I know why I ran out of fuel II
My main fuel pump just packed in. This isn't going well.
I know why I ran out of fuel II
My main fuel pump just packed in. This isn't going well.
Originally Posted by RussellT
Russ,
Have you a separate power feed to your pumps? The original 30 year old wiring gives a lovely voltage drop and will most likely upset the fuel pump curve.
If you get ten minutes can you draw a schematic of how your fuel setup is configured? I like the idea of using the reserve tank, but need to understand the arrangement further.
I know why I ran out of fuel III
This is really interesting and I bet no one knows this.
I have been using the lifter pump from the reserve fuel tank to fill my swirl pot around the sender unit. Well its a nice big pipe to the sender unit which has a juicy connector on the top to slide the pipe onto. Well my man tried to blow down this pipe and couldn't. The lumen of the pipe connector on top of the sender unit is just 1mm! And when I was sliding the pipes back on I had managed to block it with a stray piece of pipe rubber.
Clearing that out. Drilling out the lumen to 4mm and we should be good to go!
Ill work on the drawing. You will all be amazed at the magnificence of my genius!
R
rough schematic of the new fuel supply system for Doris.
The idea is I can run low levels of fuel in the main tank and excess in the swirl pot merely overflows back into the main tank. The float switch in the reserve tank lights a light on the dash when the level runs low in that tank and I have a new fuel level sensor in the main tank.
Simple really.
I didn't bank on a minute hole in the sender inlet from the reserve tank. And yes I have a dedicated power supply to the fuel pumps good thick copper wires. A top tip that one, I was told that the first job the Ford boys do on the big power Cossies.
Last edited by RussellT; 08-08-2017 at 23:18.
Float switch looks like a cigarette! Lolrough schematic of the new fuel supply system for Doris.
The idea is I can run low levels of fuel in the main tank and excess in the swirl pot merely overflows back into the main tank. The float switch in the reserve tank lights a light on the dash when the level runs low in that tank and I have a new fuel level sensor in the main tank.
Simple really.
I didn't bank on a minute hole in the sender inlet from the reserve tank. And yes I have a dedicated power supply to the fuel pumps good thick copper wires. A top tip that one, I was told that the first job the Ford boys do on the big power Cossies.
Thanks Russ. I hope your healing skills are better than your art skills!rough schematic of the new fuel supply system for Doris.
The idea is I can run low levels of fuel in the main tank and excess in the swirl pot merely overflows back into the main tank. The float switch in the reserve tank lights a light on the dash when the level runs low in that tank and I have a new fuel level sensor in the main tank.
Simple really.
I didn't bank on a minute hole in the sender inlet from the reserve tank. And yes I have a dedicated power supply to the fuel pumps good thick copper wires. A top tip that one, I was told that the first job the Ford boys do on the big power Cossies.
As in dont give up the day job.
Big WE coming up
Return to Scammonden Dam Sat The Fiesta ST that beat me into 3rd is there and Mike Thornton in the Integra who I beat by 0.04 sec to get 2nd at Aintree in my first event is also down to attend. Im car number 5 so fingers crossed for a good event.
Then on Sunday, all being well, Im booked into the rolling road at EFI Runcorn.
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Well today started full of optimism of a chance to compete and a good result and it only lasted as far as the M55. As soon as I got onto the motorway I lost fuel pressure. To compound my woes I just missed a turnoff and had to crawl all the way to the M6 and back. With a sense of deja vu I rang the venue to say I had a problem and would try and make the event.
I started the diagnostic process by extending the pipe from the lifter pump to see what the flow was like and in truth I say it was little more than a dribble. That will need investigating further. Then I took the sender out (I'm getting quite good at that) and took it completely apart. The connector for the pipe from the lifter pump appeared to go nowhere and was blocked when I blew down it. The feed to the engine just connected to the central pipe to the base of the sender and finally the return from the engine exited at the side of the sender cylinder and should feed into the swirl pot. I drilled the inlet for the lifter pump so that it exited into the sender cylinder which I had already drilled to let the fuel out at the base. There are 3 tiny holes in the base for that function but the are only around 1mm in diam. There was also a load of crud in the swirl pot which no doubt clogged the filter and was removed.
So all back together I set off again only to have the same result.
It should work.
Anyway for the trip to Scoff's RR tomorrow weight isn't an issue ill just brim her and keep her full as long as the petrol level is above the top of the swirl pot there wont be an issue. So off I toddled to the petrol station filled her up (35L) and I was stood in a rapidly expanding puddle of petrol. Now what
It looks like the bung repair I made on the side of the tank is leaking. I cant believe it.
Anyway I'm going to try to make Runcorn.
It doesn't sound you you are having too much luck!
What about using the standard fuel pump on the heel board to fill a fabricated swirl pot that sits where the reserve tank is, and just run a campus filler neck?
Then just plumb it in like a conventional swirl pot setup.
Strictly speaking to be compliant with my speed class regulations I have to have all standard equipment on the car. Anyway it is going to work but plan B will be to use the intank pump to fill the swirl pot directly.
Anyway the trip to Scoffs went better she was overfueling power was the same as before and he sorted out my launch control glitch.
You have non standard wheels and tyres, bonnet, intercooler? EFI, inlet manifold. Air filter? Turbo? Boost level? Shocks and springs and bump stops? Carburettor internals? Exhaust system? Brakes? Head work? Bottom end work? Whilst it has the original block and head, it's far from standard.
So are they relaxed about just how standard the competitors equipment has to be?
They are all permitted modifications.
When I say "standard equipment has to be fitted" its the fog lights, radio, electric windows, rear wiper, all the loudspeakers, spare wheel cage (I carry mine in the car) wash wipe, all that sort of stuff. So the reserve petrol tank should remain although I could probably get away with not having it.
There is a standard car class but you can still change dampers and springs.
I made Runcorn. She was overfueling but the power was the same as before and I had no fueling issues at all. I just had to stop and top her up on the way home.
R
Last edited by RussellT; 14-08-2017 at 13:15.
I know why I ran out of fuel IV
This
Was impaled in the reserve tank outlet. 😩
I suspect I'm the culprit when I relocated the pump in the main tank. If so it migrated from the main to the reserve tank and then managed to get its end stuck down the outlet.
Anyway better out than in. Now I have to see if I can get the main tank repaired for the 27th
and they say cable ties are a great invention!
Update on the tank repair
Atlas Plastics and Fabrications Leigh have been really helpful and willing to try and fix my tank. None of the plastic they had in was a match for the plastic of the tank so they suggested getting a scrap tank to cut up into a "welding rod" Anyway Bob at CGB sent me a reserve tank which I took to the firm last Friday. Its going to be a long shot to get the tank fixed and back into Doris in time for me next event at Harewood on the 27th.
Have you see this article?
He used a soldering iron to melt the plastic together and seal the leak: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...from-old-site)
Just picked up my repaired tank from Mick at Atlas Plastics and Fabrications Leigh
He charged me £40and still has the scrap tank if anyone else needs the same service
Matt Cole liked this post
Looks a decent job! With a decent price to match 👍 Luckily ( touch wood) none of mine have ever needed this repair.
Matt Cole liked this post
A huge day at Harewood yesterday.
Stunning weather, the hill was in peak condition with spectacular views down the valley.
I had no less than 19 other cars in my class and 11 cars in total were running the slower 1A tyre and therefore would be included in the result for my championship score. The top men are on List 1 B tyres which are road legal competition tyres. My mentor and Harewood instructor James Kerr had a new set of Extreme tyres with a tread wear rating of 80. Thats basically Blue Tack!.
http://extreme-tyres.com/en/
Just getting to the venue had been an achievement after my recent fuel related issues and the leaking main tank. The run over to Yorkshire hadn't been completely smooth. Doris was misfiring and I seriously contemplated turning around. However I remembered competing and getting a result with the broken gearbox 2 years and I told myself to have faith in Doris. Then I remembered that whilst cleaning the spark plugs I had decided to cable tie the lead from the cam sensor to a HT lead to give it some support. Never a great idea to hold a sensor wire against a HT source. I pulled over fished out some pliers and removed the cable tie and she ran a lot smoother but still not completely smooth and she had a inconsistent throttle response. I really hoped I hadn't founded the injectors again with all the messing around with the fuel pipes.
Anyway I was a tad late but at the venue. Unpacked signed on and scrutineered. The 2 R5's were together in the paddock and looked good in the sun.
Graham Norminton now has the Ex Ian Butcher megabot Bumble Bee R5. He has plans to make her lighter and had bought her a proper parcel shelf so showing some car sympathy. He even checked her oil. Graham is a potential top runner in the class and was on the 1B tyres.
First practice didn't go to well for me. I started OK but ran wide out of the blind left hand country corner, onto the grass and then at the next left I immediately lost the back end and did a 180 backwards into the gravel trap. I was able to remove myself and complete the run but not the start that I wanted.
Next practice saw me make the full course and I managed to break 70 seconds at 69.96. Only 4 100ths but psychologically the time looks so much better with a 6 at the front.
Doris was running fine on the track the diff was working well and I hoped I could run a decent time especially with the boost upped to race mode!
Timed run 1 was quicker but at 69.84 I was hoping for better. That came in the second run. A little more familiarity and refresh the lines in my mind a little more finesse with the right foot and I stopped the clock at 68.66. So pleased to be back in the 68's and the final run 68.95 was looking quicker still on the splits, I was 0.2 of a sec quicker to split 4 but then I was slow through Orchard. The new engine just has that tad more lag and maybe comes off the cam so is slower out of the slow corners.
If I put all my best sector times together I could have run a 68.39, so very much back in the game if not anywhere close to the top men at Harewood. Gordon Riley won with a mega last run 65.48. current Record holder Deryck Jones had to settle for second with 65.58. Then came James a second back on 66.49. Maybe the sticky tyres were slowing him down. Graham also had a spectacular last run of 66.84 almost a second off his previous best, to leapfrog 2 cars into 4th place. The 1B tyres are prob worth a second so Ill concede the win in the R5 stakes to Graham.
I ended up 7th and the fastest 1A tyre runner just ahead of a Honda S2000 who ran 69.00.
So there and back, set a better time than of late, my complicated fuel system worked flawlessly but still a niggle with possible muck in the fuel rail and a suspicious smell of petrol when you lift. On the back of the day I have booked into the remaining events I can do which if I get scores in all will give me a full set for the Longton Championship. I can't afford another missed round. All in all its been a very eventful year and I am just half way with 6 rounds left. Two next weekend, Aintree on Sat and 3 Sisters on the Sunday.
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Last edited by RussellT; 28-08-2017 at 20:36.
Doris heading for the gravel trap
http://www.barcyorkshire.co.uk/gallery/320
If you browse you will find more photos of Doris and Bumble Bee (more of a hornet!)
Matt Cole liked this post
Quality pic in the gravel trap
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DORIS WINS!!!!
Not only does Doris win she destroys the opposition on the Aintree power track with (and this is a first with EFI) a NEW PB time of 52.72 Keith was best of the rest taking 2nd with his last run 54.46 from Nigel Trundle 54.81. You have to say not in the same postcode as Doris and she misfired over the line at 114 MPH when she had been at 120 on the previous run.
I have another event tomorrow at 3 Sisters so I turned the boost down for the next 4 runs and concentrated on trying different rev settings for the launch control. 4K revs worked well with a 2.77 sec 60 foot time.
Keith is likely to get his revenge on the twisty 3 Sisters circuit but we shall be trying to giving it our all to make him work for the win.
Well done Doris! Top stuff certainly and sounds like the ECU is finally paying off! Whats the missfire issue do you think Russel? Anymore tuning required?
Prophetic Matt
After the ecstasy comes the agony
My day today finished like this
I was trying hard to come a distant second to Keith Minshall. On a wet 3 Sisters track his time was faster than some of the single seaters! I was running low boost to control wheel spin. Stuck in a mid field battle I was running 15 psi when just like at Aintree down the final straight she started to run on 3 cylinders. All her fluids were in place and she still ran on 3 but there was a noise that can be best described as a death rattle coming from the engine.
Towed off the venue I came home courtesy of the AA.
Ill post an update when the pit crew have taken a look.
I have no idea how my best timed scored but it maybe game over for the season anyway.
Prophetic Matt
After the ecstasy comes the agony
My day today finished like this
I was trying hard to come a distant second to Keith Minshall. On a wet 3 Sisters track his time was faster than some of the single seaters! I was running low boost to control wheel spin. Stuck in a mid field battle I was running 15 psi when just like at Aintree down the final straight she started to run on 3 cylinders. All her fluids were in place and she still ran on 3 but there was a noise that can be best described as a death rattle coming from the engine.
Towed off the venue I came home courtesy of the AA.
Ill post an update when the pit crew have taken a look.
I have no idea how my best timed scored but it maybe game over for the season anyway.What a real shame!!. I guess reliability is now the key Russel. Get that pit crew working overtime and back to the top!
Trevhib liked this post
A really mix of cars and bikes there, I really like that blue Nova saloon
One slightly worse for wear inlet valve
Bits went up through the throttle body into the plenum and down the other side.
Shopping list.
New head with valves , 4 pistons and liners, Rocker bar (snapped foot), gasket set, head bolts.
2 weeks to the next event. Looking rather unlikely.
Shame I loved that head.
Ouch.
Interesting to postulate the sequence of the failure. I think something definitely happened at Aintree. As I approached the line in 5th she started to misfire. But then ran fine at lower boost levels got me home and back to the next event no issues. Practice and first times runs at the wet 3 Sisters no issues. It was only after I raised the boost a bit to 15psi and went a bit harder at the track so higher revs but low load on the engine as the wheels were spinning that the valve hit the piston and snapped the head off.
I wonder if the original failure was the foot of the rocker bar letting the bar twist away from the head and losing valve lift. Hence the misfire at full attack mode but OK at lower energy levels in the engine then it finally wobbled about and let the piston hit the valve. The cylinder stoped firing when the spark plug cathode was smashed into the anode and no spark.
All academic.
The valve only drops if the collets come off, the valve stem snaps, the cap breaks off, the spring shears apart.
The valves don't drop into the chambers if you remove the rocker assembly.
You maybe find the turbine blades are bent if bits of engine went though the turbo.
And if bits went down the oil return to the sump, the chain, sprockets and oil seal might be damaged.
All that happened to one of my engines.
Well thats all quite depressing
The collet cap and spring of the broken valve
The snapped off stem
Valve head clipped off like dead heading a rose
Both of my C1J engines had what appeared to be valve failure.
First one, the collect seems to come out.
Second one, similar to yours, valve stem snapped, but mine at the top, at the lower collet groove. Couldn't be sure if that was the cause or the result of if the valve had somehow jammed, then the rocker snapped the top off, but then unjammed and fell into the chamber.
Both at full power at about 7000rpm or so.
If I'd had the funds I'd have bought brand new valves. Possibly with better collets with more retaining grooves. The OE valves are 30 years old and 100,000 miles. Then we fit a tall cam and race them.
I did have the valve seats cut lower and longer firmer springs fitted. The idea being that they don't compress so much with a taller camshaft and so the spring pressure remains more linear than with the standard equipment going nearly coil bound.
My advice is to buy these next time.
http://ruanovaperformance.com/gb/eng...and-313mm.html
Bargain them and in the sale!
That says will fit OE, but don't half of the OE valves have only only collect groove.
Probably just a stock photo. But might be better if they do use two grooves.
Once upon a time there were some waisted stem valves. Paul Ivey or something like that.
For the mini:
https://www.somerfordmini.co.uk/esho...207&chapter=20
Paul Ivey waisted stem valves:
£25.50 each inc vat, 36.6mm: https://www.somerfordmini.co.uk/esho...ducts_id=14986
Paul Ivey valves:
£19 each, Inlet 37.2mm: https://www.somerfordmini.co.uk/esho...ducts_id=14973
Similar for exhaust.
If I read it all right, above made by:
http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/race-engine-components.html
Company founded by Paul Ivey.
So, £200 for Mini waisted stem race valves.
Maybe they do some that would fit the C1J head, or get the head modified.
What says fits OE ? The larger Ruanova valves ?
Yes, "NOTE: For installation you need to change the original valve seats for largers. By the rest, plug and play without any adaptation. Valid for OEM guides, retainers, springs and seals."
Thanks for the advice. Those inlet valves do look meaty however the wall between the inlet and exhaust looks very skinny. My head from Prima Racing did have oversized valves see https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...4&d=1463519123
Anyway earlier on in the process of fitting the twin throttle bodies to a siameesed inlet port there was some debate on whether the inner and outer cylinders would be fed with the same fuel air mixture. One benefit of the engine breaking is an opportunity to inspect the internals for signs of detonation and inconsistent fueling.
Check this photo out and I await comments
On past C1J's I don't immediately recall observing such a stark difference between the clean area and the sooted area.
There's a pattern of clean area for the left pair of cylinders and for the right pair.
I don't know what that means though. Hot areas and colder areas of the piston crown? Does it mean the swirl and mix are not all that effective or it would be an even deposition?
Could it be that the fuel has not mixed enough and is 'wet cleaning' the clean areas, then not burning well enough and leaving a lot of soot? Could that be why the power was down from with the carb?
We can see many small indentations or gouges in two of the other piston tops, showing that metal did travel and probably has damaged the turbine blades.
If you look at the tops of the liners, you can see on the left two that there is no clean line or ring or area from the gaskets fire rings. The one next to the damaged one has the clearer area. Ideally they should all be more like that. Was the some gasket creep or leakage. As you're after a race engine, you could consider getting the block top and liner skimmed so they are actually flat. That might help the gasket stay in place and maybe hold the liners in place better. Either way, increased reliability I would think. Big Jim Racing use to do it to C1J's as some, at least, were so badly out there seemed no point in skimming the head and putting it on such a non flat block and liners!
Are you going to change the inlet manifold to one of the fusion motorsport ones when you are having it all rebuilt?
Hello Miller. Welcome back!
I am really happy with the way she breaths so I plan to stick with the same set up but please post me a link.
One thing I haven't done and should consider is changing the OE turbo elbow for a larger radiused pipe. I have huge respect for the original Renault designers and cant help feel they put that acute 90 deg angle in there for a purpose.
http://www.fusionfabs.co.uk/
Contact is Matt Rowley, I am currently fitting [one of his] to mine.
http://www.fusionfabs.co.uk/products
I would recommend the one piece downpipe as you will definitely see an improvement with it.
This company does the downpipe, tubular exhaust manifold and custom inlet manifold.
Chris
Hi Miller,
We've already been all over this with Russell, pictures of Mattys inlet, everything.
Possibly to save money, possibly they only aimed for 120BHP, possibly they re-used existing parts, possibly they wanted to suppress exhaust noise, possibly they didn't know what they were doing. For at least 15 years we've all know better and been fitting something that works a lot better. We're not all deluded half wits who are imagining this stuff.
The odd patterning on your piston tops might be suggesting your bodge of an inlet is not working as well as properly designed items and proven equipment. Showing that photo to some who knows about this stuff might help you achieve quite a lot more torque and power from your engine; maybe another 60bhp or so that, eg, Andrew Cooke was achieving from his EFI with decent gas flowing manifolds, etc.. And many C1Js were over 230BHP through the tiny little carb., 247 in one case with that car doing 11.9 sec 1/4 mile, so not make believe BHP. You're making less power with the EFI! The Big Jim EFI conversion to that red 5GTT, measured up at Scoffs, without NOS, made over 310BHP. Do you see the difference? Your missing as much as 120BHP.
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