No mention of injectors or turbo back in post? No doubting, just querying!Originally Posted by SP33DY
No mention of injectors or turbo back in post? No doubting, just querying!
It's the Green writing on the actual graph.
250 engine with different pistons than that r26 engine. Sarcastic so and soI thought the internals were identical though? (to the R26). Speedy confirmed that on a previous page, no?
Get that torque wound up you geeza
I have ascertained that the pistons are different ...
Get that torque wound up you geeza
Have you seen his history with cars? Here it is.
Get that torque wound up you geeza
Buys car
[Bad things happen]
Large expense and emotional trauma
Repeat ad-infinitum.
If Bond rolls the rod-dice he'll end up with a 6-6-6
I thought we were discussing rod failures...
I thought Ricardo was asking about the engine dynamics conversion
We were.
But ,
The 250 runs lower comp than the r26.
The 250 appears not to fail until well over 370ib ft
The r26 at just over 300ib ft
I darent risk it.
Well , I dare , but I darent risk the wrath of the wife when I tell her I need to forge the engine , buy a new manifold , new head , big turbo and fuel system to run 450 bhp.
Minor detail.I thought Ricardo was asking about the engine dynamics conversion
Its reading around the subject on the theoretic limits of a f4r ..
I thought Ricardo was asking about the engine dynamics conversion
Its making for a good read, and refreshing to read up on technical info which will might be useful sooner or later
So with the 182 F4R high boost sub 300 Tutuur is saying use the Megane pistons but having to do away with the VVT, why is this? I know he says the pistons are different but i dont know the reason what effect it then have when using the Meg ones with VVT installed still.
Why not just use the laguna pistons ? Cheaper again ...
Its making for a good read, and refreshing to read up on technical info which will might be useful sooner or later
So with the 182 F4R high boost sub 300 Tutuur is saying use the Megane pistons but having to do away with the VVT, why is this? I know he says the pistons are different but i dont know the reason what effect it then have when using the Meg ones with VVT installed still.
I see nobody has mentioned the price of a decent clutch for the meg when the power is increased £££
And?
Keep up Mart, we've been there already in this threadAnd?
A lower compression ratio drops peak cylinder pressure. That might have some bearing on rod failure (no pun intended). Or maybe not that much.
The Megane pistons don't have enough of a valve pocket to clear the cams in the retard position.
Its making for a good read, and refreshing to read up on technical info which will might be useful sooner or later
So with the 182 F4R high boost sub 300 Tutuur is saying use the Megane pistons but having to do away with the VVT, why is this? I know he says the pistons are different but i dont know the reason what effect it then have when using the Meg ones with VVT installed still.
I can mention it. Mine is getting done.I see nobody has mentioned the price of a decent clutch for the meg when the power is increased £££
£1280+vat.
Owch.
Do the 250s ? They have pockets.
Keep up Mart, we've been there already in this thread
A lower compression ratio drops peak cylinder pressure. That might have some bearing on rod failure (no pun intended). Or maybe not that much.
Paul has confirmed that the low end high torque kills the engines. He lost an engine that was 3000mi old running at 360ibft
I am looking into fitting a 250/265 hybrid turbo with injectors so I can avoid the hassle of getting a new manifold to fit a 3071 ?
Anyone after a standard meg turbo ?
Last edited by andybond; 07-01-2014 at 16:39.
Can I take the complete dephaser unit off the 182 cam and replace it with a vernier pulley? Thinking Megane pistons and being different to F4R maybe I could fit vernier pulleys instead. Can this be done? I know Pure Motorsport sell the Piper verniers.
yeah why wouldn't it fit? only have to block of the oil port which powers the dephaser iirc
could also just fit 225 pulleys if timing is the same, or maybe they'll give better timing for boost. everything is possible :P
I don't know why that's why I'm asking
Was thinking vernier pulleys to adjust any timing differences/issues but if the 225s timing is the same (who knows?) then it could be an option.
I spoke to Matt earlier and discussed pistons, I don't like the idea of using forged pistons and IMO would rather use Megane for the reason that it's an everyday car but would still like to go high boost ( The ED 280bhp option)
I need to call Engine Dynamics to discuss
I will have a spare set of 225 pistons and rods soon
The inlet cam has more offset than the exhaust, so you can't fit verniers from a non-VVT engine.
You can cheat like I did and machine a few mm out the back of an exhaust pulley and use that on the inlet, then if you make yourself a variable cam locking tool you can time them however you like.
There are some VVT verniers in the pipeline, Andy G at Clioturbo sent me some pictures of ones indevelopment recently.
You need to fit an exhaust cam seal too. And block the 3x holes in the end of the inlet cam and the hole down the center of the main bolt.
We need to be a little bit carefull here mate because the mapping takes in to account a lower compression ratio from forged pistons.I don't know why that's why I'm asking
Was thinking vernier pulleys to adjust any timing differences/issues but if the 225s timing is the same (who knows?) then it could be an option.
I spoke to Matt earlier and discussed pistons, I don't like the idea of using forged pistons and IMO would rather use Megane for the reason that it's an everyday car but would still like to go high boost ( The ED 280bhp option)
I need to call Engine Dynamics to discuss
My honest advice is to use a standalone for best results, or see Paul about remapping the stock ECU if your keeping an eye on the budget. ED will be happy to sell you the kit without the ECU, that should knock a chunk off which can go toward one or other of the above options
As long as its remembered that your rods will be in for a hiding if using a small turbo , and lots of torque.We need to be a little bit carefull here mate because the mapping takes in to account a lower compression ratio from forged pistons.
My honest advice is to use a standalone for best results, or see Paul about remapping the stock ECU if your keeping an eye on the budget. ED will be happy to sell you the kit without the ECU, that should knock a chunk off which can go toward one or other of the above options
Bloody hell Andy
What are you actually getting for that price?
A gold clutch.Bloody hell Andy
What are you actually getting for that price?
I hope.
No seriously ..
single mass flywheel
uprated clutch cover plate
clutch
slave cylinder
fitting.
Its the helix kit. Its the only really uprated kit there is for the meg. I could go down the r26r route and get 20% more clamping force , but I am already running > 20% torque than a standard r26. I hope to be running more.
A standard DMF / clutch / etc from renault is more than the helix kit , and even other vendors still charge around £600 for parts plus fitting.
I can justify it if I look at it like that.
Its the story of most modern cars. Buying is the cheap bit , running and replacing parts is the expensive bit !
( sorry Ricardo )
Andy, seriously it's making great reading and conversation about the F4R varieties... Anyway, a big development has happened
you've bought a diesel????
It's a good thread. I'm on stripping my engine as we speak, head work, cams, forged internals and hopefully some decent results!
Which engine Matt? Getting old so I forget!
It's a good thread. I'm on stripping my engine as we speak, head work, cams, forged internals and hopefully some decent results!
Your avatar would suggest a blown f4r ?
It's a 225 f4rt Andy. The same lump I've had since 2007!it's going through a few changes and I'm hoping to have it alive for june.
I have been reading how a chap who ran cams on his f4r , small turbo , forged everything and only ran 315hp and 335ftib.
In a nutshell cams were overspecced ( duration all wrong ) and couldnt generate enough boost with the turbo.
A GTX3071 should cure it.
Just trying to say be careful with which turbo you partner it with. I dont know how much you know ( if you get my drift ) so maybe speak to Scoff or Paul.
You changing the box ? o2m seems to be the preferential box.
Andy,
Not sure if you remember this thread:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=2310
Im using a borg warner and cams timed to suit. Not sure what to yet as I might also invest in some adjustable pulleys.
I dont remember what I had for tea last night , apologies.
Ill have a good read over the weekend. Thanks for taking the time to post me a link
I hear them Borg Warner's can rip limbs from babies?!?
Noooooooooooooo
Poor little bugger........😛
Crumbs. Thats a fairly meaty turbo there !
I cant get too much in the way of turbo mods without going down a new manifold route. Thats gets expensive fast.
Heard that Paul is offering a turbo with some larger wheels that are from a meg 250. Already run 360hp / 370ibft on a 250. Should be good for 350 ish with injectors on the meg. Bonus is a direct fit.
Snag is the price ..
I will be updating my thread shortly with progress (which there has been some
On the f4rt tuning, main issues are the typical turbo type manufacturers mild cams and the smaller head ports. I was in two minds on wether to swap the head for a 182 or even 197,but me being me I've decided to see what can be done on improving the 225 head. I will be sending the head and inlet to Amac engineering in northallerton. It's an old school outfit and all head work is mainly done by hand and experience.
If you do I'd set them so that 0,0 equates to 110, 110. You'd need to set them with the Renault tool at something other than 0,0 to make that work, we can try and work that out when you get them
[QUOTE=Andrew Cooke;361248]If you do I'd set them so that 0,0 equates to 110, 110. You'd need to set them with the Renault tool at something other than 0,0 to make that work, we can try and work that out when you get them
Thanks Andy. Yeah as we discussed a while back looks like I will need to modify the timing tools to set the cams initially to ? And then use adjustable pulleys. Thing is I'm not in a financially position to buy a set of cat cams. I was considering using cosworth pulleys as the diameter and number of teeth are similar and are readily available cheaply. I will no doubt be camped firmily in your messages inbox when I'm ready to put it all together.
Any other alternatives on cheap cam pulleys?
[quote=Matt Cole;361257]no idea on the pulleys.If you do I'd set them so that 0,0 equates to 110, 110. You'd need to set them with the Renault tool at something other than 0,0 to make that work, we can try and work that out when you get them
Thanks Andy. Yeah as we discussed a while back looks like I will need to modify the timing tools to set the cams initially to ? And then use adjustable pulleys. Thing is I'm not in a financially position to buy a set of cat cams. I was considering using cosworth pulleys as the diameter and number of teeth are similar and are readily available cheaply. I will no doubt be camped firmily in your messages inbox when I'm ready to put it all together.
Any other alternatives on cheap cam pulleys?
No need to do anything funky with the tool. Say the standard cam is timed 116, set the pulley to 6 deg and fit it, then when you adjust to 0deg you'll be at 110. But, with the advance, retard, +/-, cam, and crank degrees there are many more ways to screw it up than get it right
Don't swap for a 182 head. It has the same volume as a 172/182/f4r. 197 or 200 head only.I will be updating my thread shortly with progress (which there has been some
On the f4rt tuning, main issues are the typical turbo type manufacturers mild cams and the smaller head ports. I was in two minds on wether to swap the head for a 182 or even 197,but me being me I've decided to see what can be done on improving the 225 head. I will be sending the head and inlet to Amac engineering in northallerton. It's an old school outfit and all head work is mainly done by hand and experience.
There is work that can be done on the head. An aquatintence spent heavily on the head to gain 50bhp
The phase 1 cylinder head from the 172 has bigger ports
Pulleys
http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/details.php?itemid=166
Cheers Ricardo. Yes your right the ph 1 has bigger ports. I got Ashy to measure his when he was building the engine up.
The pipers are slightly cheaper than the cat cams ones. I like the idea if the dowel to. It's the £230 that doesnt agree with me although I may have to bite the bullet!
I was tempted to fit a phase 1 head to the 182, then have the inlet manifold ports enlarged to match
The reason I suggested the 197/200 head is because it can flow more than the 172/182 head and crucially it will lower the compression for Matt.
I have no idea how CR affects as supercharger though!
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