engine back in, not firing

[gttjames]

Took the engine out over xmas and fitted a piper270 cam and gave the engine a clean up. Fitted cam and timed engine up, refitted all bits and dropped lump back in. While it was out iv replaced a few electrical connections, fitted a r21 dizzy cap and some magnecor leads - other than that no change from when i pulled it.

Today i primed oil feed to turbo, fitted oil feed and have been turning engine over but all it does is turn over and wont fire. What are the possible problem area?

All iv done is replace a few connectors so i dont think its wiring

Possibility... the magnecore leads dont fit into the r21 dizzy cap, they are all to close together and wont push on well atall - so possible no contact? (I would try my old dizzy cap/leads but they are at work...) Is anyone running r21 cap and magnecore leads - how did you get round this, trim the rubber down to allow fitting?

Timing is out??

Where i have removed the dizzy drive gear to fit cam iv put it back in wrong position?

Cheers guys for any pointers

[Markey Mark (BD)]

First of all check you have spark and fuel going to carb mate?

[Fordy]

had a issue with mine yesterday new engine 285 cam etc

dissy gear was out a tooth - fixed then it ran ok on idle and wot throttle but part throttle it would missfire like anything

then had to angle grind the dissy body so it was adjustable to get the cap and rotor back into sync - fixed the missfire

might be the same issues you've got

[GTphil]

Or you could just have the leads on in the wrong firing order, worth checking

[gttjames]

cheers for replies

mark - fresh fuel - coming out the pipe to carb no problems, so getting fuel

tested for spark - getting spark from all leads

Its literally turning over, then popin from the exhuast and caries on turning over with no fireing

Im sure the leads are on the right order, did it while engine was out, turning engine over and watching rotor arm to see which was next postion - is there another way to double check?

Whats best way to check dizzy gear? cheers

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Does sound like timing issue with the dizzy, either leads wrong order or dizzy drive 180deg out

[gttjames]

Does sound like timing issue with the dizzy, either leads wrong order or dizzy drive 180deg out

So whats best to do 1st, marky b has txt me saying try swapping leads 1-4 and 2-3 - will try this next when battery has had a charge.

If not do i just take off dizzy cap, and undo dizzy drive and literally rotate it 180 and re fit?

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Yeah if you find dizzy drive is 180deg out take dizzy off and then refit the dizzy drive. Once is back in the correct place the rotor arm should point towards the rad just off centre alittle (all depending how cam is imed up though).

A quick way round it is to do what Markey B said, swap leads round on dizzy cap

[Fordy]

line up the flywheel marker with the gearbox 0... take off the rocker cover cap and see if rocker number 7 can be moved with your fingers...

if rocker number 7 moves turn the crank 1 whole turn until the flywheel marker is lined up with 0 and then check the rocker doesnt move

When number 7 rocker isnt moving it means cylinder 1 is firing then you can remove and fit the gear into the correct place, larger side towards the flywheel

[Eugein Offord]

Id whip the rocker cover off and reset the gaps on the tappits.....

[gttjames]

Swapped leads and she ran. Read about people fitting it 180 out alot on here and i still did it - will swap it round tomorrow eve and get it running properly. Cheers guys!

[gttjames]

removed dizzy cap and removed dizzy drive, turned it 180 and it wouldnt go in, the 2 locating lugs are off centre so it will only fit 1 way, do i have to remove it and turn engine over 180 by hand then refit it?

As how it is with leads swapped over it runs on idle but wont rev up atall and doesnt sound brilliant

[gttjames]

Id whip the rocker cover off and reset the gaps on the tappits.....

surely not? as when i set tappets engine was on a engine stand and dizzy wasnt even fitted

[Markey Mark (BD)]

removed dizzy cap and removed dizzy drive, turned it 180 and it wouldnt go in, the 2 locating lugs are off centre so it will only fit 1 way, do i have to remove it and turn engine over 180 by hand then refit it?

As how it is with leads swapped over it runs on idle but wont rev up atall and doesnt sound brilliant

Sounds like the dizzy drive gear is slightly out mate, had that on someones car recently

[TNT ANDY]

removed dizzy cap and removed dizzy drive, turned it 180 and it wouldnt go in, the 2 locating lugs are off centre so it will only fit 1 way, do i have to remove it and turn engine over 180 by hand then refit it?

As how it is with leads swapped over it runs on idle but wont rev up atall and doesnt sound brilliant

do it exactly as the book says (if you have it) and check to see that at TDC on the compression stroke the rotor arm in the dizzy is pointing to plug number 1. This will show if the dizzy timing gear is in right or not.

[gttjames]

right iv turned it over to tdc - like this the rotor arm points towards the engine?

[gttjames]

Sounds like the dizzy drive gear is slightly out mate, had that on someones car recently

so remove distributor - them pull out the actual drive gear, how can i tell where to put it back in? i followed the book with a guy at work when building it up last month

[TNT ANDY]

right iv turned it over to tdc - like this the rotor arm points towards the engine?

Is it on the compression stroke?

As piston 1 is on it's way up the bore, put your finger over the plug hole and if it starts pushing air out then it's on its compression stroke. When it get's to tdc, the rotor arm should be pointing wherever spark plug lead 1 sits on the dizzy cap. Can't remember where it is now though - anyone help out here?

[Kris M]

As stated before, when number 1 ( flywheel end ) is at TDC on the compression stroke the rotor arm should point towards the front of the car, ever so slightly before the point where it lines up with the contact on the dizzy

This lead goes to number 1 plug (fly). Then going clockwise on the dizzy cap, the leads are ordered 3, 4, 2

[TNT ANDY]

As stated before, when number 1 ( flywheel end ) is at TDC on the compression stroke the rotor arm should point towards the front of the car, ever so slightly before the point where it lines up with the contact on the dizzy

This lead goes to number 1 plug (fly). Then going clockwise on the dizzy cap, the leads are ordered 3, 4, 2

That's the kiddie, sounds like he's 180 deg out if it's pointing to the engine as he stated earlier. At what position is the rotor are pointing at TDC? 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock?

[gttjames]

As stated before, when number 1 ( flywheel end ) is at TDC on the compression stroke the rotor arm should point towards the front of the car, ever so slightly before the point where it lines up with the contact on the dizzy

This lead goes to number 1 plug (fly). Then going clockwise on the dizzy cap, the leads are ordered 3, 4, 2

good post, i; do this when i get home, il ensure its on compression stroke and see what number plug its point to and go from there. Il report back later

[TNT ANDY]

good post, i; do this when i get home, il ensure its on compression stroke and see what number plug its point to and go from there. Il report back later

Standing by................

[gttjames]

Its not good news guys

So ensured piston no1 was up and it was on compression stroke at TDC by the mark on flywheel and yep dizzy arm was facing engine, so with it at tdc i removed dizzy, and gear - this is where it got confusing, haynes manueal tells you to drop it in so that the larger side is facing flywheel and the slots should be in a straight line (like in pic A on picture below, sorry for drawings but you get the idea) - well mine would not go in straight, it was either way out (see picture C) or the other picture on bottom left, -this was the closest it would get - so tried it, refitted - dizzy arm was now facing the rad (not dead straight to rad) and did plug leads 1-3-4-2 - now it will not even fire up, just turns over and pops and bangs

[Markey Mark (BD)]

If your rotor arm is sitting facing the rad like last diagram then you got it about right position mate as that points towards no1 on the dizzy cap. Sounds like lead are poss wrong way again, from terminal nearest the rad in clockwise way its 1-3-4-2 and no1 is flywheel end just to make sure

[gttjames]

If your rotor arm is sitting facing the rad like last diagram then you got it about right position mate as that points towards no1 on the dizzy cap. Sounds like lead are poss wrong way again, from terminal nearest the rad in clockwise way its 1-3-4-2 and no1 is flywheel end just to make sure

So its ok that the dizzy drive gear is slightly out? is this because its a piper 270 cam??

And yep thats exactly how i did the plug leads, the one it was pointing to went to no1 (flywheel end) then worked round clockwise 3-4-2 so im sure plug leads are fine

So what now - i fitted a 270 cam - timed it up, put chain and tensioner on - turned it over by hand and the timing marks lined up so that must be ok?

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Are you using the R21 dizzy cap or testing the engine on the original cap?

When you had the flywheel lined up did you make sure the cam was lined up with the crank? If it was lined up when you reset the dizzy gear then that should all be right now but if its popping and banging sounds like the timing is out still.

[gttjames]

yer put a new r21 cap on it - shouldnt make a difference though as plenty of people using these (have got old if need be)

Well its all back in now so just lined flywheel mark up with mark on gearbox - how can i check the cam and crank are lined up aswell?

When i did it was on a engine stand so flywheel was not fitted, just aligned timing marks on pulleys, fitted chain etc, did tappets - then moved it off engine stand and fitted flywheel and all other bits

[Kris M]

Id never rely on the renault timing marks on the flywheel as being 100% correct. French machining tolerences and all that , When i built my engine i made my own mark for number 1 TDC just to be sure

[TNT ANDY]

Panic not young sire,

What you need to do is simply don't get too bogged down with this says this and this says that. Simply get it so that on the compression stroke of No 1, at the top of that stroke, the rotor arm is pointing to post number one on the dizzy cap.

By the sounds of it, this is definitely an ignition timing problem with all the pops n bangs. Had any big back fires through the cab yet LOL

[Fordy]

james i just noticed your in cambridge! Do you want me to pop over and help im over in huntingdon? shouldnt take long to sort out prob is im only free sunday night

[gttjames]

james i just noticed your in cambridge! Do you want me to pop over and help im over in huntingdon? shouldnt take long to sort out prob is im only free sunday night

serious? Yes please. Il continue to try and get it sorted myself to save you the bother, but think i could do with taking you up on the offer

[gttjames]

Panic not young sire,

What you need to do is simply don't get too bogged down with this says this and this says that. Simply get it so that on the compression stroke of No 1, at the top of that stroke, the rotor arm is pointing to post number one on the dizzy cap.

By the sounds of it, this is definitely an ignition timing problem with all the pops n bangs. Had any big back fires through the cab yet LOL

yer had some big bangs!

Ok so hows best to go about that as thats just what iv tried pretty much. so...

put a screwdriver in no1 and find the top of its compression stroke
then remove dizzy drive gear and refit it so its facing front of car
refit plug leads in correct order and give it a go???

[Sparkie]

cam 180deg out?

[TNT ANDY]

yer had some big bangs!

Ok so hows best to go about that as thats just what iv tried pretty much. so...

put a screwdriver in no1 and find the top of its compression stroke
then remove dizzy drive gear and refit it so its facing front of car
refit plug leads in correct order and give it a go???

Technically, It doesn't really matter, but what may be confusing if you do that is if anyone in the future replaces the sparkplug leads and does them as per book, it won't work LOL. But if you're ok with that then fill your boots and tag each post on the dizzy so you and A/N other knows which one is 1-3-4-2 etc.

[TNT ANDY]

cam 180deg out?

LOL - here he is again - I remember when you came to the rescue about 7 years ago when I had this problem when I re-built mine. Hope you're well Sparkie.

[gttjames]

Technically, It doesn't really matter, but what may be confusing if you do that is if anyone in the future replaces the sparkplug leads and does them as per book, it won't work LOL. But if you're ok with that then fill your boots and tag each post on the dizzy so you and A/N other knows which one is 1-3-4-2 etc.

Well iv tried doing it as book says but still isnt running. And like said in this post dont rely on renault timing marks. So im thinking try it different and see if it runs???

So if i use a crew driver i can find tdc and see if its near the flywheel mark or not, il get it to tdc on compression stroke and align dizzy arm with plug no.1 (roughly facing front of car) then do 3, 4, 2 and fire it up - it either runs or it dont.?

[gttjames]

cam 180deg out?

But if it is 180 out wont it still run, will just need timing up ona different cylinder?

But im sure its not as when fitting i used the timing marks before fitting chain so if i did this cam should not be 180 out surely?

[gttjames]

Its running

[gttjames]

re traced it all and took pictures as i went, using the screwdriver in no.1 / keeping an eye on rocer no.7 / and lining flywheel marker up i made sure it was bang on tdc as i could get it, took pictures as i went.... as you can see this is how my drive gear lined up, still a little wrong compared to haynes manual but i went for it. refitted and all running





boom and running - oil pressure on idle, this about right? and goes upto 6 when holding revs at 2k

[TNT ANDY]

Your welcome

[gttjames]

Your welcome

given the im very happy and clearly thankfull to everyone whos posted in this thread with things to try, and cheers to fordy for offering to come over if i dont sort it. Its been over 18months since i last got to drive it, so cant wait to get it fully on the road and driving it again. Hopefully get that 13 at pod aswell

[TNT ANDY]

given the im very happy and clearly thankfull to everyone whos posted in this thread with things to try, and cheers to fordy for offering to come over if i dont sort it. Its been over 18months since i last got to drive it, so cant wait to get it fully on the road and driving it again. Hopefully get that 13 at pod aswell

Glad you sorted it - nothing worse than having that kind of problem after a re-build thinking wtf could that be

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Hopefully get that 13 at pod aswell

If you don't your not trying hard enough mate!

With your spec i expect around the mid to high 13's if you not got slicks

[gttjames]

yer i know was thinking after all this work it might have to come back out again...

got close last time with standard cam if you remember mark on your slicks - did a 14.1 but clutch was slipping. And i couldnt really launch, so if i dont get a 13 only person to blame is driver lol

[Fordy]

Congrats fella on getting it running...

if you need the fueling setting up on a wideband drop me pm I'll pop over with my gear n sort it out for a couple of cups of tea n biscuits

[gttjames]

Congrats fella on getting it running...

if you need the fueling setting up on a wideband drop me pm I'll pop over with my gear n sort it out for a couple of cups of tea n biscuits

il take you up on that lol, iv bought a aem wideband kit so il fit that, but yer working on the carb il need a helping hand with. Sweet speak soon