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  1. #51
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    if you're able to apply pressure to the actuator have a look at how much pressure it takes to fully open the VNT, also check that it does fully open.

    do you think you could have a leak in the pipe to the actuator?

    Have you tie-wrapped the pipe to the actuator? mine leaked at a bar.

  2. #52
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    oh yeah, I think VW use a MAF sensor, which I think is where we started however many months ago...

  3. #53
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    Its proper annoying, I knew that no one has managed to map a VNT with EFI properly
    Mr Cooke has!!

  4. #54
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashy View Post
    Mr Cooke has!!
    wrong, as I said way back, you can't map out how much the VNT changes the VE of the engine with a MAP sensor.

  5. #55
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    anyway, another question for you, which side of the throttle does the actuator pipe go to?

  6. #56
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke View Post
    if you really think a smaller throttle is what you want try and limit how far the one you have opens.
    Sorta tried that already and it seems to work, I tie wrapped a piece of wood to the underside of the throttle peddle bodge it and scarpper lol

  7. #57
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    The actuator is opening fully as far as I can tell.

    I've replace the actutor hose twice and no change.

    I always tie wrap vacuum hoses, I've seen what happens when they come loose.

    The actuator pipe connects after the throttle body.

    Call me stupid, whats the VE of an engine?

  8. #58
    Non-member Wayno's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    I knew that no one has managed to map a VNT with EFI properly
    Really?

    Great thread, I have been reading this from the start. Good to see more EFI C1J's being built.

    Stick with it mate, you'll get there in the end I'm sure. It'll be worth all the stress, money and time.

  9. #59
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    The actuator pipe connects after the throttle body.

    Call me stupid, whats the VE of an engine?
    sounds like you need a wastegate then. You wouldn't be the first to use one with a VNT.

    Actuator pipe needs to be before the throttle, otherwise when you close the throttle the vanes will try and keep the boost up - ie you won't really be controlling the power with your foot.

    VE - Volumetric Efficiency. ie how much air flows through the engine at a particular RPM

  10. #60
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke View Post
    sounds like you need a wastegate then. You wouldn't be the first to use one with a VNT.

    Actuator pipe needs to be before the throttle, otherwise when you close the throttle the vanes will try and keep the boost up - ie you won't really be controlling the power with your foot.

    VE - Volumetric Efficiency. ie how much air flows through the engine at a particular RPM
    How has everyone else plumbed in a wastegate? did ya get a cutom manifold made up or is there some kinda adaptor that'll fit between the manifold and turbo?

    Right I'll move the actuator pipe to before the throttle body, me being dumb didn't know you shouldn't have it after.

    So what does VE actually mean then? is there a maximum air flow? how do you measure it?

  11. #61
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    So what does VE actually mean then? is there a maximum air flow? how do you measure it?

  12. #62
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevhib View Post
    Ha ha very funny

  13. #63
    Loose Bolts Tuning stuTHC's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    Ha ha very funny
    ..........but true http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volumetric_efficiency

  14. #64
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Thanks Stu. Given you're trying to sort out EFI on the C1J, it wasn't hard eh Os.

  15. #65
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    it should really be a common sence thing for any engine builder, or tuner atleast! whoever mapped your car should know this stuff. if you have a variable restrictor (VNT) on the output of an engine (exhaust) then the ammount of air the engine consumes will vary accordingly. it all becomes a bit 3d. no longer is airflow connected only to manifold pressure and RPM but it's dependant on the the VNT too. since you need to match fuel with air then the afr is going to shift about as the vnt does it's thing.

    now I've never mapped a car with VNT so I'm probably talking bollocks but I'd guess that I might be able to map the on-boost portion of map a bit rich to cover my arse, not ideal!

  16. #66
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    it should really be a common sence thing for any engine builder, or tuner atleast! whoever mapped your car should know this stuff. if you have a variable restrictor (VNT) on the output of an engine (exhaust) then the ammount of air the engine consumes will vary accordingly. it all becomes a bit 3d. no longer is airflow connected only to manifold pressure and RPM but it's dependant on the the VNT too. since you need to match fuel with air then the afr is going to shift about as the vnt does it's thing.

    now I've never mapped a car with VNT so I'm probably talking bollocks but I'd guess that I might be able to map the on-boost portion of map a bit rich to cover my arse, not ideal!
    you're spot on there, and that's what I did. I'm hoping that it's better with the reduced overlap of my new cam. The problem is, it also means you have to be conservative with the timing too. The other thing I'm doing is mapping the VNT position, so that should mean that the vanes are always in the same position in the same part of the map - give or take any transients...

  17. #67
    Non-member Mudslinger's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke View Post
    you're spot on there, and that's what I did. I'm hoping that it's better with the reduced overlap of my new cam. The problem is, it also means you have to be conservative with the timing too. The other thing I'm doing is mapping the VNT position, so that should mean that the vanes are always in the same position in the same part of the map - give or take any transients...
    that sounds like an expensive mapping session on the rollers /dyno ?

  18. #68
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by stuTHC View Post
    Interesting read, still not sure on everything but then I'm no engineer lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevhib View Post
    Thanks Stu. Given you're trying to sort out EFI on the C1J, it wasn't hard eh Os.
    Oi, efi is the easy bit, getting it to work with a vnt is hard bit and before you say I'm not mapping it, I wouldn't have a clue, thats why I'm letting Dave do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    it should really be a common sence thing for any engine builder, or tuner atleast! whoever mapped your car should know this stuff. if you have a variable restrictor (VNT) on the output of an engine (exhaust) then the ammount of air the engine consumes will vary accordingly. it all becomes a bit 3d. no longer is airflow connected only to manifold pressure and RPM but it's dependant on the the VNT too. since you need to match fuel with air then the afr is going to shift about as the vnt does it's thing.

    now I've never mapped a car with VNT so I'm probably talking bollocks but I'd guess that I might be able to map the on-boost portion of map a bit rich to cover my arse, not ideal!
    See thats interesting cus Dave had no problem getting the fueling to sit at exactly the afr he wanted, even when the boost shot up to silly amounts the fueling stayed spot on, when JP helped my rasie the rev limit he connected his LM-1 and watched the fueling and it never ran lean, even Dave hadn't finished the fueling map that far the ECU's factory defults were still in place which is to run abit rich which it did, it doesn't seem to have any problem fueling the VNT, just keeping the boost under control is the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke View Post
    you're spot on there, and that's what I did. I'm hoping that it's better with the reduced overlap of my new cam. The problem is, it also means you have to be conservative with the timing too. The other thing I'm doing is mapping the VNT position, so that should mean that the vanes are always in the same position in the same part of the map - give or take any transients...
    How do you map the vane positions? scurb that how do you even tell where they are?

  19. #69
    Non-member Andrew Cooke's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    See thats interesting cus Dave had no problem getting the fueling to sit at exactly the afr he wanted, even when the boost shot up to silly amounts the fueling stayed spot on, when JP helped my rasie the rev limit he connected his LM-1 and watched the fueling and it never ran lean, even Dave hadn't finished the fueling map that far the ECU's factory defults were still in place which is to run abit rich which it did, it doesn't seem to have any problem fueling the VNT, just keeping the boost under control is the problem



    How do you map the vane positions? scurb that how do you even tell where they are?
    On the dyno things are static, it's when you get on and off the throttle that the fuelling goes silly. Maybe you won't see it, depending upon how fast your lamda reacts. I log this stuff and get to worry about it later. That said you won't have the overlap, or flow of my engine, so maybe it won't get so pissy about backpressure.

    measuring and controlling stuff just costs time and money...

  20. #70
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    Interesting read, still not sure on everything but then I'm no engineer lol.

    Oi, efi is the easy bit, getting it to work with a vnt is hard bit and before you say I'm not mapping it, I wouldn't have a clue, thats why I'm letting Dave do it.
    Fair play Os. The only thing I'd say is that you're asking for a lot of help from certain members in bottoming this boost/fuelling/VNT issue. I'm sure the guys are more than happy to help and the thread is really interesting for the rest of us. In return for the assitance you're getting however, you'd have thought you'd at least be using Google where possible (i.e. to help you understand physics/mechanics basics), instead of adding the extra load to Andy (or whoever).

  21. #71
    Non-member Brigsy's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Might be worth looking at other turbo options instead of the vnt? Plenty of good blowers out there. Is it really worth all the hassle of trying to set it up, i.e mapping costs, parts & time wasted etc.

  22. #72
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Bob on Brigsy

    If it were that much aggro (and let's be honest, everyone who's tried fitting a vnt to a gtt before has had said aggro in plentiful supply), wouldn't it make more sense to just fit a conventional blower & be done with it?

    The efi setup in itself surely outweighs any disadvantage of a 'slower' spooling conventional turbo being in situ?

  23. #73
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevhib View Post
    Fair play Os. The only thing I'd say is that you're asking for a lot of help from certain members in bottoming this boost/fuelling/VNT issue. I'm sure the guys are more than happy to help and the thread is really interesting for the rest of us. In return for the assitance you're getting however, you'd have thought you'd at least be using Google where possible (i.e. to help you understand physics/mechanics basics), instead of adding the extra load to Andy (or whoever).
    I have tried mate but as I said before I'm no engineer and understanding stuff like that is abit beyond me, yeah I can bolt stuff together no probs but get to the technical stuff and i'm lost, now if it was women I wouldn't have any probs in making scream with pleasure in less than a minute

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    Bob on Brigsy

    If it were that much aggro (and let's be honest, everyone who's tried fitting a vnt to a gtt before has had said aggro in plentiful supply), wouldn't it make more sense to just fit a conventional blower & be done with it?

    The efi setup in itself surely outweighs any disadvantage of a 'slower' spooling conventional turbo being in situ?
    True but just because somit is hard doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, if we did try we'd still be leaving in caves

  24. #74
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Aii, and I'm all for development ideas, but in fairness you've been dicking around for months trying to resolve this, and surely there comes a point where it just ain't gonna happen.

    When I see someone like Andy struggling to get a variable unit working sufficiently good enough, and bearing in mind the application for his car/turbo is hill-climbs, where yours is more road-usage & hence more 'necessary' to set up correctly, I think the caves you mention would be pretty desolate by now...

  25. #75
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    Aii, and I'm all for development ideas, but in fairness you've been dicking around for months trying to resolve this, and surely there comes a point where it just ain't gonna happen.

    When I see someone like Andy struggling to get a variable unit working sufficiently good enough, and bearing in mind the application for his car/turbo is hill-climbs, where yours is more road-usage & hence more 'necessary' to set up correctly, I think the caves you mention would be pretty desolate by now...
    I haven't been dicking around with this for months, I've only had the problems with boost since the last dyno seesion which was on the 24th of november but I've been busy trying to trace this oil leak since then, I have been dicking around with other issues such as the oil leak and slipping clutch but those can happen on any car

  26. #76
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    My bad. I must be getting confused between that and the efi install itself.

    Fair play for seeing it through; it'll be a good conversion when it's all tickity boo

  27. #77
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Mart View Post
    My bad. I must be getting confused between that and the efi install itself.

    Fair play for seeing it through; it'll be a good conversion when it's all tickity boo
    No worries dude

  28. #78
    Moderator, Committee Trevhib's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    I have tried mate but as I said before I'm no engineer and understanding stuff like that is abit beyond me, yeah I can bolt stuff together no probs but get to the technical stuff and i'm lost
    Sigh. You didn't try in this instance and in any case if Wiki can't help you understand it, how is Andy supposed to do any better. More pertinently, if it's beyond you, why are you asking. Forget it I'm out, but good luck with resolving the issues.

  29. #79
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Trevhib View Post
    Sigh. You didn't try in this instance and in any case if Wiki can't help you understand it, how is Andy supposed to do any better. More pertinently, if it's beyond you, why are you asking. Forget it I'm out, but good luck with resolving the issues.
    When I see technical stuff writen down it tends to blur, where as if some explains in simple terms I can sometimes understands whats being said, I am dislexic ya know (can't even spell it lol)

  30. #80
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    cool, well its good that it maps up OK, that would have been my only worry really.

    re your boost control, how did you get on with running the actuator before the throttle ? it can do some wierd stuff at part throttle when you have it conencted to the manifold. there's nothing simpler than going straight to the compressor housing with the pipe.

    if it's still going mad after that then I guess its down to adjustment of the vanes or the actual sizing of turbine ? can you get a too-small a vnt that is un-able to open up enough to keep the boost within limits ? as I say, I know fudge all about vnt, I'm just applying some logic

  31. #81
    Non-member Mudslinger's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    id love to see Alan at AVA's face if i turned up there with a vnt strapped to mine and asked him to map it not cause i doubt his ability to be able to do it more of the case would be why????

    as others have said is it really worth the extra hastle , i can see why andy is spending time trying to get the best out of using a vnt as he will only use the car for hill climbs, but for a road car and the power im guessing your aiming for all it will do for u is light up the front tyres @2k rpm instead of at 4k and probably make your power band shorter ,although i have no idea what size of turbo your using .

    Ive been toying with the idea of going for a bigger turbo but i think for the way i like to drive and the roads i mostly drive on the t25 seems to be ideal and a good compromise ,and sticking with what i set out to have my 5 like a bit of an all rounder not losing track by chasing those magical bhp figures .

    ditch the vnt m8

  32. #82
    North West Area Rep LukeRobbo's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Got a poster of this car on my wall and was great to see it in the flesh at nationals day.Keep up the good work.Great modifications and i like how it looks almost factory with the phase1 front bumper and decals.

  33. #83
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    cool, well its good that it maps up OK, that would have been my only worry really.

    re your boost control, how did you get on with running the actuator before the throttle ? it can do some wierd stuff at part throttle when you have it conencted to the manifold. there's nothing simpler than going straight to the compressor housing with the pipe.

    if it's still going mad after that then I guess its down to adjustment of the vanes or the actual sizing of turbine ? can you get a too-small a vnt that is un-able to open up enough to keep the boost within limits ? as I say, I know fudge all about vnt, I'm just applying some logic
    Yeah I was worried about how the mapping would go, after hearing so many people say ya couldn't have a EFI and a VNT I thought I was pushing my luck but if the only problem I'm having boost control it could be alot worse.
    Annoyingly there's no tap off the compressor housing to connect the actuator hose, so I'm gunna tap it into the first boost pipe after the turbo, hopefully that'll make even a little bit of a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudslinger View Post
    id love to see Alan at AVA's face if i turned up there with a vnt strapped to mine and asked him to map it not cause i doubt his ability to be able to do it more of the case would be why????

    as others have said is it really worth the extra hastle , i can see why andy is spending time trying to get the best out of using a vnt as he will only use the car for hill climbs, but for a road car and the power im guessing your aiming for all it will do for u is light up the front tyres @2k rpm instead of at 4k and probably make your power band shorter ,although i have no idea what size of turbo your using .

    Ive been toying with the idea of going for a bigger turbo but i think for the way i like to drive and the roads i mostly drive on the t25 seems to be ideal and a good compromise ,and sticking with what i set out to have my 5 like a bit of an all rounder not losing track by chasing those magical bhp figures .

    ditch the vnt m8
    Honestly if I did this again with another R5 I wouldn't use a VNT but since I've already started with this 1 I intend to see it through, yeah life would be alot simpler with a T25 but I like to at least try get stuff working

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeRobbo View Post
    Got a poster of this car on my wall and was great to see it in the flesh at nationals day.Keep up the good work.Great modifications and i like how it looks almost factory with the phase1 front bumper and decals.
    Cheers bud, never thought my car would be a pin up lol, when it went for paint the 1 thing I said was "I went to keep it factory looking but with a modern twist"

  34. #84
    Non-member Adam L's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Oli, if you want a proper threaded insert for the compressor housing, i'll send you one. If there isn't a blanking plug you'll need to tap and drill the comp housing though, which is nearly impossible to **** up.

  35. #85
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam L View Post
    Oli, if you want a proper threaded insert for the compressor housing, i'll send you one. If there isn't a blanking plug you'll need to tap and drill the comp housing though, which is nearly impossible to **** up.
    I'll be able to f**k that up

    thats ok mate, I've got naff all time at the mo anyway

  36. #86
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    I do love it when I'm proved right, when my 5 was in carrera gettin paint I had a 200sx as winter beater, when I sold it, it was a non runner so I took a few bits off before hand 1 of them being the turbo and it has a take off in the compressor housing, now if I'd listerned to me old dear I woulda got rid of that months, glad I didn't now.

    After 20mins in a soaking wet, muddy scrap yard I have a throttle body I think will help, the 1 I originally used was off a Mitsibushi Starion and it was 55mm internal dia, now I have a 40mm internal dia job off a ford fiesta, all it needs is a hole blanking, an old bracket removed and my TPS sensor fitted and calibrated, I'll you guys know how I get on.

  37. #87
    Non-member Brigsy's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    I don't see the point in fitting a smaller throttle body if your wanting power. Might aswell go back to the old 25mm carb eh..

  38. #88
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    just chuck the carb back on... worked ok for stu clarke

  39. #89
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigsy View Post
    I don't see the point in fitting a smaller throttle body if your wanting power. Might aswell go back to the old 25mm carb eh..
    The standard is 25mm, I fitted a 55mm for the conversion, now dropping down to a 40mm, should still give a power increase over the carb and far better mpg

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    just chuck the carb back on... worked ok for stu clarke
    Shut it Butterworth

  40. #90
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    ....you know i'd have your setup, just for the noise on the limiter! lol

  41. #91
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    ....you know i'd have your setup, just for the noise on the limiter! lol
    If ya out 2nite mate I'll take you out in it again, now the rev limiter is up you believe what its like, when it hits the limiter at 5500rpm it pops even bigger flames

  42. #92
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    your on

  43. #93
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    New poster! (less than 10 posts)

    throttle size has nothing to do with fuel ecconomy ?? it also won't make any difference to your boost control problem unless you go so small that it becomes a choke. the only advantage of a smaller throttle will be that its responce will be a little more progressive, it won't be quite so sensitive as I bet it is now at 55mm.

  44. #94
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    New poster! (less than 10 posts)

    throttle size has nothing to do with fuel ecconomy ?? it also won't make any difference to your boost control problem unless you go so small that it becomes a choke. the only advantage of a smaller throttle will be that its responce will be a little more progressive, it won't be quite so sensitive as I bet it is now at 55mm.
    I was never sure having the 55mm was a good idea at the start of the conversion, and yes your right Scoff, the slightest throttle launches me down the road with smoke poaring off the tyres or I stall it and look a cock

  45. #95
    Non-member Adey aka Ewok's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    id say the going down the road with smoke pouring off makes you look like more of a cock than stalling it

  46. #96
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Adey aka Ewok View Post
    id say the going down the road with smoke pouring off makes you look like more of a cock than stalling it
    Yep I'll give u that

  47. #97
    Non-member Penfold aka The Dealer's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    I was never sure having the 55mm was a good idea at the start of the conversion, and yes your right Scoff, the slightest throttle launches me down the road with smoke poaring off the tyres or I stall it and look a cock
    TBH We all think you look like a cock all the time

  48. #98
    Non-member Adey aka Ewok's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Penfold View Post
    TBH We all think you look like a cock all the time


  49. #99
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Penfold View Post
    TBH We all think you look like a cock all the time
    I can't help it if I'm so well blesed that all you see is my cock

  50. #100
    Non-member Adey aka Ewok's Avatar
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    Re: Turbo Toaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    I can't help it if I'm so well blesed that all you see is my cock
    no he out right called you a cock, didnt mention seeing your weener

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