Re: Sid Dawn roller rockers and sleeved pushrods.

**Trevhib** · 25-02-2013, 16:45

Originally Posted by Mart

At least you saw my posts; 99% of the time they're invisible

Yep, pretty much as you say, plus, imho, I think a stock stick with increased lift will make for a good all-rounder, even on the larger turbo setups. But again, I could be wrong

No ratios have been decided upon yet, unless 'Sid' has already worked out what's what, plus I guess he'd be the only one who'd know how much meat there is on his roller rockers to allow for moving the pushrod cup closer to the centreline.

It would appear that 2mm closer equates to a ratio of 1.74, so on a stock cam that would give a 1.2-1.3mm increase in valve lift & a natural increase in the curtain area (as Woz mentioned before). That's a good start I reckon

As for sleeving the rods, that's simply to increase their (lateral) load threshold.

Thanks.

So we're all in anticipation of what's to be gained then

One thing, I'm looking at the pic of the first batch sat on the bench (in the post above), and it looks like they are complete/ready to fit (minus the bearing maybe?). That's why I thought the ratio had been decided upon. I guess that's because I don't understand which part of the rocker design relates to the ratio and how it needs to be changed in order to alter that ratio. I see the diags showing a different placement of the hole on the rod side, but I don't understand why moving its position results in a change either (or what that change is)?

**Red October** · 25-02-2013, 18:17

Got the rods cheers sid. Theres no way these badboys are going to break. By next friday ill try and get some videos of the rockers and rods in action (more importantly the sound) if the engines running fingers crossed.

Whats the latest on the spacer? One of the heads having bigger valves is down to 72.66mm head depth, so I may require a solution here

**Sid Dawn** · 25-02-2013, 19:25

Originally Posted by Red October

Got the rods cheers sid. Theres no way these badboys are going to break. By next friday ill try and get some videos of the rockers and rods in action (more importantly the sound) if the engines running fingers crossed.

Whats the latest on the spacer? One of the heads having bigger valves is down to 72.66mm head depth, so I may require a solution here

cool

yeh they are very very strong now...before it was easy to bend a rod but now it realy does take some effort to bend them..
head spacer could be sorted pritty quick as I've done all the test cuts to check fitment..just need to order some from a place I know (as they will be laser cut and we don't laser alloy)

BIG QUESTION IS HOW THICK DO YOU WANT IT..2MM-3MM??

**Red October** · 25-02-2013, 19:53

Will I have to have 2x1.9mm gaskets on there sid?

**Sid Dawn** · 25-02-2013, 20:01

tyou will have to have 2 gaskets yes.

however from what I hear some people say standard gaskets are good for high bhp...of course this is why I've done the head spacer 'cos most heads are now skimmed and foke still chuck 20+psi down the head...with space getting smaller and the stroke staying the same all that pressure has no where to compres...just blows out the gasket..even worse if you have a in car boost control...

'cos we all know that just a lil more not hurt

..then pop..ooooops

lots have been there...even me

**Sid Dawn** · 25-02-2013, 20:17

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8219
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8218
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8217

These are Standard (what I'm making now) and 1.74 ratio...the one with bush and bearing is ratio one..

I'm sending these 3D printed ones to Mart so he can have a look at them and let me know what he thinks and any changes that maybe needed

**Red October** · 25-02-2013, 20:17

1.9 multi layered steel + 2mm spacer+ 1.9 multi layered steel gasket= will it hold? What will it do to the compression? Losts of pros and cons or are they all just pros?

The big valve head ive had made is 72.66mm so its getting low and this could be a serious answer to a serious question, standard were 73.5?

**bas8897** · 26-02-2013, 01:30

You only use one gasket with a decompression plate not two.

**Red October** · 26-02-2013, 01:47

Ive just spent the last two hour researching and you are right one gasket only. Your supposed to fit the gasket as normal, apply a blue sealant to the shim/spacer and "glue" it to the head and bolt up. If I had a 1mm spacer with a 1.9mm gasket that wouldnt put me far off standard head compression.

Might give this one a go, whats the concensus say.........?

**Red October** · 26-02-2013, 13:44

Ive gathered.

Step 1. Put gasket on block.
Step 2. Apply blue hylomar to........ one side of the spacer. (head side methinks)
Step 3. Stick spacer to the head, line up with gasket and bolt up.

Simple?!? Too simple for my liking........

What effect will putting in a 2mm spacer in do to my compression/timing etc....
Is there a limit to how much boost this spacer arrangement will take?
I dont mind being a ginuie pig for this modification but i could do with a couple of assurances on a couple of points.....before i go balls out make a mistake and ruin my expensive rebuild.

I understand with all R&D modifications nothing is certain, perhaps im losing my bottle!

**Red October** · 26-02-2013, 15:40

WOW

Been on the phone to hylomar uk who are the leading gasket resin specialists in the UK. Chris at technical says that their product has been use on numerous spacer builds in the country and abroad. Theyve never had one complaint either he genuinley stated. The paste is good for 300c temps and remains viscious but importantly doesnt move/break down when in contact with other hot liquids like oil and water.

I think im going to try a 2mm plate and see how we go, the highest boost ive seen with spacers using blue hylomar is 30+ fords in the UK and USA. In the USA spacers (they call them shims) are common place, theres a turb vr6 golf running 26psi on one of the forums when ive been researching. If the car goes POP then so be it (2k all in if anyone wants to buy it when its dead lol) at least we've tried!

Come on Sid Dawn lets get our thinking caps on!

Downloaded from VR6 turbo forum:
Fitting Instructions

Before beginning the installation, the SaverShim should be matched to the cylinder head gasket and checked visually.

1. Prepare the mating surfaces: these must be flat, clean and dry with no scratches or marks.
2. Apply a liquid or spray sealant to the block or head (depending upon the application*) to seal the SaverShim. Gosnay's Engineering recommend and supply Wellseal.
3. Install the SaverShim on to the cylinder head or block*. Check all oil and water passages plus bolt holes for alignment.
[*NOTE: On Rover K & Peugeot XUD series engines, SaverShims must be fitted to the cylinder head NOT the block.]
4. Place head gasket on top of SaverShim (*EXCEPT Rover K and Peugeot XUD series engines where the head gasket must be fitted to the cylinder block in the usual way).
5. Fit cylinder head to block
NOTE: On cylinder heads with stretch type bolts, new ones should be fitted. (We will be pleased to supply these.)
6. Tighten the cylinder head bolts in the sequence and to the torque setting prescribed by the manufacturer.

**Sid Dawn** · 26-02-2013, 19:43

Just an update on the second batch of roller rockers...sent them off to anodizers today and hope to have them ready for delivery mid March.... 'cos of intrest a £40 deposit would be nice to secure a set...

**stu21t** · 26-02-2013, 20:42

very cool product, and a very interesting thread.

just for a bit more info, the reyland escort cosworth runs a 25mm spacer.
its slightly different as it has long liners that go through the spacer too but that runs well over 2bar and over 700bhp!

http://passionford.com/forum/traders...all-block.html

**Red October** · 26-02-2013, 21:08

Originally Posted by stu21t

very cool product, and a very interesting thread.

just for a bit more info, the reyland escort cosworth runs a 25mm spacer.
its slightly different as it has long liners that go through the spacer too but that runs well over 2bar and over 700bhp!

http://passionford.com/forum/traders...all-block.html

A super thread is in order for this build. I will call it project X lol.
If the standard spacer works then we can have a play with some different sizes and comp ratio adjusting with the newer ratio rockers and reinforced rods.

If we can bring this one home sid can have the handle "mad scientist"

**Sid Dawn** · 26-02-2013, 21:17

Originally Posted by Red October

A super thread is in order for this build. I will call it project X lol.
If the standard spacer works then we can have a play with some different sizes and comp ratio adjusting with the newer ratio rockers and reinforced rods.

If we can bring this one home sid can have the handle "mad scientist"

That will be DR MAD SCIENTIST to you...

**Red October** · 26-02-2013, 21:21

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

That will be DR MAD SCIENTIST to you...

You can call me Susan if the spacer works

**Sid Dawn** · 27-02-2013, 20:38

Bit of timing chain cover porn...

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8232
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8230
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8231

**r5_scotty** · 27-02-2013, 20:53

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

Bit of timing chain cover porn...

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8232
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8230
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8231

oooooohhhhhhhh i like that

pm for you

**jesus in the seat of a 5** · 27-02-2013, 20:54

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

Bit of timing chain cover porn...

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8232
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8230
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8231

hmmmmmmm, your gonna need a bigger deposit sid...

**Tony Walker** · 27-02-2013, 21:07

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

Bit of timing chain cover porn...

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8232
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8230
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8231

Awesome

**Woznaldo** · 28-02-2013, 06:41

Lovely work Sidney.

**Alastair** · 28-02-2013, 08:26

Originally Posted by Mart

Another one of those invisible posts

I had to do the same Mart, lots of meat to whip a bit off the push rod holes. Almost every engine I've seen with a hot cam has tell marks on the push rods...!

**Os8472** · 28-02-2013, 09:02

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

Bit of timing chain cover porn...

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8232
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8230
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8231

Porn like that is illegal

What's that made of fella?

**Woznaldo** · 28-02-2013, 09:33

Originally Posted by Alastair

I had to do the same Mart, lots of meat to whip a bit off the push rod holes. Almost every engine I've seen with a hot cam has tell marks on the push rods...!

Do you Mart think there is enough 'meat' to remove some for clearance?

**Mart** · 28-02-2013, 10:51

Yes mate, there is. It shouldn't have to be opened up too much, and possibly not at all with a standard cam.

Btw, many thanks Steven - I received the 'templates' this morning

Once I get my DTI back *cough, Big Steve, cough*, I'll get measuring.

Nice work on the timing covers too

**Nottswoody** · 28-02-2013, 11:49

Originally Posted by Os8472

Porn like that is illegal

What's that made of fella?

I'm having one straight away

**Logg** · 28-02-2013, 11:55

Awesome my fabricator never got round to making one for me.

evenough I gave hime 5 covers to play around with.

Whats the estimated price of these timing chain covers?

**Sid Dawn** · 28-02-2013, 14:19

hoping to be around £90-£100..deliverd..

If I can make them myself...work permited

guna be made from alloy anodized to protect..

**Brigsy** · 28-02-2013, 14:29

Is there means for a seal on the bottom of the timing chain cover?

**Sid Dawn** · 28-02-2013, 14:31

where it meats with sump...yeh will be same or better than what is already used...also making sure get good seal on pully shaft aswell...

**Os8472** · 28-02-2013, 14:33

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

hoping to be around £90-£100..deliverd..

If I can make them myself...work permited

guna be made from alloy anodized to protect..

Sounds good to me

just wish these were around when I was going ott with my C1J

I dunno if the 9 warrants too many shiney bits

**Logg** · 28-02-2013, 15:40

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

hoping to be around £90-£100..deliverd..

If I can make them myself...work permited

guna be made from alloy anodized to protect..

That's me sold.

happy days

**dangerous dave** · 28-02-2013, 17:10

Fire up a group buy on the covers and watch the names line up..

**robw** · 28-02-2013, 17:22

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

Bit of timing chain cover porn...

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8232
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8230
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8231

Exciting C1J developments

**DaveL485** · 01-03-2013, 11:39

Appreciate some of the work here, very nice.

Do you do 1-off bespoke requests? One or two sets of 12 roller rockers, but within the set there are 2 different versions of rocker (angled outwards, mirror image).

SOHC engine.

**Matt Cole** · 01-03-2013, 13:20

Is this not something the club could do with in the shop?

**Sid Dawn** · 01-03-2013, 13:58

Originally Posted by dangerous dave

Fire up a group buy on the covers and watch the names line up..

ok so I've got the price in from a few companys to make the timing chain covers....
this is what I'm guna do...
first off the price for a cover is guna be £150 ('cos I'm not making it I don't have much say in this)

second If you pm me I'll start up a list of who is having..(not would like but having)
then if there enuff intrest I'll want deposits to comform then I'll put the order in...

have made 14 sets of rockers with 14 people wanting them then when it comes to the penneys have backed out...

sorry the cover are so much but I spent a lot of time on rockers making them myself to get let down ...not guna happen again

cheers

**Mart** · 01-03-2013, 14:50

Welcome to the rtoc 'rule of 3'...

**Nottswoody** · 01-03-2013, 14:59

Sorry bud but £150 is too much for me I'm out. It's fantastic work it really is the best I have seen keep up the good work..

**Red October** · 01-03-2013, 16:00

Originally Posted by Sid Dawn

ok so I've got the price in from a few companys to make the timing chain covers....
this is what I'm guna do...
first off the price for a cover is guna be £150 ('cos I'm not making it I don't have much say in this)

second If you pm me I'll start up a list of who is having..(not would like but having)
then if there enuff intrest I'll want deposits to comform then I'll put the order in...

have made 14 sets of rockers with 14 people wanting them then when it comes to the penneys have backed out...

sorry the cover are so much but I spent a lot of time on rockers making them myself to get let down ...not guna happen again

cheers

Sad to hear that Sid.

If you say yes and back out thats unfair. Just deal with the ones who have got the brass.

**Logg** · 01-03-2013, 17:07

£150 is a bit too much for me for the cam cover.

I'm out.

**Trevhib** · 01-03-2013, 17:25

Are all 14 who said yes to rockers RTOC members??

Always best to get deposits first.

I'm sure you will shift them over time and not be out of pocket.

**r5_scotty** · 01-03-2013, 19:02

we was chatting about that the other day.shame really

only say yes if you want it!

**robw** · 01-03-2013, 20:19

So many let downs around, my advice would be to not start making anything until everyone has paid up at least a 20% deposit. Hope you can do it this way and carry on making these parts.

**gttjames** · 01-03-2013, 20:47

Just get a group buy list going and like said 10/20% deposit shows people are serious.

Iv stuck to all my group buys, bms and koni's and maybe some more cant remember

I like the idea of this, am currently running 270 cam but if I went 285 id have one!

**Woznaldo** · 01-03-2013, 22:44

Sid, were the people who backed buying the std ratio rockers?

Deposit is definitely the way to go and then wait until you have enough names (with deposits) to make it viable for you.

There are lots of Group Buys that I have thought it was a very good product/price but just didn't have the cash, so I didn't put my name down.

**Sid Dawn** · 02-03-2013, 08:34

Originally Posted by Woznaldo

Sid, were the people who backed buying the std ratio rockers?

Deposit is definitely the way to go and then wait until you have enough names (with deposits) to make it viable for you.

There are lots of Group Buys that I have thought it was a very good product/price but just didn't have the cash, so I didn't put my name down.

Yes mate standard ratio...

**Mart** · 02-03-2013, 08:45

Steven, how many sets do you have left, and at what price could you sell them to rtoc'ers, either via a group buy thread on here, or the club shop?

I'm fairly confident they'll then be shifted either way mate

**Sid Dawn** · 02-03-2013, 19:00

update on the timing chain cover.....

as the £150 is far to much for anyone (even me)...I've done a lot more thinking and may have a plan c..

..

**Matt Cole** · 02-03-2013, 19:40

Originally Posted by Matt Cole

Is this not something the club could do with in the shop?

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