Bit of car advice needed (legal)

[LiamR]

A spot of good advice would be much needed please gents

I bought a Honda civic type r from a trader. I have got the car home, done minimal miles(150) in it and the clutch has gone. I booked it in at a dealers and it turns out the flywheel is ruined and that the 2nd and 3rd gear synchromesh is knackered.

I have spoke to the trader I bought the car from and he is refusing to help out what so ever. He says a clutch is only £300 so to just pay for it myself and he refuses to acknowledge that anything else is wrong with the car. (The clutch alone is £650 plus a flywheel of £550 without starting on the synchromesh)

Where do I stand here???

The trader is saying he doesn't want to hear from me again as its my problem!!!

Do I have a case to take him to a small claims court? Has anyone had experience of this?

Any other ideas to what I can do?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Slammed 66]

Can't comment from a legal point of view but surely you've got a case? As far as I'm aware 'sold as seen' doesn't cut it anymore. Especially from a garage.

Good luck with it Liam

[Mr Raider]

Did you get any kind of warranty or was it stated sold as seen and approved on receipt?

Thats rough mate after 150 miles, he's not trying to claim you ragged it and thats why the clutch went?

[LiamR]

Can't comment from a legal point of view but surely you've got a case? As far as I'm aware 'sold as seen' doesn't cut it anymore. Especially from a garage.

Good luck with it Liam

I am sure I have a case. But I'd like a few opinions. So yours is appreciated.

As you say, sold as seen doesn't cut it anymore. ESP from a garage.

[LiamR]

Did you get any kind of warranty or was it stated sold as seen and approved on receipt?

Thats rough mate after 150 miles, he's not trying to claim you ragged it and thats why the clutch went?

He is trying to say we have ragged it yes. Which is funny considering my missus has done the majority of the driving in it. And she drives really slowly!!

I bought it from a trader so I have more rights. It doesn't say sold as seen on the receipt.

[stu21t]

A mate of mine had similar problems with an a4 he bought.
He took it back for a full refund about 4 months after having it.
They have to give you a 6 month warranty when you buy from a trader.

I can't tell you the legal proceedings but you can either get him to pay for the repairs or take it back.

I can ask my mate for you if it helps?

[JP Racing]

You are perfectly in the right to take it back and get a full refund

From the aa web site

Sale of Goods Act
Buying a new or used car from a car dealer comes under the scope of the Sale of Goods Act which states that any item you buy from a Trader must be:

Of satisfactory quality
Fit for purpose, and
As described
The dealer must have the right to sell the vehicle and is legally obliged to sort out the problem if it fails to meet these basic requirements.

Satisfactory quality means that the vehicle should be of a standard a reasonable person would expect, taking into account factors such as: age, value, history, mileage, make, durability, safety and description.* An old car with high mileage would not be expected to be as good as a younger car with low mileage but each should still be roadworthy, reliable, and in a condition consistent with its age/price.

The dealer is liable for faults with the vehicle - that mean it was not of satisfactory quality - that were present at the time it was sold even though they may only become apparent later on.

The dealer is not liable for fair wear and tear, where the vehicle broke down or the fault emerged through normal use, nor are they liable if they drew your attention to the full extent of any fault or defect before you bought the car.*

Fit for purpose means that you must be able to use the vehicle for the purposes that you would normally expect from a vehicle including any particular purpose that you tell the dealer about before you buy, or which the dealer has advertised or gleaned from your conversation.* This would include towing or short journey use.

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations
Dealers must also comply with the requirements of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations (2008), which prohibit them from engaging in unfair business practices across five main categories:

Giving false information either verbally, visually or in writing, for example misrepresenting the vehicle's specification or history at any time before, during or after the transaction.
Giving insufficient information - leaving out or hiding important information for example not disclosing the existence and results of all checks carried out on the vehicle's mechanical condition, history and mileage or failing to draw your attention to the key elements of any warranty e.g. what's covered, claim limits and conditions to be followed.
Acting aggressively for example using high pressure selling techniques to sell a vehicle or associated finance or warranty.
Failing to act in accordance with reasonable expectations of what's acceptable
Banning outright of 31 specific practices including: falsely claiming to be a signatory to a Code of Practice; falsely claiming to be approved, endorsed or authorised by a public or private body; falsely stating that a vehicle will only be available for a very limited time in order to elicit an immediate decision to buy.
Consumer remedies
If a vehicle turns out not to be of satisfactory quality then the remedy will depend on the time that has passed and the nature of the fault - it's best to seek legal advice or visit http://www.adviceguide.org.uk

Read OFT guidance for second hand car dealers »

Don't get caught out
Ask the right questions and get any agreements in writing.

What mechanical, mileage or history checks has the dealer carried out?
How many and what type of owner has the car had?
Has it been modified or involved in an accident and repaired?
Is the dealer signed up to a Code of Practice?* What's their customer complaints procedure?

[JP Racing]

This bit in general is what i would use


The dealer is liable for faults with the vehicle - that mean it was not of satisfactory quality - that were present at the time it was sold even though they may only become apparent later on.

If he says you have driven it hard i would say its a sports car designed to be driven hard other wise i would have brought a slow diesel family car not a honda type r

[LiamR]

A mate of mine had similar problems with an a4 he bought.
He took it back for a full refund about 4 months after having it.
They have to give you a 6 month warranty when you buy from a trader.

I can't tell you the legal proceedings but you can either get him to pay for the repairs or take it back.

I can ask my mate for you if it helps?

If you could ask your mate, that would be great thanks

[LiamR]

This bit in general is what i would use


The dealer is liable for faults with the vehicle - that mean it was not of satisfactory quality - that were present at the time it was sold even though they may only become apparent later on.

If he says you have driven it hard i would say its a sports car designed to be driven hard other wise i would have brought a slow diesel family car not a honda type r

Both of your posts are great advice. Thanks.

I'd love to just take it back and get a refund but its in the Honda dealers in bits now. I have just dropped off a lightened flywheel that I sourced locally for £275 which is better than Hondas £600!! I am going to ring him, quote the above. If he still doesn't budge, is it the small claims court that will deal with this sort of thing?

[Goobie]

Rotten luck, car dealers do whatever they can to get away with not having to pay out. I've had a car that was only two years old and still the dealership did whatever they could to get out of trying to fix a gearbox fault that in the end got told its just the way they are after taking it in four times over three months with same fault. Gave up and just traded it in in the end as fed up with the hassle.

Clutch wise, if you hadn't already taking it to honda, various specialist do uprated (not that you need it.) packages with flywheel for just over £600 fitted.

[Alistair Gresty]

Dont spend a penny on it, you have to give him an opportunity to identify the problem & fix himself. You cant have it fixed by a third party & expect the dealer to pick up the bill. He will claim that there was no problem! Also how long have you had it? You can reject a car within a certain time frame (not sure how long that is though)

Google trading standards & give there helpline a ring.

[Fordy]

Clutch's are wear and tear items, you wont get anywhere with any warranty trust me.

In there eyes, 150miles is more than enough to ruin a clutch and syncro's with bad driving and then blame them for it. The trader wont move and nor will you and it'll just drag on for ages and nothing ever come of it.
Trading standard will listen to professional opinions and every professional opinion will be the same as above sadly.

I work in the trade in a main dealer and even under 3 year warranty and with say 30,000miles you will never get a worn out slipping clutch under warranty. You will however get a stiff pressure plate or flywheel vibration/noise covered.

Aswell you shouldn't of had it investigated/ripped apart without the traders authorisation as he might of wanted to fix it himself for less and so he knows what state it is in.

lessons to learnt the hard way i'm afraid.

[R5MJH]

a similiar case like this was on watchdog a little while ago to cut a long story very short the guy ended up taking them to court after lots of back and forth and in the end won, but what a faff, i agree with fordy unfortunately you probably wont get far quick and the trader will try all the loops possibly to try and get out of paying regardless of whether hes sold a dodgy car or not

[5teve L]

I doubt you'll get anywhere either with drivetrain issues they are always easy to get out of. I also think if you have taken it apart, either yourself or another garage without the dealers consent then whatever warrenty you may of had is now void.

[Ian S]

A pal started legal proceedings. The Ford main dealer then became very helpful and acquiesced.

They fobbed him off repeatedly, lied, obstructed, they damaged his engine whilst it was there for other work and denied it, it was a fiasco. They also lied, etc, about a faulty front wheel hub, he changed parts there several times including, IIRC, the hub for another new faulty hub, before he and I got the centre of it, rust on one half of the hub revealed it was distorted and the brake disc did not sit flat and even. He eventually got a replacement engine and the other parts as well. It probably helped with the litigation that his brother was a lawyer.

The garage knew they had no case so gave in immediately.

It's easier to say than to make a case and go to the court, but it's £25 or something to start it.

[LiamR]

I have taken a while to sort this as I have been on holiday etc but I have a small amount of progress. Thought I'd update just in case anyone cares

I spoke to the dealer, he eventually sent me £300 even though it cost me closer to 1k to fix. Surely this is admission of guilt?

I told him that I wasn't happy with £300 and he told me tough. So I have today filled out the forms online and paid £60 to the small claims court to hopefully get my money returned.

Also, Honda have said that the fundamental fault was the knackered flywheel. This had ruined the clutch plate prematurely. They have given me documentation to back this up also. So the fault was there before I bought the car and the flywheel is not considered a consumable.

Lets see what happens as he has 14 days to respond.

Thanks also for everyone's input above. It is appreciated.

[TopCat]

I have taken a while to sort this as I have been on holiday etc but I have a small amount of progress. Thought I'd update just in case anyone cares

I spoke to the dealer, he eventually sent me £300 even though it cost me closer to 1k to fix. Surely this is admission of guilt?

I told him that I wasn't happy with £300 and he told me tough. So I have today filled out the forms online and paid £60 to the small claims court to hopefully get my money returned.

Also, Honda have said that the fundamental fault was the knackered flywheel. This had ruined the clutch plate prematurely. They have given me documentation to back this up also. So the fault was there before I bought the car and the flywheel is not considered a consumable.

Lets see what happens as he has 14 days to respond.

Thanks also for everyone's input above. It is appreciated.

Name and shame the trader mate. Go public ie local papers etc. if you have written documentation from Honda as proof that the car was not fit for purpose, then it's completely on him. As a trader you have a duty of care, hence why buying from trade is a safer option than buying privately.

I think it's an absolute joke that he thinks he can get away with it.

With regards to small claims, it's a great way to go, if he contests it then it'll go yo court, and when the judge sees the documented proof from Honda then he'll not only have to pay you your costs, but he'll also have to pay damages too. Once that's done and you have a written judgement I'd go public to your local paper and ell them all about your terrible experience.

Unfortunately we live in a world of people who have absolutely zero ethics.

Good luck mate, I hope it all works out.

[Mr Raider]

I have taken a while to sort this as I have been on holiday etc but I have a small amount of progress. Thought I'd update just in case anyone cares

I spoke to the dealer, he eventually sent me £300 even though it cost me closer to 1k to fix. Surely this is admission of guilt?

I told him that I wasn't happy with £300 and he told me tough. So I have today filled out the forms online and paid £60 to the small claims court to hopefully get my money returned.

Also, Honda have said that the fundamental fault was the knackered flywheel. This had ruined the clutch plate prematurely. They have given me documentation to back this up also. So the fault was there before I bought the car and the flywheel is not considered a consumable.

Lets see what happens as he has 14 days to respond.

Thanks also for everyone's input above. It is appreciated.

Good on ya for following this up, the old adage 'you dont ask you dont get' is spot on. Hope it all gets sorted soon, good luck

[Trevhib]

Well done for taking this on. Let us know how you get on

[LiamR]

Thanks for the advice and support guys hopefully he gets the small claims letter, bricks himself and pays up.

I'll come back with some news in the future. As mentioned, it's crazy that dealers think they can bend you over and get away with it!