Ah the silly little (light blue) wrapped bend hoses? I've got some somewhere, but weren't there any on my engine from MVS? Can't you use one of those?
PS. not tried weed in ass but apparently works
Ah the silly little (light blue) wrapped bend hoses? I've got some somewhere, but weren't there any on my engine from MVS? Can't you use one of those?
PS. not tried weed in ass but apparently works
Can't find them .No suprise there .
ah might still be on the heads then, think I've got the heads haven't I? I've got no idea where they are though, not sure how I could lose them though?! Yikees...
I can see where you're going with this, and on the level of balancing the wastegates it makes sense, however, I'm not sure that advantage is worth more than the cross polution between banks and increased manifold volume. I think I'd be tapping the manifolds for EBP and balancing the wastegates that way.Originally Posted by MFaulks
The route to go will be block the internal waste gates, have a Y cross-over pipe between the headers and an external waste gate atmo vent
EBP ?
? back pressure ?
yep, exhaust, TIP - turbine inlet pressure, call it what you will
Andy yes this is a good point, I was trying to balance cost, complexity - keep it simple to fabricate / bodge from existing hardware and easy of build. But all is in the hot pot of ideas for this at the moment as a way off. Good point, and if can balance the waste gates then probably go for it.
Lee, have you had chance to fit the headers to the heads yet, did they go back with some pushing and pulling to the right place? Let me know on the replacement rocker spacers sizes as you know, thanks. Need to think about injectors as well, forgot about that. Think you've got loads to do now mate ;-)
Not had chance to do much ...kids on half term ...some proper work has come in ,breaker bits to pull off and flog ,help out Dawn with partybag stuff and RATS is being developed .
Work in progress but the bones are there
www.renaultalpinetuningservices.co.uk
How did you get on yesterday matey ?
Scoffski mentioned that upping the line pressure to the injectors cured the same issue I was having on Steve Yorks T2 .
I need to talk to Mr Smith about some BIG Aussie sourced he has for his 610 lumped GTA or some with the 4 jet pattern you were on about ????
Looks good Lee, and when you have it filled out with more packages etc it will pull together nicely as an integrated solution provider
Yesterday, miffed at myself, 4th interview on the day I didn't cut it, and it was the most important. The others before it had gone well especially the first one with the Snr Eng Dir, but don't think on balance that's going to be enough.
Not really hopefull now :-(
Well, we ran out of injector pretty quickly on Steve's T2, transpired there was only 20psi in the rail, a quick adjustment and some transposition of the map solved the problem. It won't take much extra rail pressure if only a few more psi of boost are required. I forget if your GTA has an adjustable regulator or not Lee ? if not, sometimes you can bash the top of the fixed type in with a socket and hammer to raise the diaphrams preload a bit. Fuel pressure gauge essential
eeeeet it wiz ze ammer
Tuning GOD
Scoof, we need to fuel it for about 350 hp, which is probably where this thing is going to top out, do need better temp control of the inlet charge. Certainly over 300 which is 20& above current shouldn't be problem. Do you have the exhaust gas mass flow numbers for the .48 and .68 T3 turbine housings? I used to have but can't find now, as I recall wasn't that significant. I think the .68 would be nice but the overall spread of torque is going to suffer, and lose so much lower down that for a general tool (track and road) won't necessarily be the best compromise. The compressor is a .46 trim T4 from memory, so probably a bit of a lag monster, but has sufficient flow and efficiency at required pressure ratio to get the numbers. Accept uitimately not the best choice from modern kit - but came at the right price to the project - free! Ha-ha+
You never know ..just remember , there's always someone cleverer than yourself but then someone is always inventing a better idiot
No movement on this front Martin .Not had chance to build the heads up .
Finally got the hoses for the red one ....Dellboy gave them to Big MVS and he posted them on a next day ...it can be done if you try
I have got to sort the 21 for it's MOT and it needs more than I thought so it's off the road and I'm walking to the factors
5 cars on the drive but none of them work
Hi Lee, thanks for the support, not heard anything yet, so possibly not rejected out of hand, or simply waiting to see all the candidates. Will see ..
Sure understand, well don't get overwhelmed with it. If you can measure all the pairs and send me that, I'll go from that. I'll give you a call. Hope you get on with the 21 ok!
Really good progress this weekend after a bit of a stall
All the real scary stuff is together without any major drama
Next two weeks will involve fitting to subframe to see where things need to be but most of that is plumbing and clearance issues .
The only real big issue will be intercooling but that can be looked at and developed when it is up and running .
In the bunch of stuff with the bi-turbo spares were some blown bits. The piston has suffered detonation damage and ring land collapse. Looking at it in detail and lining up with the head, the side that has gone is the hot side of the chamber - exhaust side. So can really only be excessive heat load, and not pressure front compression. I had expected it to be on the cold side of the piston (cold end gases, high pressure rise and slow entrainment, but doesn't look to be the case. The chap with the goodies I bought the other day has one that has collapsed as well for the same reason, apparently that was when he was running up at 33psi. I'll check the two together to confirm. Interesting, my concern has always been the heat loading around the completely lousy exhaust valve and port configuration probably preventing higher boost pressures safely... will see
Oh, Lee, I quickly bodged a plug for the water pump, will stick in the post for you.
Chris (Scoff), quick question and a thought... the more I think about the PRV and batch fire, the more I think it's an unfortunate compromise for the V6 - ignoring steady state or peak power as appreciate not going to make a great deal if any difference there.
Principally I'm considering turbo lag / transient in low gears, transient load demand or driver demand. The Adapt or Renix ECU fire batch every 2 cycles only, hence the transit delay to provide the increased fueling at the next injection period (worse for the Renix as it builds from MAP pressure than input from throttle position) is going to be at least 2 cycles before induction, if not more before a cylinder is supplied increased fueling, then another before any output… at least… Coupled with lagging mass air flow etc - the turbine is just not going to see the increased energy input required to accelerate the compressor rapidly until some considerable time later, and must be high 10ths of seconds at best, certainly not ms. Add the inertia of the single turbo.... Certainly seems the advantage of multi-cylinder is completely lost, and worse as each cylinder is smaller than a 4 pot of equal capacity, so the net heat input per transient event into the turbine is smaller when it does happen!
I think this compounds on the PRV - 6 cylinders, batch fire, and add poor fuel atomization IMO.. equivalent of thermodynamic treacle, than an earth quake
I have seen on all the PRV heads I have looked at, carbonisation of the inlet tract and into the head post injector. Think this is could partly be fuel carbonisation as it sits there in quantity in the heat. Likely occurring to some degree, appreciate depending on gas dynamics in the port, rpm etc. It's not cam overlap and reversion etc as there isn't any on the std turbo cam.
So thought - is it possible to get the Adapt as fitted to Clee's machine to fire in-between the 2 cycle period? Try and increase the rate of response of the combustor sat in between the turbo.. Or could we use two Adapt ECUs and split the banks, some how trigger the one off the other? I have one I could lend to the cause.
Thoughts Chris? I could be worrying about nought, but does seem a bit of an own goal for the V6? Better make it a V4 and grown the pots…
Lee, when you put the inlet manifold on, do you think you could get a paper gasket in-between as a thermal barrier each side? Even just one 4thou paper thickness would be better than metal-to-metal? Doesn’t need to be anything fancy, just a small thermal barrier, so paper thickness, cut past the o-rings, and punch for the manifold mounting holes, and just sandwich.
If you want to experiment with that ( if at all possible ) then we ought to be doing it on the existing engine first
Would we need a cam trigger as well ??
I was just thinking about it, and think it is a real disadvantage for the V6, single turbo and fast throttle response.. just adds up. Sure I may be thinking about this in too purest way, but my gut feel is it's borne out in what you get. The .68 exh housing just kills it basically for that reason.
Yeah, good point on trying it
Just trying to consider all aspects of trying to screw what we can out of what's there, and throttle response is a big part. The other thing that started to bug me over the last few days has been the inlet manifold being a sponge to all the heat from the heads, hottest water taken off adjacent to the manifold on each side, turbo mounting straight to it effectively with the bracket... all ****e really, especially after trying so hard to get charge temps down, keep densities up only to darn well warm it all up again in the bed pan
Something I noticed on the 3ltr heads whilst I have been playing with them last couple of days (saw before but didn't really take too much notice), is the water jacket is shortened on the inlet ports compared the 2.5ltr turbo castings. This has been done deliberately to reduce heat soak. The n/a and Ren 30 had insulation spacers (+o-rings for seal) between the inlet manifold and the heads..
When you are pushing the det limit, fuel, temps, rear engine and boost...
Smokin
Hi Martin
I'm not sure what you considered a cycle to be, but full sequential injection is probably what you want. Full sequential will fire 6 times in each 720° cycle instead of just 1 like batch. Here's the problem though, the ECU has only 4 injector outputs, not the 6 required for sequential. The ECU would need to know cam angle too, already mentioned.
The only other option you have without installing cam angle would be to fire all injectors at once, at each 120° period. That comes with a whole new set of problems though, when you think of the frequencies those injectors are being asked to work at.
As you've said though, the difference it might make is likely be barely worth while, better to get it built up and running with batch for now. Fine tuning can come later
Here's one for you to ponder though, there is another option called half sequential (cam angle input required).
Using 3 of the 4 injector outputs, 2 injectors per lead, the ECU firing cycle will look like this:
O/P 1 @ start of 1st 120° period
O/P 2 @ start of 3rd 120° period
O/P 3 @ start of 5th 120° period
Chris, checked the details, and the Renix has a slight advantage, it fires batch every 120 deg (each cylinder TDC), so three injection events per 360 deg cycle.... this may make a big difference compared the Adaptronic in this application... what do you think?
I think I'd better bolt it all together ......Cold start is my main concern as far as the ecu goes .I think it may be down to crank speed .
Cock !!! ....Starter motor all fits great ,fits to dowel and managed to re position new holes for the two others nicely but .........The starter gear is permanently engaged as the new protrudes 10mm beyond the mount face and the old is only about 4mm
The throw is a bit more as well but that might not matter
I haven't got any room to move it back as the solenoid/terminals will hit the engine mount .
All I can think to do is grind half the length off the starter gear teeth and hope it still engages enough ??
I think that will be the same as Adaptronic, no ? Each 120° there is an event, so that's 3 in 360°.Chris, checked the details, and the Renix has a slight advantage, it fires batch every 120 deg (each cylinder TDC), so three injection events per 360 deg cycle.... this may make a big difference compared the Adaptronic in this application... what do you think?
Lee, if you remove some off the gear you will need to re-apply the chamfered edges to each tooth to help it engage, I guess.
will the starter ring move further back on the flywheel ? not sure if they're sweated on like the R5 and others, or part of the wheel.
It's a one piece deal . Nothing possible on that side of things .
It a real pisser as apart from that it all fits great albeit very close to the exhaust manifold
If I had a bit more room at the engine mount it would be relatively easy but I had to cut the main terminal down as it is to get it in there ...
Any idea how easy it is to get that gear spindle out to work on ??
oh bum.. may need the guts out of a Laguna starter then - gear and lever engage arm. I think I may have the bits, as I had to build one of of two for the other one. It can be stripped right back, the gear hits a wire ring as an end stop (I don't think you can fully see it), as I remember I just pressed it over or hit it hard, forget now, there was a simple trick to it, when I have a look I will remember
Worse comes to worse we'll have to shorten it in a lathe ..
But the starter did come off a Alfa V6 so got to be some mess'in with it to do bodging some justice
Am I losing the plot, I thought it was 1 batch event in 720° on the current setup? Batch fire every two crank revolutions... doesn't seem right as you say. Think I'm confused now, but the source of that info was Stunned on RAOC in one of your discussion threads with him...
Yes, 720° in batch mode, I was talking about half-sequential injection. Most 4cyl factory ECU's from the 80's and 90's run batch every 720°. It doesn't impact the fueling as much as might think. Rapid transients more so but the asynchronous pump effect works well to difuse those problems it seems. With the V6 you can almost run batch without a throttle pump at all, they're so lazy to pick up compared to a lightened 4cyl.Am I losing the plot, I thought it was 1 batch event in 720° on the current setup? Batch fire every two crank revolutions... doesn't seem right as you say. Think I'm confused now, but the source of that info was Stunned on RAOC in one of your discussion threads with him...
Silly idea with that water pump anyway
I'll leave it be until you've had a gander in the shed
just an idea Clee,Cock !!! ....Starter motor all fits great ,fits to dowel and managed to re position new holes for the two others nicely but .........The starter gear is permanently engaged as the new protrudes 10mm beyond the mount face and the old is only about 4mm
The throw is a bit more as well but that might not matter
I haven't got any room to move it back as the solenoid/terminals will hit the engine mount .
All I can think to do is grind half the length off the starter gear teeth and hope it still engages enough ??
the positive terminal post on the starter has a square end on it, which is trapped by the moulding at the end of the solenoid. - i had one snap on me once internally and i had to smash the post off to free the starter motor (long story), so basically i'd have said instead of messing with the ring gear, either grind the post right back flat to the plastic moulding, then weld a bent tag and another stud over the edge of the solenoid body, making sure you insulate it! - or, grind the moulding right back, remove the whole post and solder a big funking wire off that and then attach the positive wire to that. - should have enough room then.
failing that, get the grinder on the engine mount....
Certainly the better option
I think there is just enough room to move it back but it will touch so there might be some scope to shorten things ,needs to be moved back about 5 mm I think ,will have to have a good measure and pack it out to see .
It will just mean I have to lift the engine off the mount to take the starter off when it's in situ .
7mm and it's clear ...just ,6 and it was just clipping . Will need to shorten the terminal and make up some flying leads ,also ground a bit off the mount but it should work
you could also grind the nut to half thickness.
Way ahead of ya
.. there you are made to measure
4 degrees and drizzle forecast for tomorrow so I think it's time to drop the guts out of the GTA and chivvy things on a bit .....Pivot time again for old JIL ....My farm jacks are shagged tho so will have to do it with trolleysYou 5 boys don't know you're born
If you lived closer id love to help
If anyone wants to pop round and offer words of encouragement then more than welcome .You can pick up some Club clobber as well whilst you're at it
whats wrong with the jacks ?
They were cheap and the climbing mechanisms fecked off .The pins are OK but the actuators don't work properly.I don't trust them .
It'll just take longer with the trolleys as they are a tad too short on lift . Anyone with 2 high lift jobbies local ??
ah. can you not squeeze some more fluid into the trollies instead ? all of mine have always leaked over time, need regular top ups with brake fluid
I'll plonk them on some lumps of wood to get more lift .It just takes a lot longer as you're forever swapping sides etc ....I'll get the SAS on the case to help out if he comes out of hibernation
Got to undo the gear linkages and that's it ready to come out
Fin ...Bumper off and a couple of blocks on the engine trolley and height was not a problem with the std jacks
Stripped ...I'm sending the frame and associated stuff off for a blast then I'll paint it .Not to keen on powder coating .
Getting a bit ahead of myself but I also need to look at the rear geometry as there is no adjustment apart form toe
Need to look at slotting the top arms or non-concentric stuff but of course it'll be all custom
Extract digit time on this for me
Blue car should be out the way by month end so that gives me April to finish JIL enough to test and map early May .Pod may be possible
Useful find in the 5gtt parts bin ...I may need an uprated one though
Lee, just had a thought, do you want to borrow my Crypton engine analyser / tuner, would it help? Full scope, various diagno tests and cylinder kill stuff, all the leads, proper integrated timing light etc etc. I don't have the multi-gas head for it anymore, but I haven't used it in years and just sitting under the bench getting dusty. I don't want to sell it, but if it's going to help you in your various endeavors then I would be happy to see it used, plus I know it's in good hands. Had for the rolling road, but that's gone now...
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