What hasn't been mentioned is increasing the CC'S. I think Robbie has just done this. Made a big difference to spool.
What hasn't been mentioned is increasing the CC'S. I think Robbie has just done this. Made a big difference to spool.
With a taller crank and shorter rods?
I am considering going to 77mm bore to increase the CC a little, should take it to 1434.2cc, not a massive leap but should make some difference.
Cracked liners were so common you'd need to ensure the liners you use are strong enough to survive being even thinner at the sides.
I don't' know, or recall, how Renault did it with the 1.7 in the 5 GTX and Monaco.
Westwood Liners make ductile liners up to 80mm, if you gave them a call I imagine they could help. Around £450 per set.
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You can get the long stroke crank kits for around 1K. They bring it to 1600cc same as the maxi turbo.
I was going to go down this route, but just had my crank reground and bought new rods, so didn't bother. But it would certainly make it nice and torquey!
With the 80mm liners and long stroke, that would make it about 1.7 litres or so.
Would give the off boost area more drive-ability.
Would the longer stroke limit the revs in a significant way?
So what about pistons with the 80mm liners? Where could they be sourced? Also the crank?
So been a week or so since the last update, couple of bits of progress but nothing major to report as of yet, order a few bits from the Club Shop (thanks Dale!), and a few bits from CGB and GTTS's. Nothing exciting really, just bits and bobs that I'll need during the build.
I also cleaned up some of the brackets and ancillaries I got on the engine when I bought it, these were soaked in Frosts Rust Remover then media blasted. They'll be getting Zinc plated soon!
I had also purchased a used Inlet manifold of eBay (I'm an eBay whore always on the lookout for a bargain). This is planned to be ported and tidied up in due course but whilst I'm waiting it has been hot pressure cleaned, dipped in rust remover to clear the water jacket out and then media blasted, will be painted once all the porting work is complete.
Before:
After:
Next I was trying to source a Renault 21 Turbo lobster, which Turbo Ted (Rob) said he had and was willing to sell to me. The plan is to replace the normal carb lobster with this. The reason I wanted a R21 Turbo elbow is that I will be adding a Water-Meth injector and this needs to be before the carb. Looking at various places to locate or position the injector I wasn't happy with where I had space available. I stumbled across a picture of one these lobsters mounted to a fuel injected C1J inlet manifold and saw it had a spare port inline with the direction of flow. This will work perfectly as the mist will mix perfectly with the charge air, then be added to the fuel mixture as it passes through the carb.
If (IF!) I've schemed this up in my head correctly I aim to, utilise the spare port on front of the lobster for the injector, run the cup mod so will no longer need the two ports on the side of the original lobster, utilise the threaded hole at the rear of the unit for an inlet temp sensor and machine a fitting for the other take off the lobster at the rear.
I am under no illusion that this will be a two-minute-job, the intercooler pipework will need a reducer to allow it to meet up with the inlet of the lobster (however I'll be fitting a front mount so will be sorting this anyway) and the injector and feed off the back will require a boss's making up. Not only that but the lobster will require an adaptor plate to allow it to fit the carb. This will serve a dual purpose, it will be funnel shaped inside to take into account the difference in diameter between the lobster and carb, and also allow me to rotate the lobster to line up with the intercooler pipework better. I'm planning that this will bolt to the carb, then bolt the lobster to the adaptor. I'll be buying a carb soon to start the mock up process and sketch something up, then once thats done one of the lads in the DO will CAD it up and I'll get it machined when things quieten down at work.
Last edited by Chesney84; 16-03-2018 at 00:26.
Last post for this evening now. Since the block came back I've been busy tidying it up, removing the flash from the casting and smoothing it out without removing too much material. The idea being that a rounded smoother profile is stronger and more reliable than sharper edges where cracks can begin to propagate. Not only this but it will aid water and oil flow and hopefully assist with oil drain back down to the sump. Heres some before and after shots:
And more...
And yet more...
And finally...
I am waiting for a cheap head gasket to arrive which I will be using as a template to open up the two water journals as these are very poorly finished and undoubtedly hindering the flow of coolant as they clearly don't line up with the head as there are witness marks from where the head gasket had been sitting.
The last component I have purchased is a standard T2 Turbo, this unit is fairly ropey with some play and a cracked exhaust housing but will only be used as a donor so not overly concerned and I didn't give much for it either. The current plan is a bespoke build, one of Steve's engine builder friends has a great deal of experience with Turbo's and used to in the day have a few 5's of his own in various states of tune. Exact specification is yet to be finalised but planning on doing the usual:
Larger billet turbine wheel (lightly clipped)
360 degree bearing
Larger billet compressor wheel
Modified compressor backplate and machined cover
I know having done some research and from others experience and comments that there is a relatively low ceiling in maximum achievable power (read boost) that this unit will produce, even with the modifications/ improvements I will be making. However, we are confident that with the work we are doing that this will be suitable for my requirements. Yes it would be cheaper to buy a larger turbo that would achieve the same and potentially more, however I want to stick with the T2 unit for the quick spool up and also for originaility.
I know at the minute this build thread looks like it is going nowhere fast, but I'm just slowly building a stock pile of parts, and organising things a planning it out. I'd love to have a massive pot of cash to just go out and buy everything and pay for all the services all at once. But this is a project and I'm in no rush to complete it, not only that but the more I read the more my plans evolve and change. I was planning to keep this as true to the original layout and design as I could, but already the direction has changed - going to be doing away with the AEI unit and go for a far more flexible and tuneable electronic ignition system (No-Diz is currently the favourite) to help realise the most out of the modifications I am making.
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I made that mistake, the zinc corroded almost immediately. The chrome was still chrome. Unless you know of / can get much better zinc plating?Originally Posted by Chesney84
Each to their own, I know
I never did get that oil return done:
Used a burnishing brush from Frost's:
Experience of many 5GTT owners says different. It was better to mount the injector far away from the carb top or it didn't mix. Outlet of intercooler was favourite. That where I had mine, by then that the norm.
And, IIRC, a 0.4mm was the size, or was too big. Seem to have forgotten. But people got less power if they it wrong. Seem to recall that it needs vapour going in, not droplets.
Scoff used it, Aquamist, same as me, and he has his own rolling road and found that there was no benefit to a correctly set up engine. He's up to 800bhp from a 1.8 litre Renault engine, or something, so I presume he knows what he talking about.
So do you think that even with this elbow this is still too close?
Looks a great clean 5 and nice project good work
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ThanksLooks a great clean 5 and nice project good work
Don't think I have. There's some nice stuff around for the 5GTT these days.
Do you think it will help? Looks a little thin but probably than nothing. Maybe it's very good! No idea really!
At the bottom of the Punto 1.4 litre engine, I seem to recall that it was thick aluminium and may even have been including the main bearing caps. Memory of it is vague though.
Found this pic of something similar. Apparently it's a Toyota HZ 4.2 litre engine from 1990.
Found this for Nissan: Engine cradles: http://www.platinumracingproducts.com/engine-cradles/
That's what people were saying at the time. The obvious first place to put the injector was the alu carb top, where the two spare take-offs were. Seems to recall people talking about misfiring. And less power on the rollers when the water was turned on. They found it needed less water and to be further away to atomise better.
With mine we drilled a hole in the intercooler side, that seemed to work OK until at Pod one day, with the engine running, I purged the plain water in the pipe so as to get the methanol aqueous solution all the way up to the nozzle. Instead of going with the passing air at idle, it pooled in top of the intercooler and the car wouldn't then run third gear up the strip, just sputtered all the way a few times until I gave up. There was oil and water all over the engine via the dump valve. No-one guessed what was wrong. It cleared on the M1 on the way home then ran well again.
Lesson; it really doesn't take much water to mess things up.
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A nice sly conversion. Who would know it's not still a 1.4. But so much faster from the traffic lights than all our pals.
Well not all our pals now as most of us are the only person we know who owns one!
I have seen this site before, Ruanova offer some good looking products, I would be keen to see some first handFound this for £150 Ian, full kit, sure you've probably seen it before though:
Water injection, completely overkill for what you are trying to achieve especially with the tiny turbo you are going to use. Just spend your money on a decent efficient Intercooler, preferably front mount not side mount.
Yeah, the output temp from my standard position Pace intercooler was about 89°C. I had to get the temp below 40°C before starting an overtake or it would pink a bit.
IIRC, the Forge universal front mount intercooler output temp, on a 5GTT lapping castle combe, using one of my dual thermocouple gauges, was about 40°C, and the input from the turbo was 125°C. So even though that forge was poorly made, was dropping 85°C.
Yet I seem to recall that some people had seen a turbo output temp of 250°C which was the limit of my probes designs PTFE sheath.
I've got long stroke crank and 80mm Pistons in my c1j extra van the engine was original built by Glenn at dyno tec back in the good old days, but since fitting engine in the van I'm having nothing but trouble with the headgasket there was a copper headgasket on engine first which worked for a while and it was badly made too. As there's no headgasket available to buy for 80mm I had one made from stainless steel which consist of 4 thin gaskets sandwiched together basically it's a copy of the MLS gasket now this has been working great until the other day it's let go again, not had time to see what's gone this time but I reckon because of the 80mm bore the liners are only 4mm thickness so there's only that much surface area for the gasket to seal
So my advice would be leave Pistons to standard at 76mm
Regards rob
I'll have a chat with the plating company and see what they say/ suggest. I only plan to use the car for limited mileage in the summer months mainly and it is kept under a cover in the garage when not in use, so hopefully a freshly plated bracket will not rust excessively in these circumstances. If they do the chassis is more of a concern!I made that mistake, the zinc corroded almost immediately. The chrome was still chrome. Unless you know of / can get much better zinc plating?
Each to their own, I know
I never did get that oil return done:
Used a burnishing brush from Frost's:
Nice looking block and engine - although thats a little too much chrome for me, thats way too much autosol for me!
Is there a head gasket for the kitFound this last night:
No price so assume it's not going to be cheap!
I know its over the top but fancy putting it on and as long as it is used and set-up correctly it can only help instead of hinder. Will be definitely be going down the FMIC route.
Now these, seems almost a shame not to be able to see them once its all assembled!
Its not part of the kit they sell, they are an agent of Cometic though and theres a link on their site find the size of your choice...
I think I'll only push it to 77mm tops, you can get good quality MLS head gaskets for 77mm bore (even seen some with a steel fire ring), that combined with switching to studs and the additional ring dowel between the block and head should ensure a good clamp and positive location between the two!
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Has the block and pistons been skimmed flat? If they are the normal wide variation in height, would that not the cause with a hard gasket not really seating on the whole lot, just here and there?
I'm wondering if wire ringing the liners would help with the 80mm bores?
May have had a bit of a result today. Sorting out the store room upstairs at work I came across 4 split rim barrels. I'd seen them a couple of times before but never gave them a second thought, but today I had to move them so decided to have a quick gander. The first thing that struck me about them was the weight, I know they are missing the centre's but I could not believe how light they were. It turns out upon looking at the stickers they are actually quite a rare set of SSR Speedstar MK2R's (old school lightweight Japanese split rims). I spoke to my colleague Matt, the owner of them, and he said he no longer had any use for them as he had sold the car some time ago. He said he has the centre's at home and will bring them. Long story short, they are mine if I want them. They do require some TLC but heres what they look like (for those unfamiliar with them):
I know these won't be to everyones taste, and even I had my doubts at first, until I saw these:
Been playing around on photoshop with red on black (red centres with black bolts, nuts and barrels) and got to say they look pretty cool and proper old school 90's
My question is they are 6x14 inch, with a PCD of 4x100 and an offset of 38, does anyone see any reason why these wouldn't fit?
This is what I have in mind:
Or potentially black centre with the barrel and bolts painted in red, both variations can be with a highly polished chrome edged rim.
Is the centre hole the correct size?
Shame you can't fit them inside out, with all that chrome showing
The problem might be lack of traction with only a 6 inch wheel.
Might be OK with some very grippy tires. I had some Yoko A032r for a while on the original 5J5 rims and they didn't wheel spin at all. Well only at the start line at the pod where I smoked them for a while in 2nd gear until they dragged the car with handbrake on, then I know they were ready
Discontinued now: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Yo...dvan-A032R.htm
Going to have a measure up for that today, if not I’ll turn up a ally spigot ring at work and press it in. I was thinking of fitting some Nankang NS2R tyres as they seem to have mega reviews everywhere I’ve read - apart from wet grip (which I won’t be using this car in the wet let alone driving it hard), road noise and economy. Dry grip is supposed to be mega though! Can’t quite justify the AS1’s for a car that only gets used for a handful of days a year in fair weather.
I can’t make any guarantees but I’m going to try and get them rebuilt and fitted for the Pod show! While I’m on that note, I was hoping to lower it on a set of coil overs (and lower the torsion bars). Anyone got any advice on potential pitfalls with regard to low rtide heights. Is there any fear of popping out driveshafts on these 5’s if I go too low? Is there enough scope for camber adjustment?
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I found lowered cars to have too little suspension travel to absorb larger bumps and speed. The rear wheels hit the bump stops and punt the car up in the air and give the driver and passenger a moments real pain in the back.
If you're happy to drive 20 to 40 mph slower on lanes, then 'slammed' does keep the car more upright on roundabouts, if they're not too bumpy.
I added some tarmac rally version (probably no longer available) Bilstein rear shocks, which were a lot firmer, but would yield over larger bumps, the opposite behaviour to the plethora of not very good shock absorbers that people use.
I kept my rear ride height, in fact the Bilsteins raised it a few mm as they expand with so much force, my body weight couldn't push the rod in, lowering it a bit would been better as there was too little downward wheel movement left, so I'd would only have been lower it back to standard or just a bit less. To begin with anyway. If lowering these cars was easier I'd have tried different ride heights to find out how that affected the chassis balance.
At the front, I fitted 250 lb / inch springs, that largely sorted the front roll and maintained the contact patch much better. Had those on Koni Yellows.
Basically I was too poor to afford very good quality height adjustable front suspension, but that would have been better that having to buy different pairs of normal, but harder, spring to adjust the height.
And I could have then adjusted the bump and rebound settings appropriately, instead of the Konis not being quite right.
Some 'coil over' kits does seem have the top bearing assembly. I not sure what people do to correct that.
I've not heard of drive shafts coming out.
But you make a mess of the suspension geometry and lose contact patch on the straights and the corners. Bespoke drop links are the way to restore the wishbone angle to something that works.
The harder the springs, the less the car rolls, so the less the geometry changes.
There are some fancy sliding top mounts that allow some camber changes. Other than that people would fettle the shock absorber bottom bolt hole into a slot so it can tilt a bit.
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Mega, thanks for the advice Ian.
So work was quiet today so spent some time on the wheels, when I say wheels I mean the bolts. I was just going to toss these away and fit new, until I started doing some research. Apparently a lot of early 90's JDM split rim used M6 bolts, where a lot of other brands were using M7 or M8. Nowadays M7 and M8 are the norm, but finding M6 bolts for split rims is nigh on impossible. Obviously you can find stainless bolts of all lengths and sizes, but trying to find M6 in 10.9 grade at the exact length I needed and be polished stainless was proving hard. So they went into the ultrasonic cleaner, then out came the trusty Frosts rust remover solution (to remove the crud off the bolts where the nuts had sat). Then painstakingly I sat with a wire brush and brought each one to life. I also ran a nut up and down the bolt to clean the threads. Luckily for me theres only 80 of them!!!
Really happy with how they have come out though, the heads look as good as new, haven't made my mind up yet if I'm going to leave them in stainless finish or make them black as I have ordered some black oxide solution to finish them with. I also ordered some stainless serrated flange nuts as the original nuts were shagged.
So here are the rim centres, I'm planning on doing these red, will try and match the red from the vinyl sticker on the rear quarters to try and tie them in. I'm going to see if I can get the raised profiles on the centres machined and then detailed in black paint to pull them out.
I really wasn't sure on them at first but they've really grown on me. In all honesty they are going to cost me a small fortune when I add up all the parts needed and painting, polishing, rebuilding etc. but I have a vision in my head of how I they will look once I'm done, and ultimately there won't be another 5 with these rims on like this (which may be a good or bad thing)
The centres are really light - apparently they are spun cast and you can clearly see have hollow spokes!
Then here's the rims, they are in a pretty sorry state, I did consider keeping them bare ally and polishing them, but they are quite pitted and have some stone rash and gouges, so these will be getting painted black. These are, so I'm led to believe two pieces, then welded together during manufacture. The very outer lip of the rim I'm planning on having polished to a chrome finish.
I'm sure these rims will divide opinion when they are complete/ fitted, but I think that tucked up inside the arches, with the car heavily lowered should turn a few heads!
Ultimately a cross between this...
...and this:
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So I offered up the wheels tonight, the fronts went straight on but the rears will require a spacer as they don't quite clear the callipers unfortunately.
Spigot rings have been ordered as these were available off the eBay shelf in the size combination required to fit both the wheel and hub.
Having seen the wheel centre fitted on the car I have now had a "wobble" on colour choice/ combination, thinking that perhaps I should stick with black but have a red outer rim with polished lip
As soon as I decide I'll get them dropped off for refurb and paint. Was toying back and forth with tyre choice, thinking perhaps Nankangs, but I've decided to go with a 195/45 R14 Toyo T1R. Having used these tyres before I've always thought they were pretty good really - certainly for the price! Also they are one of the only 14inch tyres I've seen that offers such a low profile. Hopefully should look quite nice on the new rims and keep the ride height nice and low, although I know removing some of the sidewall height takes away some of the compliance and damping and will give a much harsher ride.
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Last edited by Chesney84; 26-03-2018 at 22:28.
I actually like them! Black definitely.
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I think I've decided on colour choice now. It was a bit quiet at work today so I grabbed a some spray paint and had a bit of a play about. These are just rattle-can'd so the finish isn't the best but give me a proper idea of what the finished wheels will look like. So here's the red on black:
Having now done this I'm now convinced that black on red in the way forward. The red band and chrome lip will help the edge of the rim contrast to to the tyre making the wheels look bigger than the alternative combination which I feel would blend in at a glance making the rim look smaller. Not only that but I couldn't help but feel the all red wheel looked a bit "cheap and tacky"
When finished the centre will sit slightly deeper into the rim as at the minute the powder coating is way too thick to allow them to be fully assembled - meaning you will be able to see more of the red.
Been a while since I've posted on here and updated progress on the build - unfortunately I've got a few personal problems at the minute meaning my focus (and funds) have been diverted temporarily. Anyway, enough licking of my wounds, here's what I have been up to over the past couple of months.
So I've finished the work on the block, I bought a cheap generic C1J head gasket purely as a template for the waterways in the top of the block. With this now done I'm happy that the block is ready to build. All the burr's and casting flash has been removed and smoothed off, meaning oil return to the sump and water flow through the block should be as good as it can:
Before shots of the water-ways:
And after:
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Also bought a soft pedal conversion arm from eBay, think I'll be going with the Green Box Valeo Clutch when I get that far along (is this the same one that is sold on the CGB website do you know?)
Also stripped and painted the engine mount and stabiliser bar with some black VHT wrinkle paint:
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