First time GT Turbo owner

[Chesney84]

Hi guys, been a member on here for a few months and thought I'd open a thread on here to share my experiences and more likely than not to pick your collective brains when I come across something I'm unsure of!

Purchased the car in October after wanting one for quite a while but for some reason or another always seemed to go out and buy something else. Better late than never I suppose and probably just in time as prices seem to be going North for these cars at the minute. Anyway, the car is standard inside and out and fairly tidy. the engine bay has some blue Samco hoses but apart from a SS exhaust is standard. My plan is to keep the interior and exterior completely factory, just lowered and tidied up, but then build a second engine and gearbox that I will switch out some time in the future and keep the original engine and turbo in the garage. Anyway heres a pic of the 5!

[Chesney84]

[Chesney84]

Small photo of it in this months issue of Modern classics when they did a feature on Bicester Heritage Sunday Scramble:

[Chesney84]

Engine bay:

[Chesney84]

Recently bought a cheap bottom end off eBay and began my engine build project. It had sat in a shed/garage for nigh on 8 years and was a little rusty but on inspection seems in very good condition bar the surface rust! Heres some photo's from the teardown:





Block is now at the acid dippers then will be hot washed and the top of the block will be checked to ensure its true and doesn't need machining. Will get a coat of black VHT wrinkle paint when its back as well!

[Keef layton]

Looks very tidy mate iv always loved the black 5s

[Chesney84]

With all the bits stripped and the engine at the dippers thought I'd make a start on cleaning the parts I'm hoping to re-use. The cam is tidy and doesn't seem to have faired too badly so will get this re-profiled at some point rather than buy new:

Same for the crankshaft, this will be re-used and machined. All the bits were thoroughly degreased and cleaned in a tray of brake cleaner with scotchbrite pads then cleaned in a high pressure hot water tank with detergent. Didn't come out too badly at all:

The standard flywheel is going to be lightened and the clutch face refinished but for now just got a good clean:

[Chesney84]

Decided to stick with stock con-rods I think, these will be NDT'd and inspected at work, then will go for shot peen and be lightened and balanced to mating forged pistons. Standard pistons are going to be removed this week. Also considering spark eroding a small hole through the con-rod and gas-porting the pistons (see link:https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...oney-pit-opens )

Here's some more of the parts cleaned up that may be re-used:

And final picture for tonight is the cam chain cover. Began to corrode badly inside and paint had started to peel, so cleaned it thoroughly then media blasted it to remove all the paint and corrosion. Going to be getting a nice coat of Black wrinkle VHT paint as well. Will arrive this week so will post photos as soon as its done:

[Chesney84]

Thinking of doing rocker cover and inlet manifold in VHT Red Wrinkle:

And doing engine block in VHT Black Wrinkle along with cam chain cover:

Have a rocker cover arriving this week as well so will post photo's of how they both look (black and red) and you can mock or praise it either way

[Chesney84]

Looks very tidy mate iv always loved the black 5s

Thanks buddy

I'd always wanted a Tungy grey 5 but when I saw this I fell in love with it, and in all honesty I think I prefer the black over the grey now but perhaps I'm biased!

[tubbyG]

Welcome to the club.

That looks like a nice 5. Interested to see the progress of your build

[Chesney84]

So been a few days but here is progress so far:

Going to re-use the cam followers, so these were cleaned and the sides lightly scotchbrite'd to remove the tarnish.

The face of the follower was polished to remove the sheen and prep the surface for the cam when it is re-profiled.

I have a friend who was able to obtain two syringes of diamond polishing paste, a fine (RED) or an incredibly fine (BROWN). These were polished on a small surface table until the shine was removed and the ever so slight mark left by the cam was removed.

[Chesney84]

Next up I received the two tins of VHT wrinkle paint I ordered so have started to paint some of the parts whilst the engine is at dipping. First time using this product and love the finish it gives, makes any part look "factory" almost.

The cam chain cover was looking tatty as the paint has started to peel and corrode inside and out. Gave it a wash then media blasted it

Then degreased and put it in the oven to take the chill off it and warm it up slightly

Sprayed 3 times, with a different direction on each application, with 5 minute intervals then baked in the oven at 100 degrees to cure/ dry it.

[Chesney84]

This next one is likely to divide the camp. I know most people hate them but I love dump valves, I know there is debate and arguments either way to suggest they detract rather than add to performance. However, the sound of a car making that infamous "whooooosh" always takes me back to my youth. Over the years I've had various brands of DV on my Impreza's (Forge, Turbosmart) but one in particular left its mark on me. The HKS SSQV - its so unique in its sound and operation. I bought a genuine early model (as most of the newer ones are heavily counterfeited now) second hand off of eBay and thought I'd give it a service.

Stripped down and shot blasted

Wrinkle VHT Red painted

Whilst it was in parts I ordered a new O-Ring and circlip, new stainless steel bolts, dome nuts and a flange adaptor to match up with my pipework. All the internals - seal, diaphragm and spring were all cleaned and checked.

Today I hooked it up to a regulator and checked it held pressure and actuated as it should. Sounds fantastic (to my ears anyway!)

Really happy with the look of it. Looks factory fresh although in hindsight think I would have preferred it in black but better than chrome IMHO.

[Matt Cole]

Love this thread matey. Keep it updated!!!

[tubbyG]

Nice work, those followers have come up a treat, look as good as new

[Chesney84]

Thanks chaps!

[Ian S]

Double piston is a lot better for 'off boost' keeping the pressure at maybe 6psi, whereas the single piston dumps it all. After a single piston, I used a Bailey double piston DV.

Another thing not so far mentioned that you might light to deal with is the rockers face that rubs on the followers. It seems that they wear and when fitting a taller cam, it moves them further, past their clean area, and there a much louder tapping noise than with the original camshaft, that eventually goes after maybe a thousand or so miles. Grinding those end wear edges off the faces might stop that and provide a quiet result.

[Chesney84]

Thanks for the advice again Ian! The rocker face tuning is a great idea!

[Chesney84]

Fitted the DV today just to try it out and make sure it operated ok on the car! Missed that sound, and yes I know the blue hoses and red valve clash (all the hoses will be replaced by red eventually!)

[Chesney84]

Oh and a sneaky peak of the block before the hot wash now that’s it’s been dipped, more photos of it to follow when I receive it on Monday!

[Chesney84]

Had a bit of a potter about today on the 5, fitted a K-Tec front strut brace:

Swapped out the standard intercooler for a second hand one which I bought off a member here:

Had a leaky boost hose around the pressure sensor which I smegged up as a temporary fix so swapped that out for a replacement (albeit 2nd hand as will be replacing all when I swap out the engine anyway).


Also fitted a towing eye as this was missing when I bought the car (had it blasted and then powder coated)

And finally, the rear seat was missing the handles that allow you to tilt the seat, one was missing completely and the other was snapped so fitted a replacement set:

Nothing exciting really, just lots of dicky little jobs to sort. Then gave it a good clean and polish!

[Chesney84]

Also managed to snaffle half a roll of gold tape. This isn't the crap stuff you see on eBay but the genuine stuff that contains actual gold. Planning on doing the parts of the bulkhead and sections underneath of the bonnet when I swap the engine over:

Also got some of this GTechniq plastic restoration treatment. This stuff is the mutts and have already tried it out on a few small areas. The big bottle is a detergent degreaser which you mix with water and wash the trim/ part. Then apply the contents of the small bottle with a cotton pad (like your missus takes her face off with). Genuinely takes white and tired grey trim back to factory fresh:

And here she is after her clean today:


Booked the Friday before the retro show off in order to get her fully minted up for the club stand and cleaned prior to driving to the show Saturday morning.

[Chesney84]

Been a while since I updated the thread but some jobs I've done are painted the rocker cover and polished up a second hand GT Tuning Ninja star oil cap:


Really love the wrinkle paint, can be quite tricky to get proper even coverage so it doesn't run or not wrinkle because its too thin but well worth the effort. This was my second attempt as the first went pear shaped!

[Chesney84]

Oil pump was fully stripped and cleaned. The mating faces were skimmed/ polished to get the tolerance to the vane as close as possible and shimmed out the plunger to aid oil pressure:

Another small job was to do away with the standard wipers as I prefer the clean look of the aero blades, going to order a Mk1 Clio rear arm for the back to tidy up the tailgate as well:

[Chesney84]

Got the block back from the dippers now and its mint. The engine services firm I'm using also went to the trouble of hot washing it when it returned to get it a bit cleaner and stoned all the mating and machined faces for me and wire wheeled any little bits that weren't up to scratch! Looks better than it did off the shelf 28 years ago:

[Chesney84]

And finally to stop it flash rusting while I'm working on it I've covered it in VHT Engine Grey Primer and WD40. The VHT range is great and really seems to do what it says on the tin!

Now that the block is back I can start the real work. Awaiting a price for some 77mm Wössner pistons and Westwood Ductile Liners. Might be able to get these at trade price so with the money saved I'm toying with the idea of getting some PEC forged rods as well instead of re-using the standard cast items.

In the mean time I'm going to work all the internal cast marks and raised areas within the engine to tidy it up and aid oil and water flow, tap out all the threads and blue-print as much as I can!

Will spend a bit more time at the weekend in depth explaining my plans and some better photos etc.

[Ian S]

I was told that you can see the con rods are forged by looking at them as the imprint from the press is evident. Was he not correct?

[Matt Cole]

That block has come out fantastic!!!

[Chesney84]

I was told that you can see the con rods are forged by looking at them as the imprint from the press is evident. Was he not correct?

I think the standard rods are cast then machine finished aren’t they? Or am I missing something?

[Chesney84]

That block has come out fantastic!!!

I know. I’m really impressed worth the way it’s come out. Acid Dip, hot wash then finished with wire wheels/ brushes. Now coated in VHT primer temporarily then will be hot washed before final build!

[Matty]

Car looks great! Good to see everything being done properly.

[Chesney84]

Car looks great! Good to see everything being done properly.

Thanks matey, not in a rush to build it so going to take my time and do everything right!

[Chesney84]

Right so its been a very productive start to the week! When I got in this morning I popped the flywheel in a tray full of Frosts Rust Remover and I'm astonished by the results! It smells almost fruity and doesn't have any major warning labels or hazardous symbols so I can only assume its Citric acid based. It can be re-used often until it becomes too contaminated, if you have a look further up the thread you can see the flywheel in some other shots of parts from when I got the engine and you wouldn't believe its the same flywheel now. When things get a little quieter a work I plan to lightly skim the face and lighten it, but for now this will do:

[Chesney84]

After toying back and forth as to whether or not to go Forged or Standard I have decided to stick with the original conrods, so once the flywheel was out, in they went to the Frosts Rust Remover bath. Once removed from the "acid-bath" they went into the hot pressure wash tank and they looked brand new (if not better).

Now I'm very fortunate to work in a company that has some incredible facilities and equipment, so once I'd finished with them, I dropped them in at our inspection and NDT department. They were Magnaflux'd followed by a thorough inspection to confirm that they were sound which they were. From there I dropped them into Laser Etching and had them labelled up to save any confusion and to assist with the build.

[Chesney84]

And now on to the interesting stuff! Looking at the ARP catalogue and online I couldn't find any uprated rod bolts anywhere for use with the standard rods for a C1J. My colleague (the old boy who's building the engine with me) said he had just the thing for me:

They are a 3/8" BMC A-Series rod bolt kit, the plan being to machine the bores to accept the bolts then slightly machine the land on the top of the rod to accommodate the different head shape. I was amazed how close they were to the original bolt.

Very little material will have to be removed in order to accommodate the new bolts, the shank length is perfect (even better than the original), and the wider part of the shank sits nicely in the join of the two halves of the conrod.

These will be bored out to accommodate the bolts, then the mating faces will be lightly skimmed, the conrod reassembled then honed back to size for the bearing. People may think this is a lot of work on standard rods, however, these will be more than man enough for the task in hand, the ARP bolts were peanuts as were unwanted stock so haven't cost me much and the machine work will be at mates rates. Even adding all this up they will be cheaper than reputable forged Rods. One final thing to add is that after advice received from people on this forum I have aborted the spark eroded squirt jet hole in the rods I previously suggested, deciding in favour of a conrod oil squirter groove.

It works in the same way by promoting splash of spent oil from the bearing towards the piston crown, but without the fear of damage from oil starvation or low pressure that may occur by robbing the bearing feed with the hole. Hope that makes sense Once this groove has been machined in the rods are planning on getting shot peened locally.

[Chesney84]

Oh and my engine guy, Steve, is heading to the states again at the end of the month with his drag racing and is taking a used main and head bolt with him. He says that the trackside ARP reps out there cannot be more helpful if they tried (and considerably cheaper too), so he's going to try and locate studs and nuts to match the bolts in length and shank. The plan being to have the head and main bearings on studs and nuts instead of bolts. Another thing I've forgotten to mention is that the head and block will both be having machining to accommodate an additional ring dowel (two instead of one) for a more positive location. More to follow tomorrow, if real work doesn't get in the way of my engine work!

[Matt Cole]

What a brilliant thread this is turning out to be! Very interesting and the attention to detail for the engine is awesome!

Stuart Clarke used a company called KPM for all his engine builds. They were 'old school bit did everything properly. His engine was very well received in the drag racing community.

[Chesney84]

What a brilliant thread this is turning out to be! Very interesting and the attention to detail for the engine is awesome!

Stuart Clarke used a company called KPM for all his engine builds. They were 'old school bit did everything properly. His engine was very well received in the drag racing community.

Thanks pal! Steve (the old boy I work with who’s guiding me through this build) used to work as an engine builder in Germany for BMW in the F1 Turbo era and was trackside building and looking after them. Nowadays he spends his time building drag engines for his main client and at the request of others. Can’t remember whether it’s pro-mod or pro-stock. He knows his stuff so much that his client is flying him out to the states at the end of the month to do some work for him! He is very old school and most of what we are doing is in his head. I have basically told him to build one as if it were his own, and I’m just taking instruction from him. We may have changed direction from the original 250+ bhp plan we talked about, instead going for something more “conservative” but with ultra fast spool up and lots of low-end torque. Before any of that though we are just getting all the basics sorted then will decide which route we are taking!

[francob80]

After toying back and forth as to whether or not to go Forged or Standard I have decided to stick with the original conrods, so once the flywheel was out, in they went to the Frosts Rust Remover bath. Once removed from the "acid-bath" they went into the hot pressure wash tank and they looked brand new (if not better).

Now I'm very fortunate to work in a company that has some incredible facilities and equipment, so once I'd finished with them, I dropped them in at our inspection and NDT department. They were Magnaflux'd followed by a thorough inspection to confirm that they were sound which they were. From there I dropped them into Laser Etching and had them labelled up to save any confusion and to assist with the build.

Recently bent a standard rod but pushing 230-235lbft, not bad at all.

[Matt Cole]

Recently bent a standard rod but pushing 230-235lbft, not bad at all.

I remember Stu clarke running ~40psi of boost through the carb on stock rods and crank. They did eventually bend!!

[Matt Cole]

Thanks pal! Steve (the old boy I work with who’s guiding me through this build) used to work as an engine builder in Germany for BMW in the F1 Turbo era and was trackside building and looking after them. Nowadays he spends his time building drag engines for his main client and at the request of others. Can’t remember whether it’s pro-mod or pro-stock. He knows his stuff so much that his client is flying him out to the states at the end of the month to do some work for him! He is very old school and most of what we are doing is in his head. I have basically told him to build one as if it were his own, and I’m just taking instruction from him. We may have changed direction from the original 250+ bhp plan we talked about, instead going for something more “conservative” but with ultra fast spool up and lots of low-end torque. Before any of that though we are just getting all the basics sorted then will decide which route we are taking!

Very interested in what your builder says about the 1950's Cleon engine, and whether any improvements can be made?

[Chesney84]

Recently bent a standard rod but pushing 230-235lbft, not bad at all.

Thats double the standard torque so not bad at all really! Although I have heard a lot of scare stories suggesting the method of heating them up to remove the pins can often be the culprit of bent rods.

[Chesney84]

I remember Stu clarke running ~40psi of boost through the carb on stock rods and crank. They did eventually bend!!

Thats is an impressive amount of boost, no wonder they gave in!

[Chesney84]

Very interested in what your builder says about the 1950's Cleon engine, and whether any improvements can be made?

Steve just wants everything doing right, down to every last component to ensure we get the best/ most from each of them. He has no intention of re-inventing the wheel, and we both know that pretty much every avenue will have been tried and exhausted over the years with the aim of maximising power, torque, boost, spool up etc. He's big on drivability over out and out power when it comes to his road builds -suggesting we build an engine thats strong throughout the rev range, with a strong torque curve, rather than something too laggy or peaky. Although we do realise that ultimately this will limit the max power we will be able to achieve. Not only that but a well prepped and built engine with moderate power will be far more reliable and maintenance friendly than a high power one on the limit. Current specs are being considered at the minute, but thinking so far is a small to medium turbo, increase compression ratio (through skimming), fully lightened and balanced bottom end, water-methanol injection in order to allow us to run a little more advance, some nice valves and headwork. Ultimately power will not be the headline grabbing figures I was hoping and quoting to achieve at the start of this build/ thread, but in the real world, on real roads a well sorted ~175bhp "5" will be as quick as 250bhp lag monster grappling for grip and torque steering everywhere. As soon as we have a definitive spec, I'll update the thread so you can all throw your ideas into the mix

[francob80]

Ultimately power will not be the headline grabbing figures I was hoping and quoting to achieve at the start of this build/ thread, but in the real world, on real roads a well sorted ~175bhp "5" will be as quick as 250bhp lag monster grappling for grip and torque steering everywhere.

Completely disagree.

I'm around 255hp/230lbft, spooling by 3k, 20psi by 4k, full boost by just over 5k and revving to 7.5k, literally no torque steer and almost zero issues with grip with R888s. The power is so progressive you don't get a sudden hit of torque/power spinning the wheels. Granted hard launches would spin the tyres in 1st & 2nd but as a road car it's good all round package. In short, a 175hp 5 wouldn't stand a chance. I'd argue you'll struggle more with lack of grip and torque steer with a smaller turbo/quick spooling set up.

[Ian S]

• Do you really need those fancy bolts when all the load is in compression and the standard ones have proven for decades to be up to the job. Unless you're aiming for 10,000rpm where there's more load on the bolts as they stop the pistons from hitting the head. But you can't rev that C1J, Sparkie tried, he found there's insufficient lubrication to the cam and it's bearings ovalise, and the push rods keep coming off and often bending. I don't recall any problems with the rods or bolts though. Jim said you can see the standard rods are forged by the shape and marks of the edges where they were stamped by the press . I've not confirmed that elsewhere, nor compared cast and forged so I don't personally know.

• As Scoff will tell you, when properly mapped, ie, not the Renix ECU, the water injection makes no difference to the boost you can run / power you can make. I had water inj in the 5 from about 15 years ago, it may have allowed another psi or two, but I couldn't retard the advance a bit at 3500 when it pinked a tiny bit, which would have been better.

• Big valves reduce the gas velocity over the ports and cause a laggy lower drive-ability engine. They're good for big power. Plenty of 5GTT owners have had big valve heads and said the same.

• Pretty soon, 175bhp is boring and slow, and it's NOT quicker, on the lanes, duals and motorways anyway. I probably had approaching that in the earlier engine, but the latter one...., different category, seemed twice as fast everywhere, could overtake with ease on lanes where before there just wasn't quite enough speed differential available. In traffic and 20 to 40mph it can be more hard work, so if you plan to only use the car in the city at that speed then yes, a small turbo, low boost, will be better, otherwise, no. From the late 1990's onward, just about everyone made 200bhp with modest tuning and boost and none of the extreme work you're doing. And had reliability. Standard head, no port matching, standard compression, standard valves, no water injection, no skimmed block, no wire ringing liner tops, no 'steel; liners, no extreme lightening and balancing (like I had, courtesy of Jim) usually no dished pistons, no fancy rods, bolts, no 4 into 1 exhaust, etc.. For 220 to 320bhp and above, then yes.

Not being antagonistic Just that we know. So many of us have been there, done it, over many years of experimentation. The work you're doing is more of an academic exercise that probably won't yield much, if any benefit. There have been, more or less standard, engines making plenty of power and done many miles with reliability, 'Tractor Trev', used to drag race his 5, was one of the quick men, and had, in large text on the rear window, 250,000 miles (completed with that engine I think it was).

Both my failures were at 7000rpm, where collects came off, it looks like, both cases, first one anyway, so not boost or power related. 25psi, high revving for years, flat shifting often, medium and big turbo, boost and torque, engine bit of a lash up experiment really, like many from big Jim, but they worked well and were not unreliable and were part of a development program. Not doing 10,000 revs I live in eastern London in the traffic, but also near the county lanes and duals, which now days have a camera every few hundred metres, so no longer any point in driving a fast car.

I get it for people who now need a standard OE engine bay to maintain originality for the resale value, or don't have the support to do a better power plant, but, after 15 years of driving a 5GTT, the latter half modified with probably 220bhp and plenty of ft lbs, I'd not go back to that clattering noisy, low revving, inefficient, 8 valve antique tractor engine from, or before, the 1950s. Unless needing a 1.4 to avoid higher cat tax, With more cc's, 1.7 or 2 litre, one can have both the easy low speed driving, quiet, a mountain of torque, controllable 250bhp, 230 ft lbs from just 6psi boost. A couple of pals had the same Vauxhall Nova, it had a 2 litre XE red top with C&B cams, side draught carbs, worked internals, and nitrous. Apparently 185 without the nitrous, I drove that and it was a very nice and usable power delivery, smoked the tyres from idle, revved to 9000 pulling hard all the way. Made a mockery of modern turbo'd small and medium 'sporty' cars, probably it only weighted 850kg's? It gave the same shove in the back as the turbo'd 5GTT, but anywhere and any time with no lag, and one didn't have mollycoddle a turbo.

So, that just reinforced that the turboed 1.4 is about tax breaks and should be about efficiency, but I never got more than 28 around town, and 19mpg latterly, so not efficient in those terms, but yes to power per CC. No to achieving both around town lag free brisk delivery and flexibility, and also open road big power, one or the other. Using a VNT helped a lot if it could be made work well.



Sorry if I wrote too much there. Went in to reminiscence mode!

[Ian S]

I'd argue you'll struggle more with lack of grip and torque steer with a smaller turbo/quick spooling set up.

Agreed

Mike Spenser turned up here one night with a new turbo to play with, smaller than his big one off the record breaking setup.

It was a lot of mad fun, what 5's are probably supposed to be about, as it snapped the wheels into spinning at about 5000rpm in 1st to 3rd, maybe 4th, but had nothing beyond that. Slower overall than the easy going big turbo that kept the engine pulling up to 7500 or whatever, but without that sudden peak and squeak.

[Chesney84]

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all the info and advice guys. The reason why I joined this forum in the first place was for this very reason; to garner knowledge from those that have already been there and done it. I'll have a think and talk it over with Steve in the coming weeks and show him this thread and see what he thinks.

What you are saying is true - this is an engineering exercise, putting lots of different techniques and ideas into one engine, not because it needs it, but because we can - and it won't hurt, only help or improve (maybe not in power, but efficiency, reliability etc.) Yes dropping I larger lump in would yield more power, and would ultimately be easier, but it really doesn't interest me. I'm not in it for the cost either (fuel economy, road tax) and dropping in a bigger lump would be a cheaper and less complicated way of going about it but I want to keep the C1J block and have a play and see what I can do with it.

Thanks once again guys, all the replies are very much appreciated

[Ian S]

Jim said one thing the block needed was ladder bracing for the crank.

Which I've seen in the Fiat engines, Punto, etc., not sure if my Cinquecento 1108cc Fire engine has it, but the 1.4 litre T jet's do.

Seems that there's too much flexing with the C1J block and the cranks can bend, the blocks can crack. Jim had them where he'd taken off the crank bearings and the crank sort of sprang out and wouldn't turn and he got that C1J block line bored so it could be re-used.

Apparently some of the 1.7 litre and 2 litre use the same C1J block, or similar. The 5GTX and Monaco, and some early Megane. And maybe the Williams 2 litre used the 1.7 litre block.

He did a nice turbo conversion to one of those 1.7 litres. It was 16 valves, bespoke cams.