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  1. #1
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Power - What route to go now??

    New poster! (less than 10 posts)

    Hi guys, looking to order up the parts for my new engine build, but wanted to rack the brains of the guru's before I do.

    Here's my current set up:

    KTR - Level 3 gas flowed head.
    Uprated head gasket set and bolts.
    KTR uprated cam.
    Group N Clutch.
    Lightened Flywheel.
    KTR alloy intercooler, group A carb, group A dump valve, induction kit, in-car boost kit.
    Hi output starter motor.
    Samco hoses
    Garrett T2 Turbo
    Scorpion Exhaust

    The car was running 20psi all the time and never gave me any issues. The main reason for the rebuild is to refresh the bottom-end.... and here's my question........

    Would it be ok to fit forged pistons, but not the forged con-rods and steel liners to run 25+ psi?? I know this sounds a bit 'bodge', but there's a massive price difference and TBH, I only want to run a bit more power than what it was before.

    Any help would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    from what ive read many times over

    standard piston and liners
    standard carb (not a group A)
    decent intecooler
    T25 or T28 turbo
    an Lm-1 afr gauge of some sort
    and someone who can help you drill your carb jets to suit 20psi.

    should make all the difference if your already running a decent Cam.

    my word isnt gospel just what ive read a few times

  3. #3
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    New poster! (less than 10 posts)

    I think I remember reading that the standard pistons and rings won't cope with going over 20psi.

  4. #4
    Non-member TrixNFlix's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    from what ive read many times over

    standard piston and liners
    standard carb (not a group A)
    decent intecooler
    T25 or T28 turbo
    an Lm-1 afr gauge of some sort
    and someone who can help you drill your carb jets to suit 20psi.

    should make all the difference if your already running a decent Cam.

    my word isnt gospel just what ive read a few times

  5. #5
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Firstly a T2 is a tiny turbo IMO and would be dead at 25psi... thats up to you and what you want the car for.. Also stock cast pistons are fine to high levels of boost (even 500Wheel!!!!hp+ in other cars) depending on tapper and piston to wall clearances (machine your own maybe)... I havnt messured stock GT pistons over a forge so i cant say there..

  6. #6
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post
    New poster! (less than 10 posts)

    I think I remember reading that the standard pistons and rings won't cope with going over 20psi.

    not sure, but i do believe some of the quicker cars on the 1/4mile may have run on standard pistons/liners. up to 23psi i think.

    id be more worried about fueling for 25 psi in 4th and 5th than your pistons at present.


  7. #7
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing View Post
    Firstly a T2 is a tiny turbo IMO and would be dead at 25psi... thats up to you and what you want the car for.. Also stock cast pistons are fine to high levels of boost (even 500Wheel!!!!hp+ in other cars) depending on tapper and piston to wall clearances (machine your own maybe)... I havnt messured stock GT pistons over a forge so i cant say there..
    Yeah, there's other ancillaries I'd replace to go over 20 psi... I was just referring to the internals.

    That's f'in awesome news regarding the standard pistons! With the money I could save, I wonder if a machine shop could sort the piston to wall clearances.....

    I know the forge pistons lower the compression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maka View Post
    not sure, but i do believe some of the quicker cars on the 1/4mile may have run on standard pistons/liners. up to 23psi i think.

    id be more worried about fueling for 25 psi in 4th and 5th than your pistons at present.

    Yeah, fueling and cooling (boost) are my two main concerns. Thinking about trading in my uprated cam for K-tecs 285 cam and uprated valve springs.

    Does anyone know if the standard fuel pump is up to the job of big boost??

  8. #8
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    I think you should use your old pistons with new liners and rings, if your planning a rebuild its what i do. Maybe machine the crown off only depending on what your head hight messures at (if its been skimmed alot before) and what your plan is for the engine... Piper 285 and T28 seems a proven winner for good power. Spend your cash on set ups and good charge cooling.. The Ph1 GT fuel pump will work ok, check to see what you have fitted allready??? black rubber casing over pump then bin it... it wont be uprated

  9. #9
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Cool.... sounds like a good plan.

    When replacing the liners, would you recommend going for the steel liners that K-tec supply or just go for standard replacements?

    K-tec's T28's are insanely expensive. Do you know of any other reputable tubbys that people use?

  10. #10
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Poss Adam L on here for a turbo is best bet i get alot of my parts from US these days or ATP so cant say... Standard liners will do fine... All in set up and balance of parts...

  11. #11
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Sh!t.... and there was me grumbling that I had to pay £25 to join this club, but in hindsight it has saved me over a grand already! Cheers!

    Will possibly get in touch with Adam regarding the turbo. Think it could be wise to get the crank lightened/balanced/knife edged while it's all out.

  12. #12
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Lol Nope no real point in that either... GTs are cheap as chips to tune and rebuild and the ££££ - BHP its cheap.... If your after a rebuild just do a stock rebuild with new rings and shells, gaskets etc full check over... Poss cam swap + springs and turbo then spend time and cash on getting it set up.. THIS IS the main reason why so many fail. Peeps dont have them set up correctly etc..

  13. #13
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Sweet! I'm going to sleep tonight with a big grin on my face.

    Totally agree about peeps not getting them setup right. I always took mine to K-tec to get it done and it never gave me any issues at all, despite people constantly telling me it would go pop "because it a GTT".

  14. #14
    Non-member Markey Mark (BD)'s Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post
    Sweet! I'm going to sleep tonight with a big grin on my face.

    Totally agree about peeps not getting them setup right. I always took mine to K-tec to get it done and it never gave me any issues at all, despite people constantly telling me it would go pop "because it a GTT".
    Honestly mate tune the carb yourself or have some help from here, the carbs from 'tuners' have been known to never fuel correctly, you'll gain abit more just from that itself.

  15. #15
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    I may get the whole thing tuned on a RR and have a look it then. Will definitely consult you guys before hand though.

  16. #16
    Non-member Penfold aka The Dealer's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Make sure you go to a decent RR, there maybe some members on here who can recommend a place to go...

    The club is full of people who have been tuning there cars for years and do a better job than the tuners...

  17. #17
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Sweet. Once it's up and running I'll maybe looking into meeting up or something with some of the guru's on here to get it dialed in. Either that or just take some advice while trying to do it myself.

  18. #18
    Non-member rs250nut's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Ah sweet as another member on the south coast, if you need a hand with anything give us a shout.

  19. #19
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Awesome, mate. Cheers.

    May take you up that.

  20. #20
    Non-member Tiny Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    I'll stand by and drink the beer.

  21. #21
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    I like your style.

  22. #22
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    what i found form experience is big tuner names drop big main jets in and alter the air corrector.

    bout as far as they go. therefore over fueling during normal driving and under fueling on full boost.

    ditch the group A carb and read this article steve did: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=460


    works a treat

  23. #23
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    mine has dished std pistons, std liners and std rods, runs up to 27psi manifold... got a MSM high comp engine but std parts

  24. #24
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maka View Post
    what i found form experience is big tuner names drop big main jets in and alter the air corrector.

    bout as far as they go. therefore over fueling during normal driving and under fueling on full boost.

    ditch the group A carb and read this article steve did: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=460


    works a treat
    Just subscribed to that thread for future reference. My car definitely felt as if it was over fueling during normal driving.

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    mine has dished std pistons, std liners and std rods, runs up to 27psi manifold...
    Nice.... what turbo are you running? Any idea how many horses you're putting out?



    got a MSM high comp engine but std parts
    what does that involve?

    Cheers

  25. #25
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    o.e piston ringlands won't like prolonged use over 1.5bar (*), so if you're planning on running more than that, go forged (J.E is my recommendation).

    o.e liners will take a fair bit more boost than that, but again there are forged (and graphite) liners available if needs be. In my experience though, they're not needed.

    The bottom-end is pretty much bullet-proof, so the o.e rods will be fine for whatever you chuck at them, and likewise for the crank & its bearings/shells as well.

    * And if that is the case, you'll need to look at improving fuel supply (float chamber) too.

  26. #26
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post

    Nice.... what turbo are you running? Any idea how many horses you're putting out?
    runs a VNT, dyno figures are 217bhp 256.4lb/ft torque but dyno figures are just that, and i'm sure need to be taken with pinch of salt. did a 105terminal at pod on road tyres so is probably around that figure somewhere.

    as for the high comp engine, i think markeymark knows a bit about them, but last i heard there is easier ways of tuning the c1j

  27. #27
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    o.e piston ringlands won't like prolonged use over 1.5bar (*), so if you're planning on running more than that, go forged (J.E is my recommendation).

    o.e liners will take a fair bit more boost than that, but again there are forged (and graphite) liners available if needs be. In my experience though, they're not needed.

    The bottom-end is pretty much bullet-proof, so the o.e rods will be fine for whatever you chuck at them, and likewise for the crank & its bearings/shells as well.

    * And if that is the case, you'll need to look at improving fuel supply (float chamber) too.
    Ideally, I'd like to go 30psi.... would you recommend maybe just go for the forge pistons then? I was under the impression that the standard ones would be fine if I had the crowns machined down.

  28. #28
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Compression ratio wise, it'll help at 30psi, but the ringlands won't be upto the job. Give it a trackday or several runs at the Pod, and they'll crack quicker than humpty dumpty falling off a wall.

    30psi will take some trick fuelling/carb jetting.

    Aim for a power figure rather than a max boost figure...

  29. #29
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    runs a VNT, dyno figures are 217bhp 256.4lb/ft torque but dyno figures are just that, and i'm sure need to be taken with pinch of salt. did a 105terminal at pod on road tyres so is probably around that figure somewhere.

    as for the high comp engine, i think markeymark knows a bit about them, but last i heard there is easier ways of tuning the c1j
    Yeah, dyno's can be a bit hit and miss, but even so, that's quite a good torque reading.

  30. #30
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    Compression ratio wise, it'll help at 30psi, but the ringlands won't be upto the job. Give it a trackday or several runs at the Pod, and they'll crack quicker than humpty dumpty falling off a wall.
    Noted.

    Forgies will have to be ordered in that case.

    30psi will take some trick fuelling/carb jetting.

    Aim for a power figure rather than a max boost figure...
    It's a bit of a bugger as I never got a power reading as the car is now @ 20psi. All I know is that not a lot of cars could keep up with it off the lights. When I say I'd like 30 psi, I'm just estimating a 30% power increase.
    Last edited by Big Supes; 23-05-2009 at 15:13.

  31. #31
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    And old c1j rule of thumb, in most cases anyway - For every psi of boost you increase, you'll gain ~5hp.

  32. #32
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post
    Noted.

    Forgies will have to be ordered in that case.



    It's a bit of a bugger as I never got a power reading as the car is now @ 20psi. All I know is that not a lot of cars could keep up with it off the lights. When I say I'd like 30 psi, I'm just estimating a 30% power increase.

    will the geabox take a prolonged use of 30psi? even if you crack the fueling for the carb!!

  33. #33
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    And old c1j rule of thumb, in most cases anyway - For every psi of boost you increase, you'll gain ~5hp.
    Ahh, quite a handy one to know (as a gauge).

    Quote Originally Posted by Maka View Post
    will the geabox take a prolonged use of 30psi? even if you crack the fueling for the carb!!
    Not sure, tbh.

    Someone once told me that the gearbox off the diesal 1.7 (I think) R5 is a good option. Apparently it gives a higher top end and is more durable...

  34. #34
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post
    Ahh, quite a handy one to know (as a gauge).



    Not sure, tbh.

    Someone once told me that the gearbox off the diesal 1.7 (I think) R5 is a good option. Apparently it gives a higher top end and is more durable...

    over 80mph my doors try to open themselves and i swear i can hear the front wings creaking!

    not sure personally with my car id want to be aiming for a high topend

  35. #35
    Committee, Moderator Matt Cole's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maka View Post
    over 80mph my doors try to open themselves and i swear i can hear the front wings creaking!

    not sure personally with my car id want to be aiming for a high topend
    I think there is something wrong with your car mate if it does all of that at 80!! 140mph and i would agree with you.

  36. #36
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maka View Post
    over 80mph my doors try to open themselves and i swear i can hear the front wings creaking!

    not sure personally with my car id want to be aiming for a high topend
    Yeah, I agree with Matt that something is up with your car.

    It's not so much that I want to go faster.... having a high gear ratio would bring the revs down while motorway cruising.

  37. #37
    South West Regional Rep jesus in the seat of a 5's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Supes View Post
    Yeah, I agree with Matt that something is up with your car.

    It's not so much that I want to go faster.... having a high gear ratio would bring the revs down while motorway cruising.
    ..sounds like a lie..., standard boost rules..., you can keep your monthly rebuilds and eternal quests for reliability......, seriously though, 25-30psi..id reccomend you give these guys a call ... http://www.theaa.com/search-index.js...oogleBrand...:)

  38. #38
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by MATT C Ringworm Tuning View Post
    I think there is something wrong with your car mate if it does all of that at 80!! 140mph and i would agree with you.

    you can definatly see day light through the top of the door when accellerating at full pelt over 80mph
    and no not through the window.

    my cars beautiful, nothing wrong with that!

  39. #39
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    also worth noting, 20psi on a t2 is no comparison to 20psi on a t28.

    a bigger turbo (t28 or so) at the same boost as your running now will yield
    far more power, so again, dont aim for a max boost figure, aim for a target hp.

    i`d suggest going out in a gtt with a t28 fitted before you spend any money
    and decide if you like the power/delivery.

    as for forged vs cast pistons, maybe just luck, but i had a set of wossner forged pistons in my gtt, and they took far less abuse to detroy than old stock cast jobbies,
    in fact they lasted a full week, and was £500

  40. #40
    Non-member Brigsy's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Maka View Post
    you can definatly see day light through the top of the door when accellerating at full pelt over 80mph
    and no not through the window.

    my cars beautiful, nothing wrong with that!
    If you have flappy doors get the doorpins done

  41. #41
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by jesus in the seat of a 5 View Post
    ..sounds like a lie..., standard boost rules..., you can keep your monthly rebuilds and eternal quests for reliability......, seriously though, 25-30psi..id reccomend you give these guys a call ... http://www.theaa.com/search-index.js...oogleBrand...:)
    PMSL

    Jesus, you speak wise words, but taking the sensible option has never been a strong point of mine. If it was, I'd keep my Nissan Micra and sell the 5.

    My GTT has run 20 psi for around 2 and half years with no serious problems. I think the only thing that kept letting go was clutch cables..... still need to do the soft pedal mod.

    There's no doubt that I won't go for big power if it means it could break any second.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing View Post
    also worth noting, 20psi on a t2 is no comparison to 20psi on a t28.

    a bigger turbo (t28 or so) at the same boost as your running now will yield
    far more power, so again, dont aim for a max boost figure, aim for a target hp.

    i`d suggest going out in a gtt with a t28 fitted before you spend any money
    and decide if you like the power/delivery.
    Good point.

    Taking on board your point, I think I'll still be going T28; even though the GTT is great fun @ 20 psi with a T2, I'd still like more power. If it turns out that 20 psi delivered from a T28 will do the job, it'll be a bonus as the engine will be capable of more (won't be pushed to the limit).

    as for forged vs cast pistons, maybe just luck, but i had a set of wossner forged pistons in my gtt, and they took far less abuse to detroy than old stock cast jobbies,
    in fact they lasted a full week, and was £500
    Sh!t!! Sounds like bad luck to me.

  42. #42
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigsy View Post
    If you have flappy doors get the doorpins done
    its on the list of things to do.

    thanks fella

  43. #43
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Just bought a ported and polished inlet manifold.... they seller claims it gives an extra 15bhp, but I can't really see it....

  44. #44
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Port matching the manifolds is a worthwhile mod, but polishing, boring out, etc is a waste of time - The roughness inside the inlet manifold is good for fuel/air atomisation, and no need to enlarge the runners/headers as the carb venturi will still be the pre-engine restricition.

    Likewise for the exhaust manifold, in that you want to retain the same diameter/bore all the way through to maintain gas speed/heat/pressure (cue Boyle's Law) to aid turbo spool.

    As for the 15hp gain...

  45. #45
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Oh well..... it's shiney which is always a plus.

    I've always wanted to get the KTR exhaust mani, but it's insanely expensive!

  46. #46
    Non-member Maka's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    i think theres been quite a bit of discussion on the tubular manifold option.
    i believe its not really of huge benefit plus you loose the tractor sound!

  47. #47
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    All joking aside, losing the tractor sound would actually stop me from getting it.

  48. #48
    Non-member 5alldaway's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    theres nothing like the good old tractor, the gtt is always so distinctive, theres a local 5 that comes past my house sometimes and i always know its him when im tucked up in bed

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhzeBeqlNJc

  49. #49
    Non-member Big Supes's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    You can't beat the signature sound of a 5.

  50. #50
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Power - What route to go now??

    Quote Originally Posted by 5alldaway View Post

    ooh, tuning on the workshop dyno

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