Re: How to get 220ish bhp

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 17:27

What I meant is that anyone could pull any number out of the air, but in reality it means feck all; ie, perhaps his mate's car has more i.c.e/carries more weight, perhaps it runs on 18" alloys, perhaps it wasn't/isn't even running correctly, etc etc, ad nauseum.

RR's are a waste of time as there's far too many fudge factors involved, hence the only way to be sure is to put the engine on a dyno (£££), or run it on the strip, which some people can't be bothered with either.

And fwiw, I'd have personally thought most owners would want improved driveability, response, handling, braking, maybe even reliability, etc, rather than simply having 'bragging rights' power figures to talk about down the pub, which, as I mentioned before, are pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme of real world things anyway.

**Mudslinger** · 04-02-2009, 17:40

Originally Posted by Mart

What I meant is that anyone could pull any number out of the air, but in reality it means feck all; ie, perhaps his mate's car has more i.c.e/carries more weight, perhaps it runs on 18" alloys, perhaps it wasn't/isn't even running correctly, etc etc, ad nauseum.

RR's are a waste of time as there's far too many fudge factors involved, hence the only way to be sure is to put the engine on a dyno (£££), or run it on the strip, which some people can't be bothered with either.

And fwiw, I'd have personally thought most owners would want improved driveability, response, handling, braking, maybe even reliability, etc, rather than simply having 'bragging rights' power figures to talk about down the pub, which, as I mentioned before, are pretty much meaningless in the grand scheme of real world things anyway.

yeah well thats what was said in my first post to compare x car v's x car and try and come up with a power figure is nonsense i agree .

as for rr's being a waste of time i have to disagree maybe certain rr's aye fudge factor is used to often , but there are rr 's out there that do have a purpose , certainly makes mapping them a whole lot easier /safer .as for power figures if you use the same rr every time it going to give you a close idea , im still not convinced that running down the strip is more accurate as there is still alot of factors to take into account ( i dont want to argue about this ,its just my opinion )

as for the last point yeah driveability does play a big part but its a renault 5 we are discussing not a 400-500 bhp evo , i like to think most owners do consider this when modifing there car i mean what more can you do to the 5 to increase the drivability , most peeps have aftermarket suspension and brakes ,poly bushes stiffer engine mounts ,diffs,wheels and tyres, its not like we are all trying to get our 5's to 300 bhp + and running with standard brakes and suspension

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 17:51

Originally Posted by Mudslinger

yeah well thats what was said in my first post to compare x car v's x car and try and come up with a power figure is nonsense i agree

Aii, hence my 'does it matter' comment, so why the need to flag it up if I'm agreeing with you/you're agreeing with me?

Mapping can also be carried out on the road; I'd say it's more preferable. Any decent mapper worth their salts will always final-map a car on the roads. Of course, using rollers helps for getting a base map, or a 'good enough' map, but that isn't the subject of this thread, so not sure why we're now going down this path? I thought we were discussing power figures from rollers, not mapping on rollers?

As for improving driveability, your car is a good example of that for starters, in that you've converted it to efi, or am I stating something already obvious here?

**LampsR5** · 04-02-2009, 18:03

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

lol i guess, just said that so maybe it could help ppl guess roughly what power myn was, im going to it fuelled properly soon down hi tech...p.s the other 5 was my bro's (alex-R5's) old one...not a m8s :P

**Mudslinger** · 04-02-2009, 18:08

forget it , your post of "does it really matter" came across as sarcastic either to my post or 5teveL 's,sorry i misunderstood the meaning of your post

the only reason i brought up mapping was down to your general statement of rr's are a waste of time, which in my experience is not the case not just for mapping but power figures aswell

but id also like to add that doing the final mapping on the road is the easiest part .

peace dude

ps nice to read your back as a 5 owner

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 18:14

Originally Posted by Mudslinger

forget it , your post of "does it really matter" came across as sarcastic either to my post or 5teveL 's,sorry i misunderstood the meaning of your post

You must've mate, as my/that comment wasn't even aimed at you or Steve

It's all good

**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 19:45

RR's are atleast a waste of my time, I guess it depends on how much you value your own time. Using one to make up a base map might save me 30 minutes for any given engine I map, so usefull for that sure but certainly not cost effective unless I owned it and made a business from it. Like mart says final tuning on the road is the single most important part of the whole operation, that applies to carburettors just as much!!

**clee** · 04-02-2009, 20:17

I've got the RR setup all ready to go Scoff

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**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 20:25

Originally Posted by clee

I've got the RR setup all ready to go Scoff

now don't go giving my trade secrets away

**Andrew Cooke** · 04-02-2009, 20:27

Originally Posted by clee

I've got the RR setup all ready to go Scoff

that's how I mapped mine

**renault5gtboi** · 04-02-2009, 20:34

right ime lilstening so if i get the fueling correct the standard intenals will be ok to tek the 20psi and i could run 200hp safly?? with a uprated cam?? i live in mirfield any one know of a really good rolling road set up place near leeds or surrounding areas

any info will be gr8 as i want a power read out aswell

**Mudslinger** · 04-02-2009, 20:53

Originally Posted by Scoff

RR's are atleast a waste of my time, I guess it depends on how much you value your own time. Using one to make up a base map might save me 30 minutes for any given engine I map, so usefull for that sure but certainly not cost effective unless I owned it and made a business from it. Like mart says final tuning on the road is the single most important part of the whole operation, that applies to carburettors just as much!!

Youve just got that special gift Scoff

i doubt there is many car owners with the experience / confidence to be able to do the mapping by themselves, and most places that do mapping use rr's .I know there is a few guys out there that do live mapping on the road, the guy the dentist from the evo club is 1 guy i know off , i also look at some of the cars that drive in the time attack , most of these tuners map there cars on rr's ie Norris and extreme to name a couple all the high powered fords i know off are mapped on the rollers, all this final tuning stuff can be done on the rollers without the risk off being in an accident out on the road or breaking the law .

**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 21:17

Trust me, anything that gets a final map on a rolling road will need a lot of luck if the map is going to be anything like what I would accept as adequate.

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 21:42

I've seen a few of the Evo tuner's maps, and they're fecking shocking for so called professionals who supposedly know what they're doing

I'm not saying I'm the Ahmed Bayjoo or Mark Shead of the mapping game, but if this is the work of modern day/current tuners, things haven't really progressed from the days of off-the-shelf 'grp A' carbs.

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 21:51

Voila, one example of a tuner's (fuelling) map. No chance of that engine ever det'ing!

**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 21:52

I can echo what mart is saying, although I don't have any input on the Japanese world very often. I could show you some tuner maps I've worked on that have cost in the order of 1000 pounds and that were mediocre at best. Ofcourse, those people have been unlucky. Mud, you've been lucky finding yourself a good tuner that knows what they are doing (or more importantly, CARE about what they are doing since so many tuners know but don't care). I have no doubts that a clued up tuner will know how to use his dyno properly and will respect its limitations.

As for being blessed, here was me thinking it was the result of hard work and trial and error. There isn't much in my life other than good health I've ever been blessed with, it will have been a first.

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 21:55

And another, although this one isn't as bad...

**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 22:00

Originally Posted by Mart

And another, although this one isn't as bad...

you boys have it easy with your "dial in an afr" tomy-my-first-map software

but actually, it's fairly common practice for me atleast and others that I know to go heavy on the fuel in the higher regions of map that we havn't mapped. IE, if we're using a 300kpa sensor and the customer only wants 1.5bar of boost then there is 50kpa of uncharterd teritory ofcourse, so I'll go as rich as hell to make sure he doesn't blow it up when fingers start playing with bleed valves.

**Rob@Backyardracing** · 04-02-2009, 22:00

Originally Posted by Mart

I've seen a few of the Evo tuner's maps, and they're fecking shocking for so called professionals who supposedly know what they're doing

I'm not saying I'm the Ahmed Bayjoo or Mark Shead of the mapping game, but if this is the work of modern day/current tuners, things haven't really progressed from the days of off-the-shelf 'grp A' carbs.

I guess tho they have to at least make them more to cover the arse if a car fails etc in the owners hands as back in the day, i cant see a tuner pushing the cars map to the limits to what we would in this club to our own cars.. i guess its how shocking they are and i guess alot then

**LampsR5** · 04-02-2009, 22:01

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

one thing i dont know much about on 5's are the basic ecu's are you guys saying that their ecus can be mapped or we talking stand alone here?

edit i have heard in the past someone told me they had a chip...lol but what would be the point on a carb?

**Rob@Backyardracing** · 04-02-2009, 22:04

oh feck shockingggggggggg mart

**MR TURBO** · 04-02-2009, 22:06

Originally Posted by LampsR5

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

one thing i dont know much about on 5's are the basic ecu's are you guys saying that their ecus can be mapped or we talking stand alone here?

edit i have heard in the past someone told me they had a chip...lol but what would be the point on a carb?

Same here one of my mates had a tungy a good couple years ago and said something like he had a chip on it of some sort it was fookin quick tho

**Adam L** · 04-02-2009, 22:07

Even when I had my Pulsar mapped last year, I was told it always needed finalising on the open road, which I already knew. I was offered the chance of using a rr and declined.

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 22:11

Originally Posted by Scoff

you boys have it easy with your "dial in an afr" tomy-my-first-map software

but actually, it's fairly common practice for me atleast and others that I know to go heavy on the fuel in the higher regions of map that we havn't mapped. IE, if we're using a 300kpa sensor and the customer only wants 1.5bar of boost then there is 50kpa of uncharterd teritory ofcouse, so I'll go as rich as hell to make sure he doesn't blow it up when fingers start playing with bleed valves.

lol, it's not that easy

Of course, over-fuelling higher up the end of the scale, that isn't being used, makes sense for potential over-boost scenarios, but that first pic' I linked was a full range/scale map. 12's at idle & part-throttle, and down to 10's at wot. Crazy! From what I recall of the ign' map, that was fairly conservative as well.

Sure, I can appreciate that a tuner would want to err on the side of caution, but that map is taking the p1ss.

Anyway, soz, I've gone way off topic here, and didn't wish to post Evo/Jap related stuff (again

) which doesn't have much relevance to the gtt.

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 22:14

Lamps, you can't 'chip' or reflash the gtt aei. The only way of making the timing 'adjustable' as such is to play around with the tdc sensor position, reverse the tdc wires, bleed off some of the air going to the vac' capsule, ground the knock sensor connector, etc.

**LampsR5** · 04-02-2009, 22:16

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

didnt think you could cheers for confirming that, i had a wierd feeling the guy i was talking to at kwik fit was talking complete b******s when i had my tyres changed there

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 22:18

Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing

oh feck shockingggggggggg mart

It is mate, and MLR people are paying a pretty penny to have their car mapped by some of these jokers.

On reflection, I reckon we got away reasonably light back in ye olde days of getting sucked into buying a 'grp A' carb from GT Tuning!

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 22:19

Originally Posted by LampsR5

...kwik fit...talking complete b******s...

I can see a link there

**Sparkie** · 04-02-2009, 22:33

all this because once upon a time 'someone' didnt get the same 260 bhp as their mate 'Gary' with exctly the same mods....

if they had, would the rtoc be a different place?

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 22:39

**Andrew Cooke** · 04-02-2009, 22:43

Originally Posted by Sparkie

all this because once upon a time 'someone' didnt get the same 260 bhp as their mate 'Gary' with exctly the same mods....

if they had, would the rtoc be a different place?

apparently 'something wasn't right'...

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 22:44

Yeah, the magazine quotes!

**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 22:53

bollox, just looked, can't find the copy of PGTI, was going to scan it up

I did find a 6yr old pgti with my old rear-engine in it and mart's raider / group thrash feature. some old faces in that.

**Sparkie** · 04-02-2009, 22:56

please find this feature....

you have to! - its priceless!

**gtmatt** · 04-02-2009, 23:03

i have got a pgti in front of me from sept/oct 2004 with a rr day with u lot on at northampton motorsport scoff 235bhp sparkie 194.5 and with troys view on the matter

**Scoff** · 04-02-2009, 23:05

Originally Posted by gtmatt

i have got a pgti in front of me from sept/oct 2004 with a rr day with u lot on at northampton motorsport scoff 235bhp sparkie 194.5 and with troys view on the matter

I got that one here too matt, it's got spencer's feature in it, the one we're talking about is a few years earlier still.

**Mart** · 04-02-2009, 23:19

Ironic as it is, but the RR days (and the night) have been some of the best events we've ever had (excluding ND's of course).

Getting to that stage when we should do another one perhaps...?

**Logg** · 05-02-2009, 07:17

mmmmmmmm back in the day when we all wanted 300bhp!

don't have a scanner so took a quick pic1

**Adey aka Ewok** · 05-02-2009, 08:02

Originally Posted by Logg

mmmmmmmm back in the day when we all wanted 300bhp!

don't have a scanner so took a quick pic1

pmsl, mart you were once a **** too, gosh i thought you were born a tuning god, what mods did the 5 have back then?

**Mart** · 05-02-2009, 08:04

As (repeatedly) said, it's a misquote.

I also acknowledged, later down the line

that Gary's 271hp was a crock of sh1te, as were BB's rollers. Just like when 48 rr'd his car there, about a year or so afterwards, and mysteriously gained 40hp (or whatever it was) from a tdc wire swap...

**Mart** · 05-02-2009, 08:07

The operator's comments are more worthy

plus not long after that RR day, the car done a 13sec' pass at Pod, which, back then, was a bit of a rarity for a gtt.

**Adey aka Ewok** · 05-02-2009, 08:09

Originally Posted by Mart

The operator's comments are more worthy

plus not long after that RR day, the car done a 13sec' pass at Pod, which, back then, was a bit of a rarity for a gtt.

shoulda got a 13 sec shirt from gt tuning lol in fact i might get some made for this years rtoc at pod, would be a good piss take lol

**Mart** · 05-02-2009, 08:10

'GT Tuning - Staying ahead'.

'PMTuning - Staying in bed'.

**Big Steve - Raider** · 05-02-2009, 09:46

Never seen that feature before!!

Love the Comment about your mate having 270bhp & your cars got the same mods!

**Big Steve - Raider** · 05-02-2009, 09:47

Originally Posted by Mart

'GT Tuning - Staying ahead'.

'PMTuning - Staying in bed'.

Amen!

**J$£5GTT** · 05-02-2009, 09:59

LOL @ fcuk knows what went wrong but its definatly getting the
nitrous!!

**Markey Mark (BD)** · 05-02-2009, 10:21

Originally Posted by Sparkie

please find this feature....

you have to! - its priceless!

I got both those mag features tucked away somewhere, i was in both too so kept them safe. I'll have to dig them out at some point and somehow load them up on here.

**Mart** · 05-02-2009, 11:28

Originally Posted by Big Steve - Raider

Never seen that feature before!!

Love the Comment about your mate having 270bhp & your cars got the same mods!

As I keep saying, you geeza, I mentioned nothing of the sort at the time...

**5teve L** · 05-02-2009, 12:49

Yeah, yeah Mart, we believe ya

**Sparkie** · 05-02-2009, 15:21

i was standing next to you Mart when you were moaning about it.
i think i caught your dummy and handed you a tissue....

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