Views on what you would want from an Audi TFSI powered R5 or Clio 172/182

[Duncan Grier]

Ok,

So I have thought about it for some time and after extensive work with the TFSI lump in the VX220's which I do and really are epic good. After a few texts early this morning with a friend promting this thought I would get some feedback on your views

It's such a great engine and with uprated HPFP intake / exhaust and plugs makes 373bhp & 405ft/lb torque in the VX (925kg with full tank of fuel) with the linear pedal map giving 1:1 pedal / tb ration your nan could drive it its that smooth and nice to drive (well until you ask for it ) returned 51mpg on a 70ishmph trip to Durham and back and few blasts which is derv mpg

So I can make it fit in the R5 or a Clio thats just fabrication and lots of measuring before I cad draw stuff up

Now I think the epic classic 5 or the classic in its own right been the 172 / 182 would make a great chassis for the engine box combo. From a handling point of view the clio is going to be a better chassis

Out the box there are 2 options been the gti k03 spec tfsi combo with 6 speed box or the full fat k04 S3/K1 Cupra/Edition 30 lump. Keeing the power under 350bhp means it works out a chunk cheaper without fancy clutch, HPFP and few other things

What would people want - big power? cheaper lesser powered option? stealth oem looks and low noise / fire spitting vagness

I am keen to look and possible do a limited run but clearly no point if there is no market for it. I retain the oem features of the car in terms of dash diag port for airbag etc etc. think its a nicer solution and makes the total oem option other than its makes a german engine noise lol

Anyway braindump away guys nothing set in stone - my view is mega linear power delivery (helps woth traction also) reliable power increase, better mpg and been different - not having to open engine or box for near on 400bhp suits me rather than expensive engine parts and build time

DG

[rabbitstew]

This is what I plan to do with my renault 5 when my c1j engine gives up the ghost. For me, rather than fork out a small fortune on rebuilding my old engine, it makes more sense to just drop a vag engine in. I think most people would be happy with 350bhp.

[5teve L]

What are the costs, I would think it comes down to that, a 172/182 turbo conversion is easily done without any real fab work (if you use the clio) & parts are coming down in price.
Don't get me wrong, the VAG is the better engine & box, but could the cost far outweigh the benefits ?

[Duncan Grier]

It is a VERY valid point and I know the costs for a VX220 conversion but FWD / front engineed and staying below 350bhp saves a LOT of thousands and less work

Of course there are bits off the shelf also that do the job in terms off 225 / turbo 182 etc etc

It is better but the extra cost is of course a deciding factor for most

I absolutly need to look at what can be stripped back and or reused to make it as cost effective as possible. A full fat VX charge cooler id £1698 I have no doubt a decent I/C would be a 1/4 of that. Your also not going to get the same traction and clutch costs can be removed all together

It may not be a goer and hence getting a feel for what people would actually want

My views of what the ultimate configuration and desired results are just that mine :P

Keep the feedback coming guys there are no bad views - I know its not a French lump and not to everyones tastes

DG

[Benjibrady]

I think as said before Duncan it ultimately comes down to cost.

If people are doing engine conversions then obviously keeping anything original is no longer a concern so I'm not sure the nationality of the engine would mater???

Those numbers are also obtainable from the f7r blocks. I fully understand the benefits of the vag set up, but if you were looking at the difference between a £6-7k build and a 10k build would the cost outweigh the benefit?

If it was reliable and as easy to drive as you mention, that could almost make that set up suitable for a daily, I've never owned a car which returns anything more than about 40mpg so those numbers are mighty impressive.

[Slammed 66]

*If* I was in the market for a conversion of this type, I'd be looking for something that could be used on a daily basis and drive just as well as the donor that provided it's engine.

Having worked for the VAG group, I know how nice the TFSI engines are and they're quick as standard. For me I'd be looking for 300-350 horses which is more than enough and still reliable I believe.

However, from what I've seen, us 5 and clio owners don't like spending HUGE amounts on anything. If this was a £6k conversion (as I suspect it will be, if not more) then I wouldn't bother and I suppose the people who would bother would be the people who want ridiculously fast quarter mile times and for who, 350 wouldn't be sufficient.

It's a great idea and one that I'd love to see come to fruition.

Keep us updated

Ross

[Duncan Grier]

Thanks for the further feedback guys - appricaited

Yeah the rebuild option with Garrett setup exists in the VX world also but you are still having to take an engine apart and spend good money on parts for it to hold together I have built these and certainly work but more engine builds seem to fail early than I would be happy with

The joy of the TFSI is 373bhp on software, intake, exhaust, fueling and plenty of S3 4wd versions dragging all that weight around without issues

400 mark is possible on the k04 but with bigger turbo and head bolts 600bhp possible if power is he goal

Also the TFSI been direct fuel injected and higher compression gives such better response and also lot beter mpg - big turbo setups certainly impress on boost and the way I setup the VX220 conversion its almost S/C delivery and makes it just feel like a massive V8 with loads of low down torque and top end go back in timeness

Will continue to look at cost aspects to see if viable for the masses

DG

[Woznaldo]

I'm Aus based so my opinion doesn't really count as the prices are all out of whack, but if I was still in the UK. I'd want a conversion done for GBP4000 to make it worth my while. Nice though the TFSI engine is, surely the older 20v BAM VAG engines are just as good on the power front? Sure they may not get the MPG, but it won't be far off?

Parts required:

VAG Engine
VAG G/Box (cable shift)
Engine Loom
FMIC and pipes
EFI Fuel Pump
Radiator and pipes
VAG ECU and reflash or stand alone ECU
Driveshaft conversion
Engine/Gbox Mounts

You can pick up a VAG 20v Engine and Box for GBP1500? That leaves GBP2500 for rest. Probably doable if you do the work yourself?

The only thing I don't like about the VAG or F7R/F4R engines is the iron block and the weight. I'd prefer something like a B16A Honda with a cheeky turbo, but tuning parts for them can get expensive.

Food for thought.....

Woz

[rabbitstew]

If it was reliable and as easy to drive as you mention, that could almost make that set up suitable for a daily, I've never owned a car which returns anything more than about 40mpg so those numbers are mighty impressive.

Thats a good point. But then if you are talking about £6k for the engine swap plus the cost of the actual car, you have to start thinking, I can buy a very nice alternative daily car for that sort of money.

My current daily is a BMW 123d coupe, which as standard does 0-60 in 6.something and gives me 50mpg from its 204bhp. A simple remap can take it up to 270bhp and something like 300ftlb torque which apparently gives staggering performance and still keeps 50mpg.

So for me, id be looking at using the Renault 5 as just a weekend toy so mpg and reliability/practicality of the engine isnt such a worry. Although if an engine conversion was going to cost ridiculous money then it just wouldnt be worth it for a car which would only be used a occasionally. With some of the clio engines being up for sale for a few hundred quid and a bit of DIY that would make that a more attractive option cost wise.

[Woznaldo]

To be honest, I can't really see a market for it in the GT Turbo world. The ClioII/III owners might well take up on it, but even then it won't be big numbers as a whole conversion.

I think something that would sell well is an enabling package or packages:

OPTION 1
Mounts
Driveshafts
Loom
ECU with safe map
Radiator
FMIC
Pipes and Hoses

OPTION 2
Mounts
Driveshafts
Loom
ECU with safe map

OPTION 3
Mounts
Driveshafts
Loom to suit X ECU

Give people the option to buy in stages. Mounts this month, Driveshafts next as this will make it more bearable on the wallet and more appealing as there isn't the initial shock of GBP6000 or whatever figure.

These guys have done something similar, but VAG to VAG (sounds a bit scissors sisters?) so no real Driveshaft or Mount issues.

http://www.qpeng.com/component/optio...id,8/vmcchk,1/

You get the idea though.

Woz

[B18ftMOJO5]

Has anyone done a bike engine in a 5? like a hayabusa turbo or something equally mental?

[Woznaldo]

Has anyone done a bike engine in a 5? like a hayabusa turbo or something equally mental?

Possibly, but I haven't seen one. You can install them for FWD configuration as there is a company that does just that for Classic Minis. Would be cool.

http://www.lynxae.co.uk/Products-MiniR1.htm

http://www.pro-motive.co.uk/index.php?page=r1-kit

There was another company that made a billet FWD gearbox for bike engined Mini, but it was an expensive way to do it. Above is better and lends itself to universal fitment.

The billet one was called MINIeXvo.

[Goobie]

There is a bike powered 5 on YouTube, did toy with the idea of building a twin bike engine 4x4 five before I went the route I'm doing now. Twin R1 engine, turbos thrown on with crazy rpm limit add the fact that there light weight engines and car that will certainly will put a smile on your face.

[robw]

Renault 5 w/ Suzuki GSX-R 1000 K1 engine on the t…: http://youtu.be/FwYSc2qaTtU
Bit rubbish imo