Originally Posted by chris
I must've missed Miller's PM then...
it wasn't mate... but if you think it was aimed at you, your mistaken
and I've been sent enough posts, over MANY years off that side of the site mate.... and I know it to be true....... hey most of it was about me back in the day... shame the site crashed as i'm sure if you went back about 13-14 years... you'd find out how much most of us did for this site and got it thrown back in our faces.....
perhaps you should run along, I'm hear all week.... try the fish
Last edited by Moggy; 27-01-2014 at 22:48. Reason: Welsh... can't write in English
Ok mate thanks for reply.
There wasn't a CM board on the old site
oh thats a shame... I wonder where the pages of posts about banning me was hidden then.....
anyway - as per usual, this isn't about me.... this is about having a club run properly and fairly....
if this was in any other 'hobby' world.... and people actually had a little more interest, instead of 'breaking away' you could of had a vote of no confidence.... so I'm quite glad they broke away.... less mess to clear up. Although I now expect the rules to be changes yet again.
yeah there was. before vbulletin we had the dtdigital site which i maintained.There wasn't a CM board on the old site
i coded the committee boards on that site.
Chairman ???
Shouldn't he be running the club and taking control of the committee and the members yet another massive thread about this and he's not commented yet ??
What's happening Chris ?
We know you are busy with your house ,but the club is a mess at the moment and it's been long enough again with this subject and an apology needs to be made about offensive comments etc and the club sorting ,so we can all get stuck in with are renault turbos
No apology needs making from me for offensive comments!
• I was reacting with a small comment to offence already given.
• In a private conversation about the contribution some people would have toward the rival club website.
• It was in a thread I started where I said I was resigning as I was so utterly repelled by some peoples behaviour and comments toward the efforts made by myself and others, and the last straw of a threat of another rival club being started, which then was started, for what appeared as a petty demonstration against a rebuttal I made previously against other previous offensive slagging off that I and other organisers of the FCS RTOC day had received.
There appeared to be a very small group of people actively working against the good of this club of 500 or so people, just because they were annoyed at have been strongly chastised for making comments that I and others found unacceptable.
I'm not sure that we've received any apologies for any of that or other slagging off. I'm not sure I care now.
There are people in this club who see, and work for and toward, the bigger picture and other people who appear to only see their own needs and those of their immediate circle of acquaintances.
Regarding the nonsense with the title of club chairman. This committee structure from the outset never had a king, dominar, all powerful super being, call the role what you want, Miller was never 'in charge' of the committee or the club. Just one of the management team with specific tasks, same rank as the other members of the team. The mistake was to use the title chairman as we didn't realise there were so many people that 'need' to look up to someone in charge and appear to not be able to comprehend there not being a overall parent figure. I don't think that way, but evidently a lot of people do.
Miller created the 'sin bin' as an alternative to banning which was the prevailing feeling at the time of an apparent concerted effort to damage this club / unseat some of all of the committee / or whatever the motive. There was no intelligent conversation taking place between the groups, in fact all the RTOC committee were banned from the rival website. What else were we to do here to protect this club and its interests and intellectual property other than ban or restrict the main protagonists of the rival club.
My feeling is that before we progress with this restricted members situation the RTOC should have an assurance to the RTOC membership from those concerned that they will make no further attempt to undermine or damage this club, or it's interests.
I feel the club should have an answer as to who filched the thread and what other threads were copied and distributed if any.
It's all so childish, I said this because he said that, so silly.
If anything I have said has caused offence to anyone please contact me via pm or call me like an adult and I can discuss the matter and apologise if it is needed. Though I'm not actually sure I've said anything or bitched about anyone directly?
And now you've updated your post. Am I included in this group you speak of as the creator of the site? If u want to actually talk about it pm or call me
Adey, I'm listing the set of situations that caused this current predicament.
Didn't you already say that you didn't intend to have any damaging effect on RTOC? I seem to recall that.
The committee accepted what you said and reinstated you. It's a shame you didn't think of a PM to any of us at the time of setting up the RTOF to say something like. 'don't worry, not trying to cause any problems, just trying it out', or whatever.
But there are now questions remaining and demands being made of the committee and perhaps blame apportioned to them, so I'm attempting to clarify a few things that some people are not aware of.
It's a shame that there weren't simple clarifications at the time of the RTOF and actions taken on it's behalf, from the various people involved in what has been said since to be an unfortunate timing of certain events.
This was hard to do, considering no one was talking and all attempts to discuss anything were removed or locked down. This is an issue for here, not another site. blocking people was a knee jerk reaction to having my paid for services removed here, there membership was reinstated long before mine was. But again this is a discussion about rtoc, member access on another site has nothing to do with this discussion.
I shouldn't need to but i can see you point and yes maybe in hindsight i should of. In return if you were worried any one of the committee could of contacted me to ask?
No actions have been taken on my behalf but yes maybe for rtof. Again clarification could of been sorted along time ago with simple communication, to get my point across or speak to anyone directly took a committee member responding to me directly via fb, not rtoc and nearly 2 weeks later, where he then told me he thought i had already been contacted. no need to go round in circles over it, everyone needs to learn from it. Communication is the key
Hello Ian ,
The wording in the club section seems a little ambiguous in its reading. Lines such as
and
I think the use of the title Chairman might need to be adjusted to if its causing issue ?
What do you hope to achieve from this ? What specifically will you gain ? By your own admission the data has little value.
I am not trying to be troublesome here , far from it. The ship is sinking Ian , we need to start putting things like this behind , adapt and grown.
Last edited by andybond; 28-01-2014 at 19:35. Reason: cos Ian left it like a pigstye
Plenty was being said of FB though. A lot of it making the situation worse.
Hi Andy,
IIRC, it was 7 years ago!, by figure head we meant representation at events and to outside organisations. 'Oversee all aspects' proved to be a bit optimistic and anyway that's more or less what I was doing for the next year or two. Yes we've been mumbling about deleting the word 'chairman' for some time.wording in the club section seems a little ambiguouswill oversee all aspects of the clubalthough I appreciate there is a part stating that they have no controlling power as an individual.They will act as a figurehead of the club
I think the use of the title Chairman might need to be adjusted to if its causing issue?
It's a security breach. It is still happening, might it happen again? It's a trust issue. There's a person that perhaps should not have that position of trust in the future. If it's too much for accomplices to dob in the one, then why not just put their hands up and admit it, like someone else was sensible enough to with another matter.What do you hope to achieve from this ? What specifically will you gain ?
I don't think it is sinking. Why is it sinking? Events are being booked, people are joining, the FB areas are growing, the shop is selling stuff, there are new RTOC helpers and more offering help. Membership will be up quite a bit once the 'freeloaders' pay upThe ship is sinking Ian , we need to start putting things like this behind , adapt and grown.
Yes, there were alot of 'keyboard warriors' on facebook... who aren't so rude on here.. hmmm.
I can understand wanting to know where the 'breech of trust' came from.. just so it didn't happen again.. but i think we all know where it came from & it won't happen again as they won't be in a position of trust again. Simples.
I think we ALL need to move on from here, a lot of damage has been done to RTOC over the last month that will take a long time to sort out.
Hang on a second. Who edited my post ? I did not leave it in this mess.
Its ok , Ill let you off this once. DaveL485 wouldnt forgive you this easy though.
If you want to multipart quote its easiest to just hit the quote button on the bottom right and start inserting your own quote bits. Every set of quotes has to be paired.
You will note when you quote at the very top you can see a [ QUOTE= somename;some number ]
I have had to space mine out a little , or it will turn into a quote.
Scrap the number and the preceeding ; you dont need them
copy it , wrap it just around the bits you want to quote and use a [ /quote ] to finish the quote off. You can then make your own snippets up without having to edit others and leave them a mess. Some of use server geeks are very finicky about our paginations.
Last edited by andybond; 28-01-2014 at 19:39.
Dont pussyfoot Steve. Name names..
...and the point of this thread is? What I really mean is, where is it leading, positively?
As for the club not needing "a figurehead" or Chairman, I strongly disagree! If ever there
was a time when some strong "leadership" was needed, it is right now. If ever this club
was rudderless, then I don't think it could be more apparent that it is now.
Regards,
Steve
...and the point of this thread is? What I really mean is, where is it leading, positively?
As for the club not needing "a figurehead" or Chairman, I strongly disagree! If ever there
was a time when some strong "leadership" was needed, it is right now. If ever this club
was rudderless, then I don't think it could be more apparent that it is now.
Regards,
Steve
The post got deleted on facebook so my 'proof' is gone Andy, therefor unfair to name anyone.
But it wasn't you.. or Dave..
...and the point of this thread is? What I really mean is, where is it leading, positively?
As for the club not needing "a figurehead" or Chairman, I strongly disagree! If ever there
was a time when some strong "leadership" was needed, it is right now. If ever this club
was rudderless, then I don't think it could be more apparent that it is now.
Regards,
Steve
...and the point of this thread is? What I really mean is, where is it leading, positively?
As for the club not needing "a figurehead" or Chairman, I strongly disagree! If ever there
was a time when some strong "leadership" was needed, it is right now. If ever this club
was rudderless, then I don't think it could be more apparent that it is now.
Regards,
Steve
Thank you Steve... at last
so lets hear it from the Chairman.... if we don't have one.... lets get it sorted NOW
Ian i see what you're saying but you're as bad as the others now for going in circles
until Miller posts and stamps his foot thats all is going to keep happening
or If the club decide we don't need a chairperson.... well....
For what my opinion is worth, I feel that it's very important to have a Chairperson in charge of a club or organisation. Every single organisation has one...a Tesco branch has a store manager, a school has a Headteacher, a country a President, a football club a chairman, a ship a captain etc etc.
Sometimes, the person elected to be the figurehead has to make a final decision on a situation. It's just the way things are, if you have a group of people all trying to steer a ship in different directions it could spell disaster.
I would feel far more confident as a paid member of a club that had a final decision maker when things got tough!
All decisions are voted for so no one person can run the club. With voting on things it keeps it fair. And a broad spectrum of opinions everyone on the commitee is from different walks of life. Of course it would be nice if miller could be more involved but he isn't the club can easily run without him until he can come back.
But It shouldn't be like that Chris. There should be an ACTIVE chairperson. If Miller can't fulfill his role he should give it up & someone else should be voted in.
(please dont shoot me down as trying to bump off the committee) If thats the case why is there a need for him? if the club can run without him why is he there?
On the other side i do think we need a leader as such, a chairman, but an active one. Every other position in the club necessitates you to be available to work and be active, is it not the same for the chairman position?
Ian has been doing this for years.
And what would change if there was a chairperson? Would you prefer to have all decisions made by one person or would they still be voted for? If so then it's just another vote. If people need a chairperson to be on there back to do there role then they shouldn't be doing there role is my belief. But of course that is just my opinion and I also think that chris miller is very good when he is involved
if thats the case then there is no need for miller and Ian becomes chairman, if he doesnt want it then it should be put out to the member for vote.
Maybe the answer is not to have a description of the club roles written by the cm alone, maybe input from the members is needed, that way anyone who takes up a role knows what the club as a majority want from them?
Even if adding Chairman to his job title makes no difference to how the committee works?
Or are you saying we need a dictator a la Bruce?
I think it's only good thing when we discuss different ideas mate it's arguing that does everyone's head in? Ian has been seen as the leader of the club when miller is away but he always discuss's things with everyone on the committee and we vote and so on. In an ideal world then miller would be involved on an day to day basis. But I don't think it's for leadership but his experience and his passion for the club
No, the committee needs to be like a board with a chair, everyone has equal voting rights but the chair is empowered by the cm to enact those decisions and be seem as the figurehead.
this comment takes me back to
Should it not be seriously looked at? inline with what the cm have written to be the roles the members should have an input of what they want from the people in said positions?
I think the committee just needs to be re arranged if I can word it like that votes etc on how's it's done ,miller / chairman name needs to be removed or name changed ,if we need one or not ,just have a committee that's it maybe , let the members decide on vote ,
I think the key word here is - leadership
Regards,
Steve
As said steve ian has and is seen as the leader by the committee when miller isnt around unfortunately for ian he hasnt put himself forward for it thats just the way things are. And as said every decision is voted on we all have our own jobs that we get on with any help we need and we put a post up on the committee boards. I cant see why that Iis a problem it works
****RTOC Future Prediction****
January 15th 2064 - General Chat
It is with deepest sympathy that we must announce the Ian Simpson has stepped down from the Committee of the RTOC
What changes the game rules here, compared to, eg, an office that has a weekly and monthly meeting, is that this an internet forum with an 'always on' committee meeting taking place 24 / 7 / 365.
Everything is always visible, all the stuff everyone is doing, plans, comments. It rolls on and on.
The job of the chairman of a board, during a meeting, is to direct the meeting, which progresses through a list in an order, following an etiquette. Then everyone goes away and communicates through a designated manager to report it all to a senior manager, which could be the board chairman. He is then, through a chain of command, also the organiser of activities away from the meetings.
This is superfluous for the way RTOC works.
Apart from events, where a report should be made to the committee from the event organiser and then made available for the members who were not there.
I recently added to the list of jobs thread, that the committee could do with a designated spokesperson to report stuff to the members.
Perhaps the people that advocate a leader could list here what the leader should do exactly, beyond what is done by other committee members.
So, if I read this correctly, this is a description of either a lack of structure, or lack of any
adherence to an existing structure. It can hardly be surprising that so many allegations
(real or otherwise) are being levelled against this by all and sundry. There is clearly an
unease that needs to be addressed.
In other words sets the agenda (either directly mandated by the membership at a
General Meeting or by responding to ongoing situations) and then follows that through
to fruition.
Really? If that's the way any committee member sees this, IMO there is something very
seriously wrong.
I'm only speaking as an observer, but what I'm seeing here is a Committee under seige.
Apparently, this isn't the first time it has happened. If that's the case, then the agenda
being set by the Chairman should be in settling this problem once and for all.
Regards,
Steve
enough is enough
every organization in the world that's worth its salt has a one man at the top
its time we done the same
ian I like you because your visible and say what you mean ( no sugar coatings)
I may not like what you have to say but at least I know where I stand with you
so take the bull by the horns and sort this mess out please
our club has become a mess and we need a strong leader to sort it out
having spent time in millers company hes a really nice guy
but as active as he may be on the cm boards its very much the case out of sight out of mind to the ordinary members
if these internal feuds cant be resolved soon I fear the rtoc may not survive
and the members will move on
can the last man out turn off the lights please
Enough is when the items are fixed that come up time and time again and people reinstated. Thats when enough is enough. And not a minute sooner.
We have some top suggestions on here from people outside the normal loops. It would be madness to discount their opinion. They are going to be the most unbiased one way or the other of anyone.
That's why I'd like someone to take charge and sort it
Or do we just have another selection of threads and no results or execution of ideas
There's no captain sailing the good ship rtoc through these stormy waters
Its not, I've been on here since 1998 and its happened ever since I can remember, regardless of the club being run by a committee or a leader (Rach H) or a Dictator (Bruce) there have always been a small number of very vocal members constantly voicing their opinions which can be seen as trying to undermine the leadership. Its grown worse as the internet has become more accessible. I don't think Miller being more active or another CM stepping into that role would make the slightest bit of difference.
Perhaps its just the way it is and we just need to accept it and move on. This is the best car club I've ever been involved in and I think that's due to the enthusiasm of its members. Unfortunately the love that the members have for their cars and the club sometimes gets misinterpreted and snowballs into situations like this one.
The whole mess is linked to ND being at FCS which clashed with Sangliers and its now snowballed to where we are today.
Threads popping up like this time and time again under different guises don't really help we just end up repeating the same things over and over and everyone gets sick of it.
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