from what I rolled out with last time. Not only that, I now have leaky oil issues from the timing chain cover, a stripped thread on the vernier, the vernier has some play in it also on the end of the cam and a weeping head gasket.

    It doesn't rev well either.

    So all in all - a pretty **** day.

    10/10 for Scoff again though, he didn't turn me away and we cracked on until we'd tried everything we could. I have some more measuring to do in respect to breathing, the cam may be worn or there may be some restriction in the exhaust. Another thought I have had is that the TB may be too small. I've gone for a 40mm TB.

    Time to do some research!
    Bollox mate ain't it after all the effort are ya taking the engine out again

  16. #16
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    im pretty sure i read 60mm might be too big for a c1j, am sure scoff will put me right though, another one to consider which is between the 2 we have mentioned is again off the k series this time off the mgzr160 which is 52mm

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    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    I have a lancia 60mm TB which will bolt straight on, I need to do a bit of research to see if that's the right way to go before just sticking it on.
    Honestly fella, I think the cam will be the problem not the size of the throttle body, just look how much power people are getting through a 25mm carb.

    I had the 60mm lancia throttle body on mine and all it did was make the power delivery very snappy and not nice to drive round town. I'd stick with the body u got and get that cam out and measured properly

  18. #18
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by R5MJH View Post
    Bollox mate ain't it after all the effort are ya taking the engine out again
    Woooaaahhh! Steady fella - yes the engine will be coming out, but not yet. I'm gonna look at the cam and various other bits for the time being. I've been all too quick in the past to whip it out on an arbetry whim.

  19. #19
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Hey andy just a thought would a piper 300 cam be better suited if ur doing alot of track days.

  20. #20
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT View Post
    im pretty sure i read 60mm might be too big for a c1j, am sure scoff will put me right though, another one to consider which is between the 2 we have mentioned is again off the k series this time off the mgzr160 which is 52mm
    I'm gonna have a look around for guidance on this point. I thought that 40mm would be more than enough, but that's just going off random comments here and there. If it is too small and the Lancia one is too big then I will be hunting an MGZR one down. That said - I do have a 45mm Laguna one to go on. Hmmmmmmm

  21. #21
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT View Post
    Hey andy just a thought would a piper 300 cam be better suited if ur doing alot of track days.
    Possibly - mine might be absolutely fooked, a standard one may be better LOL. I believe the Cat Cam as in the Cam wizard is the one to go for.

  22. #22
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    All this said - my turbo was designed and built for 200bhp - I'll get the exact specs up and see what people think. I may just have maxed it out.

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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Whats your turbo then fella might be able upgrade it quite easily

  24. #24
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    bad luck fella, looks like the curse of the EFI C1J has struck again, oli had similar issues but he just gave up

    what i recon u need is an AEM uego and a tubular manifold to build it back up with again

  25. #25
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    bad luck fella, looks like the curse of the EFI C1J has struck again, oli had similar issues but he just gave up

    what i recon u need is an AEM uego and a tubular manifold to build it back up with again
    I didn't give up completely, I got it working but decided it no longer suited what I wanted from the car

  26. #26
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT View Post
    Whats your turbo then fella might be able upgrade it quite easily
    it's a T28 - but the spec is not known atm. it's got a 55 trim and that's all I know atm.

  27. #27
    Non-member philr5t's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    bad luck fella, looks like the curse of the EFI C1J has struck again, oli had similar issues but he just gave up

    what i recon u need is an AEM uego and a tubular manifold to build it back up with again
    I'm not to have any probs yet with c1j efi on a vnt mate with a little bit more work Andy your get it doing what you want it to do efi the only way forward for a c1j in my mind ask Marky mark took him out for a spin the other day and I think he was impressed how well it was going

  28. #28
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by philr5t View Post
    I'm not to have any probs yet with c1j efi on a vnt mate with a little bit more work Andy your get it doing what you want it to do efi the only way forward for a c1j in my mind ask Marky mark took him out for a spin the other day and I think he was impressed how well it was going
    Hi Phil - glad yours is going well, Scoff did mention you yesterday, I don't think you've been to him, but he keeps his eyes peeled on all things EFi.

  29. #29
    Honorary Member Miller's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Efi is worth the initial hassle, Emma car has done over 50,000 miles from when I done it.

    I will be converting my 5 in the winter as I have all the parts to do it now.

    Chris

  30. #30
    Non-member philr5t's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    Hi Phil - glad yours is going well, Scoff did mention you yesterday, I don't think you've been to him, but he keeps his eyes peeled on all things EFi.
    Hi Andy yes I have been to see scoff he basically done all my loom put it on a base map, then an oil change then all the full throttle mapping I have not been back to scoff since he finished mine in may but at the mo all seems well just have one small prob that I caused but I'll soon get round that I will try and get back up to Chris late this year or next year for some more mapping with hopefully a more advanced and modified turbo unit To get more power just wish scoff could move down south

    What power do you wanna try and get to mate

  31. #31
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Well fook me, I think I've got it. If Im reading stuff right, God only knows what has happened to my cam, but I've checked lift on 1,2,3 and 4 and I'm only seeing 6.5mm of lift

    I thought I'd bought a piper 285 many moons ago, it came in a piper 285 box and looked legit, but it can't have been.

  32. #32
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by philr5t View Post
    Hi Andy yes I have been to see scoff he basically done all my loom put it on a base map, then an oil change then all the full throttle mapping I have not been back to scoff since he finished mine in may but at the mo all seems well just have one small prob that I caused but I'll soon get round that I will try and get back up to Chris late this year or next year for some more mapping with hopefully a more advanced and modified turbo unit To get more power just wish scoff could move down south

    What power do you wanna try and get to mate
    I've had a shade over 200 bhp, which felt great, but Scoff was not happy how hard it was to achieve this. I guess my aim is not how much power do I want, but more get it running as it should. And that's why I go the extra 250 miles and take it to Scoff, because he knows the difference between a well set up 5 and those that are not well set up. I bet if I went to any local RR, they would be over the moon in getting 193 bhp out of a 1.4 8v push rod engine.

  33. #33
    South West Regional Rep Alastair's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Hope the cam sorts it Andy, I use a 50mm single jenvy body and it is excellent, perfectly matched to the engine IMO.

    Not too expensive either! your welcome to come for a spin at ND and see what you think mate

  34. #34
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
    Hope the cam sorts it Andy, I use a 50mm single jenvy body and it is excellent, perfectly matched to the engine IMO.

    Not too expensive either! your welcome to come for a spin at ND and see what you think mate
    That would be great if I could and the standard cam is 7.5mm lift, so I can't see why it wouldn't. Scoff kept saying ' it's just not breathing right'

  35. #35
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    That would be great if I could and the standard cam is 7.5mm lift, so I can't see why it wouldn't. Scoff kept saying ' it's just not breathing right'
    Where did u get this cam from Andy? Has someone sold u a campus job maybe?

  36. #36
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    Where did u get this cam from Andy? Has someone sold u a campus job maybe?
    CTM enginneering in Essex - a long time ago with Handy.

    I seem to remember it being in piper box and everything, it all looked legit.

    Handy may be able to shed some light on this.

  37. #37
    Non-member GTphil's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Have the lobes ground down over time maybe??

    Did you use new followers or at least have them checked first?

    Just clutching at straws really!

    Needs to come out and be looked are

  38. #38
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by GTphil View Post
    Have the lobes ground down over time maybe??

    Did you use new followers or at least have them checked first?

    Just clutching at straws really!

    Needs to come out and be looked are
    New followers used - I'd say 4mm of wear is a bit more than I would expect.

    It'll be coming out alright, I'll get some photo's up once it's out.

    Just to put the record straight - I don't think CTM have sold me a crap cam TBH, I might be wrong, but it's been in for near on 7 years and there are far too many factors to consider before suggesting that that may be the case. I know what I've got at the moment and I'm going to go forward from there.

    Anyway - back on topic please.

  39. #39
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Hi Andy, is that 6.x mm of lift at the valve or pushrod ? Rocker ratio is 1.5:1 so you must multiply cam lift by 1.5.

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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    sorry you didnt get the results you were after Andy

    firstly your throttle bodie should not be a problem although , you need to measure your boost pipe dia, for best flow throttle should be same size or slightly bigger than the rest of the boost system in the ideal world the engine will take what it takes ,but by flow matching the dia, there is no bottle necks to over come

    secondly according to pipercams you should have somewhere around 9.96mm of lift inlet/9.91mm exhaust, they do vary a bit,but i dont think for one minute your cams are 285 profile they should be stamped on the end with bp 285 etc , i also didnt think the 285 profile was a re porfiled cam, i asumed they where all cut from blanks either way that profile should be more than upto the job for the power your after , a bp300 cam might be to much unless you want to run a bigger turbo more airflow/boost and a better flowing manifold system with less reversion /pulsing issues (a well designed tubular will help here) overlap might still be a problem, but for country roads, will be more laggy and a bit boring

    your turbo might also be a restriction, what were your air temps and egt temps on the rollers, your exhaust is 2 1/2"diameter system, so thats not the problem ,regardlesss of the twin silencer set up.

    if it were me , i would whip the cam out and get a dial gauge on it before you do anything,(surprised you did'nt do that before you fitted it to be honest then go from there, a 285 cam, if it turns out its not that profile, then a power run. with out measuring the turbo its difficult to say what to do next after that, but in most cases the cam alone should get you the magic 200bhp,although air temps/egt will tell you how well ithe engine is coping at that power level.

    you might need to increase turbine size/change trim to help flow exhaust better, stop it from bottle necking /backing up, fitting that tubular will help as well, make sure you get it braced , as it will help prevent cracking

  41. #41
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    Hi Andy, is that 6.x mm of lift at the valve or pushrod ? Rocker ratio is 1.5:1 so you must multiply cam lift by 1.5.
    That's Pushrod that was which gives us the magic 9mm. Smeg, thought I'd solved it then.

  42. #42
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    you might still have. BP285 should have 9.9mm so 6.6mm required at the pushrod. If you DTI at the valve remember to take in to account valve clearance, so maybe 9.7mm to be expected there.

  43. #43
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by HAndy View Post
    sorry you didnt get the results you were after Andy

    firstly your throttle bodie should not be a problem although , you need to measure your boost pipe dia, for best flow throttle should be same size or slightly bigger than the rest of the boost system in the ideal world the engine will take what it takes ,but by flow matching the dia, there is no bottle necks to over come

    secondly according to pipercams you should have somewhere around 9.96mm of lift inlet/9.91mm exhaust, they do vary a bit,but i dont think for one minute your cams are 285 profile they should be stamped on the end with bp 285 etc , i also didnt think the 285 profile was a re porfiled cam, i asumed they where all cut from blanks either way that profile should be more than upto the job for the power your after , a bp300 cam might be to much unless you want to run a bigger turbo more airflow/boost and a better flowing manifold system with less reversion /pulsing issues (a well designed tubular will help here) overlap might still be a problem, but for country roads, will be more laggy and a bit boring

    your turbo might also be a restriction, what were your air temps and egt temps on the rollers, your exhaust is 2 1/2"diameter system, so thats not the problem ,regardlesss of the twin silencer set up.

    if it were me , i would whip the cam out and get a dial gauge on it before you do anything,(surprised you did'nt do that before you fitted it to be honest then go from there, a 285 cam, if it turns out its not that profile, then a power run. with out measuring the turbo its difficult to say what to do next after that, but in most cases the cam alone should get you the magic 200bhp,although air temps/egt will tell you how well ithe engine is coping at that power level.

    you might need to increase turbine size/change trim to help flow exhaust better, stop it from bottle necking /backing up, fitting that tubular will help as well, make sure you get it braced , as it will help prevent cracking
    Cheers Andy - I think it might be the turbo - I've emailed CR Turbo's, lets see what they come back with in regard to my turbo and it may be that that is on it's limit.

  44. #44
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    you might still have. BP285 should have 9.9mm so 6.6mm required at the pushrod. If you DTI at the valve remember to take in to account valve clearance, so maybe 9.7mm to be expected there.
    I'll go and have another crack at it, I'll measure at the valve.

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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    Cheers Andy - I think it might be the turbo - I've emailed CR Turbo's, lets see what they come back with in regard to my turbo and it may be that that is on it's limit.

    regardless what CR Turbo's tell you, the real test of truth will be in the rr print out, it will give you an idea of whats happening along the curve,your air temps /egt temps will give you a good idea of where things are going wrong, Cr will only be able to give you a ball park figure for your engine , after that its quess work, you might aswell bend over and have the full hot air treatment

  46. #46
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    you might still have. BP285 should have 9.9mm so 6.6mm required at the pushrod. If you DTI at the valve remember to take in to account valve clearance, so maybe 9.7mm to be expected there.
    Yup they are all up at the 9.4 - 9.9 lift on the back of the valve spring cap thingy. My DTI is not overly accurate, but I'm reasonably happy that it is a 285.

    I'll post up the turbo spec as soon as I've got it and see what everyone thinks. Thanks for your help.

  47. #47
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    If its a 285cam then the turbo is the next logical step

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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Quote Originally Posted by Miller View Post
    Efi is worth the initial hassle, Emma car has done over 50,000 miles from when I done it.

    I will be converting my 5 in the winter as I have all the parts to do it now.

    Chris
    Ahem....

  49. #49
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    Right, got a response from cr turbo's. I don't actually have a T28, what I do have is a GT2560R. This +ight explain a thing or 2.

    I'm not overly convinced this Is true, so I'll have the turbo off and measure that also.
    Last edited by TNT ANDY; 09-07-2012 at 14:24.

  50. #50
    Non-member Brigsy's Avatar
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    Re: It's national Scoff Day

    What size rear do you have? If its a proper gt2560r you should see over 200 easily??

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