R5 GTTurbo 2

[HAndy]

The last time I spoke with Tony (fishead) was the end of June and he hadn't got round to doing anything with it as yet, I think he has been busy with other things this year.. although it'll be strange when I see it on the road especially if I've bought another R5.

As for the suspension, I would probably echo Chris's thoughts although my old 5 was a little lighter without the turbo & supercharger so my rates were a little softer. From memory I think I was running 275 at the rear and 180's at the front. What shocks are you using I assume they're adjustable, are they turned right up (hard)? As for camber I always ran 0deg on the front as I had plenty of turn in and about 1.5deg on the rear. The toe was slightly in for stability and was never measured, I used a straight piece of metal and made sure when placed across the face of the wheel it touched the same bit of bodykit or was x amount of mm from the bodykit each side if that makes sense. I don't think it will do any harm going too hard if you have comfy seats especially if you're going on the track, the balance is the important thing it really is a case of feeling the best handling as you're entering new boundary's

I did read a good way of checking if your car is working well in cornering and that is to find an open space of tarmac and chaulk a circle with a 50m radius (use a piece of string) then time yourself around the circle then make an adjustment and time again if you make quite radical changes you should see which way you need to go with your adjustments then start to fine tune. Make sure the person doing the timing is standing far enough back or in your car

thankyou for the input Andy,glad to know you've got another 5

[Scoff]

I think I ran standard "front" camber at the rear andy, whatever that is. Definately 0° at the front though, else the turn in ability greatly out weighs the rears ability to stick ! Once I was happy with the settings I felt a lot more confident chucking the car about. In the damp it would start to understeer just about the same time as the back end would start to get free, but it was quite controllable. With standard front angles it was lethal in the wet. I spun it I don't know how many times, thankfully I had the sense not to push the car if there was any other traffic about. I stoved the front end in to armco once through, had to graft a whole new section in just in front of the turrets

[Os8472]

I think I ran standard "front" camber at the rear andy, whatever that is. Definately 0° at the front though, else the turn in ability greatly out weighs the rears ability to stick ! Once I was happy with the settings I felt a lot more confident chucking the car about. In the damp it would start to understeer just about the same time as the back end would start to get free, but it was quite controllable. With standard front angles it was lethal in the wet. I spun it I don't know how many times, thankfully I had the sense not to push the car if there was any other traffic about. I stoved the front end in to armco once through, had to graft a whole new section in just in front of the turrets

I remember reading about that bump in PFC back when it was PGTi

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Turbo 1/2 (model code 8220 and 8221) alignment figures for road.

Front Camber=0 deg +/- 30.
Rear camber=2 deg +/- 30.
Front KPI =14deg 20sec.
Front castor 10deg roughly for all permissable H values.
Front Toe= -10 +/-1. or (1mm +/- 1mm).
Rear toe= -0 deg25sec +/-10sec (-2.5mm +/-1mm).

Hope this helps.

[c7borg]

thankyou for the input Andy,glad to know you've got another 5

Ohh not yet.. but I am looking.. just need to sell my campervan first though

[Scoff]

I remember reading about that bump in PFC back when it was PGTi

Yeah, I had to weld a whole new front end on so I could get to the brunters gig ! Shame they don't do those anymore.

Those numbers make interesting reading matt, good info

[T.K]

I think I remember that day at Brunters Scoff. Good times.

[HAndy]

Turbo 1/2 (model code 8220 and 8221) alignment figures for road.

Front Camber=0 deg +/- 30.
Rear camber=2 deg +/- 30.
Front KPI =14deg 20sec.
Front castor 10deg roughly for all permissable H values.
Front Toe= -10 +/-1. or (1mm +/- 1mm).
Rear toe= -0 deg25sec +/-10sec (-2.5mm +/-1mm).

Hope this helps.

thanks matt really good info there

[TNT ANDY]

Congrats to Handy - made front cover and 6 page spread in PPC this month.

[Mr Raider]

Well done Handy,- saw preview in this months PPC!

[mattk]

I'll be purchasing a copy this weekend

[5teve L]

I'll be purchasing a copy this weekend

I'll be picking mine up as well

[mattk]

I'll be picking mine up as well

Gutted couldn't find a copy anywhere

oh well have to wait till next weekend

[Jeff Ninebar]

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

I've not noticed the project section of the board before today so not seen this thread on this R5 before today either, I got a copy of PPC mag yesterday just for this car. To stumble across this project thread today is a real treat.

Love the car, well done.

[mattk]

Just read the six page spread on your car , looking forward to seeing this badboy back on the road

[TNT ANDY]

Just read the six page spread on your car , looking forward to seeing this badboy back on the road

Final mapping on Thursday for this wee beasty! - Sorry Andy, can't make it. I need the holiday to get mine mapped over with Scoff later this month. I'll look forward to the report on this. I'll get over in the evening on Thursday unless you want to stretch it's legs.

[Os8472]

Final mapping on Thursday for this wee beasty! - Sorry Andy, can't make it. I need the holiday to get mine mapped over with Scoff later this month. I'll look forward to the report on this. I'll get over in the evening on Thursday unless you want to stretch it's legs.

It's wet out Andy, you know full well he won't take it out in the wet.

Will be interesting to see the results though

[mattk]

Final mapping on Thursday for this wee beasty! - Sorry Andy, can't make it. I need the holiday to get mine mapped over with Scoff later this month. I'll look forward to the report on this. I'll get over in the evening on Thursday unless you want to stretch it's legs.

Fantastic look forward to seeing the results mate

[markey b]

where can you buy PPC then? havn't seen it on my travels

[Os8472]

where can you buy PPC then? havn't seen it on my travels

Tesco's or the Esso garage in thefthood

[TNT ANDY]

Final mapping today?

[HAndy]

indeedy

more boost and a play around with the cams and see what differences the throttle body and bigger chargecooler have made, really would like to see 400bhp this time, air temps should'nt be a problem

wish me luck

[mattk]

Hope it goes well today buddy good luck

[markey b]

any numbers? i text both andys but no reply, i'm either being ignored or they are busy with each other.... or at burger king of course

[TNT ANDY]

Hi Marky

Yes, got your text but was driving at the time and this has reminded me to text you back lol.

He's still missing some ponnies @ 300bhp

[mattk]

300hp is still good tbh in a little 5

Do you reckon there is more to come andy or are you happy?

[HAndy]

my goal is still 400hp , but im just not getting there at the mo
air intake temps are still 58-64 degrees @21 psi , and the engine is still not going more than 303 bhp/289ftlb

boost goes up like a rocket from 3000 rpm t0 4400 rpm then the curve leans out but doesn't drop of till 6000 rpm, ive got issues

[5teve L]

my goal is still 400hp , but im just not getting there at the mo
air intake temps are still 58-64 degrees @21 psi , and the engine is still not going more than 303 bhp/289ftlb

boost goes up like a rocket from 3000 rpm t0 4400 rpm then the curve leans out but doesn't drop of till 6000 rpm, ive got issues

Cam timing or boost leak ? I'm sure you checked & double checked, IIRC you run a 3071 now on it's own don't you, or does it still run the charger as well ?
21 psi should make more than 303bhp I'm sure
You haven't got lower CR than 8:1 have you ? (sorry, lots of pages to skim back through ) it would be doing my nut in as well
Can you throw up the graphs at all ?
Did Dave have any ideas ?

[TNT ANDY]

[QUOTE=HAndy;241527]my goal is still 400hp , but im just not getting there at the mo
air intake temps are still 58-64 degrees @21 psi , and the engine is still not going more than 303 bhp/289ftlb

Like a crack addict you are - gotto have the 400 rararaaarraa lol. Sounded gr8 on the rollers,

Did it feel ok driving back home since Dave did some mapping for you?

TBH - I felt that Dave did not have anything to offer, his knowledge on your car was very limited based on the amount it has been up there. If I had been there and back again I would have given up and talked to somebody who knows that engine, knows that car....

Some people say that to him, time doesn't exist. And that thinking that you are travelling through time as a stationary object is as fundementally flawed as fitting turnips to your 5.

Some people say that he sh*ts castrol 'R' and wipes with 20 grit, then complains it just doesn't cut the mustard like 10 does.

All I know is he's called the s****

[HAndy]

in fairness to dave he doesn't get to involved in the technical side of turbo engines,and has'nt had much to to do with turbo'd renaults, he just maps them but after you left, me dave, carl , rich,and mal, discussed the results for a good hour and the exhaust manifold was picked up on (a lot) that and the cams, hence why i spent all day down there today and gained another 79ftlb and a few more bhp 1000 rpm quicker
and got another half day monday to to play with the car again to improve upon things a bit more for a very good price

over all its moving on, oil temps where really good and the air temps where good (to a point) and the recovery rate was also good,so i did get some positives from the rr day

if i lived a closer to the mad scientist,and could wait ,things would have been different, as you well know: but you know what i'm like, im always changing trying to improve something,which tends to be a (fail) most of the time

[Scoff]

Andy,

Don't be too disheartened, realistically the most you were likely to see at 1.5 bar might have been 350hp (flywheel) or maybe a tad more. It will certainly take more boost than that to hit 400hp, but I guess you know that already. Was your 303 at the wheels ? If not, what loss is he assuming ?

How are you measuing charge ? Fine wire K-type or something else ? Only the former is really any good.

Is Dave getting to MBT ? In other words, is he confident that the timing map is optimal ? He's listening for knock, yes ? I hate to ask questions like these of such an experienced calibrator, but as you say he isn't known for his forced induction tuning. If you like you can forward me your calibration file and between me and you I will give you my honest opinion.

Yes, it's interesting just how much you can alter mid range with relitively small shifts in cam timing, as it seems you proved today

Still one of the most interesting projects for me, keep up the good work

[HAndy]

Andy,

Don't be too disheartened, realistically the most you were likely to see at 1.5 bar might have been 350hp (flywheel) or maybe a tad more. It will certainly take more boost than that to hit 400hp, but I guess you know that already. Was your 303 at the wheels ? If not, what loss is he assuming ?

How are you measuing charge ? Fine wire K-type or something else ? Only the former is really any good.

Is Dave getting to MBT ? In other words, is he confident that the timing map is optimal ? He's listening for knock, yes ? I hate to ask questions like these of such an experienced calibrator, but as you say he isn't known for his forced induction tuning. If you like you can forward me your calibration file and between me and you I will give you my honest opinion.

Yes, it's interesting just how much you can alter mid range with relitively small shifts in cam timing, as it seems you proved today

Still one of the most interesting projects for me, keep up the good work

using the air temp sensor on the k6 as a reference

with regards to maps etc , i think the best thing i can do is bring the car to you scoff,
and go from there, if thats ok with you pm me some dates for early spring next year
as i've now got to get a new tubby manifold fabricated and modify the exhaust system again and refit the external wastegate also, feels like the magic roundabout

just out of interest at what kind of bhp/ftlb /flow did the 172 inlet manifold become a restriction or was it to gain hp over ftlb on your beast, and what air temps did/do you get at 2/2.5 bar of boost?


thanks for the input chief

[TNT ANDY]

http://www.randbmotorsport.co.uk/sho...?ProductID=450

as asked for mr H

[Andrew Cooke]

http://www.randbmotorsport.co.uk/sho...?ProductID=450

as asked for mr H

they don't show the sensor and that's the important part, if it's big it'll be slow to react, if it bolts to the pipe in a metal housing it'll measure the temperature of the pipe and the under bonnet temperature as much as it measures the charge temp.

[TNT ANDY]

they don't show the sensor and that's the important part, if it's big it'll be slow to react, if it bolts to the pipe in a metal housing it'll measure the temperature of the pipe and the under bonnet temperature as much as it measures the charge temp.

it's really small and quick - Just like TNT ross.

[Andrew Cooke]

it's really small and quick - Just like TNT ross.

save your money, just fit him

[Scoff]

Andy, is the iat even calibrated properly up at 60°C ? Don't panic about charge temperatures just yet until you get out and do some road testing with a thermocouple.

Regards my set up, the standard inlet always seemed a bit chokey. Looking at the torque curve at high boost showed that you could go from about 2 to 2.3 bar and not really make any more power, only mid range. With the new manifold that didn't happen as much until a bit further up in boost again, but at that point the turbo was well and truely screaming.

I don't measure charge temperature, I just run the biggest cooler I can.

EGT is something you havn't mentioned yet. It's a good indicator of how close your tune is. Do you monitor it ?

Regards spring time, just give me a shout a week before hand if you're popping up, I'm not that organised !

[HAndy]

Andy, is the iat even calibrated properly up at 60°C ? Don't panic about charge temperatures just yet until you get out and do some road testing with a thermocouple.

Regards my set up, the standard inlet always seemed a bit chokey. Looking at the torque curve at high boost showed that you could go from about 2 to 2.3 bar and not really make any more power, only mid range. With the new manifold that didn't happen as much until a bit further up in boost again, but at that point the turbo was well and truely screaming.

I don't measure charge temperature, I just run the biggest cooler I can.

EGT is something you havn't mentioned yet. It's a good indicator of how close your tune is. Do you monitor it ?

Regards spring time, just give me a shout a week before hand if you're popping up, I'm not that organised !

no i haven't monitored egt's or have the equipment to either

as regards to iat /thermacoupling ,i'm on it already, the temps quoted are rr temps , and surley there must be quite a difference in real world driving conditions anyway,
and possibly the temps caused by a bottle necking in the exhaust side would be reduced somewhat by a free flowing replacement system

[Scoff]

Oh your using one of those ACT gauges, I misread sorry. It would still be nice to see the probe as Andy says. But, bigger tip just means slower, so if you're seeing 60°C+ and they're not just spikes (inteference, etc) then there might well be an issue.

[TNT ANDY]

Oh your using one of those ACT gauges, I misread sorry. It would still be nice to see the probe as Andy says. But, bigger tip just means slower, so if you're seeing 60°C+ and they're not just spikes (inteference, etc) then there might well be an issue.

Thats the one, hold this in your hand and it reacts immediately, but takes a second to get upto temp. I don't think it's as quick as an Ian S jobby, but when on the road when I turn my charge cooler on it reacts and stabilises very quickly indeed. I have had an ebay special before now, and this it aint.

[Andrew Cooke]

blimey, it was a good day at the bake-o-foil factory when you rolled into town...

that looks like a 3mm probe? I use one that size in my collector.

[TNT ANDY]

blimey, it was a good day at the bake-o-foil factory when you rolled into town...

that looks like a 3mm probe? I use one that size in my collector.

Again.... if I had a pound!!!!!!

[TNT ANDY]

blimey, it was a good day at the bake-o-foil factory when you rolled into town...

that looks like a 3mm probe? I use one that size in my collector.

It really is a good sensor, very robust and and not too fussy as I've seen before.

[HAndy]

been a little while since last update, since the rollinig road session and question asking on the lower than expected power output ive started gathering materials and sourced a local fabricator to produce a equal length tubular exhaust manifold, which starts next week also remaking the rear wishbones and fabricating /fitting a pair of tie rods to the the beast, both items are going to be rose jointed, as im getting far to much flex coming through the rear subframe, and causing all sorts of horrific steering issues

have also started on a front splitter, which ive mocked up and fitted to my other spare front bumper,part of the front bumper is being used as a plug for a fibreglass mould(building a cover piece between the splitter and bottom edge of bumper, 50mmx4mm hanger brackets and fixing plate already fabricated and just need welding to subframe cross member( where radiator would be positioned)
along the lines of this http://www.carstylingtips.com/wp-con...nce-10-116.jpg

also in the proccess of making plugs for a pair of conards/winglets for the front bumper, as more downforce if needed ,maybe like this( but not quite as big) http://www.autostuningwallpaper.com/...-205-turbo.jpg

might also widen the rear tyres width (to run parallel with front inside tyre wall) depending on cost

so all in all got a few busy months ahead of me

[HAndy]

update, fitted new bigger core size pre rad with 25mm outlets(celica gt4 unit)which is being fed by 2x bosch water pumps (side by side)rather than in line, and installed 25mm pipe work through out the charge cooler system,which now holds 15 litres of water (5 litre header tank) also while fitting the pre rad i looked at the airflow ability of the phase 1 grill,and compared it to the aftermarket prima montecarlo grill ive had kicking around the shed for ages, anyway the phase 1 grill is at a guess 30% total area restrictive compared to the aftermarket grill even though it looks a bit nova'ish ive fitted it anyway as it should make a difference with charge temps, also built and finished the front splitter mould and produced my first spliiter came out well, did have 6" lip all round but trimmed down to 4" the rose jointed/modified rear wishbones are almost done and tie rods ready to fit also in the process of having another set of rose jointed wishbones for the front end made, which will allow me full adjustablity in track width/castor, with just the struts to play about with and camber to set up again,having camber/tracking/corner weight gauges at hand is great leaving just the cams to change at some point and a uprated actuator to fit along with some logg manifold fettling,and tapping for pressure gauge and egt gauge, i will post up the readings of the pressure values/measurement in the inlet and exhaust manifold at different boost levels, as well as egt temps at different boost levels with the standard cams and then with the piper 270 uprated cams, and then depending on results , look at having a tubular manifold fabricated

[stu21t]

Ive just done the same with my chargecooler system.
Ive got a new ah fabrications cooler, gone up to 25mm pipework and fitted a davies craig waterpump.
Lets hope we both have good results with them.

[HAndy]

Ive just done the same with my chargecooler system.
Ive got a new ah fabrications cooler, gone up to 25mm pipework and fitted a davies craig waterpump.
Lets hope we both have good results with them.

be another month before i'm up an running again hopefully
let me know how you get on stu

[HAndy]

time for a update as ive been quiet on the project thread for the last 2 months,been busy rebuilding my gt3071r, now sporting a 60mm turbine and 11 blade compressor wheel so basicly a gtx 3071r now changed to a gt style/3"v band exhaust housing in a .63 ratio for easy exhaust fitment, and better flow, also moved back to an external wastegate set up, for reliabilty at higher boost levels, and have finaly got the new laser cut exhaust flange ready along with bends for the tubular exhaust manifold,fabrication should commence end of next week with a bit of luck
have also gone for a much higher lift inlet cam and a very slightly wilder exhaust profile cam over the standard exhaust profile, have also contacted the legend that is scoff, who is kindly supplying me with an adapter plate and flywheel for a 02m gearbox conversion , and have also aquired the 02m box,driveshafts,starter,cables and gearstick/selector, so hopefully by end of march should have a 6 speed box up and working leaving just the rear quater scoops to form/build and fit and the front splitter to fit after final tracking /driveability is sorted out, then well we shall see what the score is come crunch time

[markey b]

sounds flash andy! i'll make sure i've got a 'rear facing' camera on my new toy for when yours is out, so you can watch yourself

[Os8472]

sounds flash andy! i'll make sure i've got a 'rear facing' camera on my new toy for when yours is out, so you can watch yourself