Koni Suspension

[Wallace]

Hi all,

Following on from this thread: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=30543

PLEASE FAMILIARISE YOURSELF WITH ALL THE INFORMATION IN THIS THREAD, so you are happy with what is on offer, should you have a question that has not already been raised then please feel free to do so.

Please note: I have opted out of springs on this group-buy – it’s mostly due to the lack of stock from Koni direct! - If things had been a simple kit, readily available then we could have progressed with a ‘FULL’ kit to include springs, but this has taken up enough time and just hasn’t been straight forward. There are numerous suppliers of Koni springs on the internet.

This is now your chance to speak up if you are wanting Koni Suspension Parts – And I propose that ALL monies are paid by the END OF DECEMBER, to enable us to make the purchase beginning of JANUARY? It goes without saying that some people (myself being one) get paid at the beginning of the month, if this is the case then speak up and we will together agree a confirmed date
KEY FACTS
· The KIT Comprises of: Pair Rear Shocks(adjustable)+Pair Front Shocks(adjustable)-Phase 2 ONLY!
· All monies are to be paypal’d to: shop@rtoc.org on an agreed day/date (this will extend for perhaps 1 week only)
· Within this payment YOU MUST include: your user name, your name, and your preferred delivery address
· Within the payment, PLEASE INCLUDE an extra £10 for delivery to your specified delivery address – If purchasing from SOUTHERN IRELAND/HIGHLANDS etc delivery cost is £15 – If purchasing from the CHANNEL ISLANDS delivery cost is £23

NEITHER THE CLUB NOR MYSELF will deal with the actual despatching/delivering of the items-this is to be done by Koni, all we will do is forward the appropriate information to them (This charge is STANDARD RATE, whether you purchase just 1 set, or more sets!)
Listed below, are what Koni (UK Based distributor) are offering at trade prices, assuming we (the club members) can generate a large enough order to get the trade prices: 10 kits+

*FRONT SHOCK ABSORBERS (pair) – Phase 2 vehicles only - Part No. 8741/1167-SPORT @ £180.00 incl VAT
EXAMPLE HERE: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Koni-Renau...71037370598%26


*REAR SHOCKS ABSORBERS (pair)– Phase 1 & 2 compatible – Part No. 26/1299-SPORT @ £96.00 incl VAT
EXAMPLE HERE: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Koni-Renau...item41698c4c96

TOTAL FOR KIT = £276.00 INCLUDING VAT

GRAND TOTAL FOR KIT INCLUDING DELIVERY (MAINLAND ONLY) = £286.00 INCLUDING £10 DELIVERY CHARGE!

There is bound to be things I’ve missed, or further queries, but I have tried to keep this as simple as possible:

(1) Add your name to the list on this thread, once we have the required numbers (fingers crossed)we can agree a money transfer day.
(2) Total up yourself (including delivery charge!) what you owe, send the money to the club WITH YOUR DETAILS.
(3) Beginning of January we place an order.
(4) Delivery date T.B.C from Koni, Wallace to advise via Koni and club website.

[Wallace]

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[Mart]

Top top work Alex

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[Fishey]

(1) Wallace
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[Numptysnumnuts]

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[Logg]

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[1988cab]

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[LiamR]

(1) Wallace
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[Big Steve - Raider]

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[Nottswoody]

(1) Wallace
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[Mr Raider]

(1) Wallace
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(7) Liamr..
(8) Big Steve - Raider
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[MikeA]

If I'm honest I'd rather pay in January sometime. Bit tight with Xmas and all but will do what needs to be done.

Thanks again to all for arranging.

(1) Wallace
(2) Mart
(3) Fishey
(4) Numptysnumnuts
(5) Logg
(6) 1988cab
(7) Liamr..
(8) Big Steve - Raider
(9)Nottswoody
(10)Mr Raider
(11) MikeA

[Wallace]

Nice one guys

I will contact PPD tmrw,and see if perhaps if we gave them a deposit then we can reserve what we require.

I'm going to suggest we aim to make the FULL payment within the first 2wks of January.

To keep this thread to a minimum, could peps just post if they can't or have a problem with paying around then?

Ok guys......12 'kits' have been ordered from PPD with our name on them!

I sincerely ask that if your name is on the list-please please do not mess about when paying time arrives!

They have agreed to order them in WITHOUT a deposit, and are happy to be left with maybe ONE kit, but not any more!

RTOC rule of 3 cannot come into play here

Once they contact me to say they have arrived, I'll let u all know

[LiamR]

I agree, thanks for sorting this. A great group buy

[Mr Raider]

Hats off to Wallace (Alex) for sorting this mega deal out, top man! got the cash good to go when required

[Wallace]

Nice one guys

As above Ian and I agree, let's start getting monies paid over now

Please please don't forget the required information, user name etc!!!

And just be prepared to wait, they are in manufacturing now-so can't expect anything till end of January I would have thought as its xmas etc

Once again, as soon as I know anything I will post on here

[Jonny Hogan]

New poster! (less than 10 posts)

urgh ... had a week or so away from the forum.

I am absolutely needing one of these kits - is there anyway wallace you'd be able to add another numpty on there ???

J

(1) Wallace
(2) Mart
(3) Fishey
(4) Numptysnumnuts
(5) Logg
(6) 1988cab
(7) Liamr..
(8) Big Steve - Raider
(9) Nottswoody
(10) Mr Raider
(11) MikeA
(12) Jonny Hogan

[Ian S]

Please send your payment to shop@rtoc.org

PLEASE NOTE:

We are paying £286 to Koni so you have to make sure we receive £286 to pay them on your behalf.

PayPal deduct £9.92 if you send £286 (3.4% + 20p) so if you use PayPal you have to pay their fee yourself.

Or PayPal us £296.30.




If anyone needs or prefers to use bank transfer then:

Barclays
RTOC Shop
20-72-89
40934070

I think there's no message area with that so you'll have to tell me by PM your
• delivery address
• real name
• user name

Thanks



PS:
It might be that if your PayPal account is in credit, there's no fee.

PayPal Gift should be OK as you can trust us

But do PayPal get a bit funny when a lot of gifts are received? Especially as it's a large sum and we're not exactly a personal account holder. I've heard forum talk of them locking accounts but not seen the evidence.

Maybe we'll be OK with few gifts if most are bank transfer?

Bank Transfer is good. And then send me a PM with your details

See how helpful we are For an easy life we could have just said PayPal us £296.30.




We may put the price up for any left over from this group buy and put them in the shop but for now RTOC is not making any profit of these.

[Wallace]

Ian, you are a true gent! - Thank you!

I'll BAC's mine over too.

[gttjames]

cheers ian. For your info i have recieved alot of paypal 'gift' payments and sent and never had a issue.

Il check paypal balance etc and make payment, cheers

[Ian S]

We probably can add a pair of rears to the order if anyone wanted. We can certainly ask PPD.

There shouldn't be much wrong with good second hand ones though? The rear are mono-tubes and though I don't know it for a fact, maybe they last longer? Hunch based on that Bilstein mono-tubes are said to last very well.

In the other thread someone may have wanted Koni phase one, I seem to recall that some eBay trader may have been offering the Phase one shocks, but that may be the same story as the Fiat Cinquecento, listed on not actually available, and de-listed from eBay when I asked him and he then phoned (PPD) Koni to find what I already knew, they were discontinued, but he was also told they are only available if 100 are ordered.

[Ian S]

Now that we've reached 10 payments, is our order going in this week?

The order went in already on the basis that we would get the payments and I (the shop) would buy the remaining few kits if there were any. See post 16.

Just in case some people are wondering, some extra were added to the original 12 in that post.

Will get this payment in tomorrow, is that still ok

Yes, of course

[LYNCHSTAR]

is this deal on a full kit only. i only want front shocks for my phase 2 i have rear ones already.

[Wallace]

is this deal on a full kit only. i only want front shocks for my phase 2 i have rear ones already.

As per PM - Yes full kit only

At these prices its worth getting new and selling your old

All i will say is, dont delay please because once they arrive in the UK the payment will be sent straight away - this group-buy has gone very smoothly and i want this wrapped up, as does Ian i would assume

[Nottswoody]

1) Wallace - Paid Bank
(2) Mart - Paid Bank
(3) Fishey - Paid Bank
(4) Numptysnumnuts - Paid PayPal
(5) Logg - Paid PayPal
(6) 1988cab - Paid Bank
(7) Liamr.. - Paid Bank
(8) Big Steve - Raider - Paid Bank
(9) Nottswoody - Paid Bank
(10) Mr Raider - Paid Bank
(11) MikeA - Paid Bank
(12) Jonny Hogan -
(13) gttjames - Paid PayPal
(14) Lynchstar - Paid PayPal

[Wallace]

Good effort everyone

Thank you

All in all, gone/going well

As soon as i hear anything i'll post up here, and if by around mid Jan i've heard nothing, i will contact them for some kind of update

[Wallace]

Don't hold me to this

Koni uk are saying: first batch (10+ kits) will arrive to them End of January?!

Second batch: Mid February?!

So really by the end/mid February it'll be a done deal

I'll keep you all posted

[Ian S]

Come the time, PPD will send me the pro-former, I'll pay it and forward the list over to them. They'll then send them all at once I expect.

[Wallace]

im ready, at work so il make payment tonight when i get home

Nice one James

The payment effort is appreciated everyone- because its just saved a load of faffing about

[Ian S]

..

Still need you're delivery address.

Can you PM it to me please.

[Wallace]

Hey all,

Koni have had delivery of all the Rears

Fronts will be next week

Once again, when alls complete we'll start getting the money over to them (Thank you Ian) and can at that point get an idea of when we'll see them on our doorsteps

Keep ya posted

[LYNCHSTAR]

cant wait to recieve them.

[Mr Raider]

Still need you're delivery address.

Can you PM it to me please.

Pm'd to you Ian, sorry didnt see this post! looking forward to the end of the month!

[Wallace]

Right then guys, PPD called me on Friday to say they had 11 kits in stock in the UK ready to ship!

Soooo as of today, Ians has VERY kindly arrange the payment and sent them the individuals shipping details

Obviously that doesn't complete everyone's orders, so i have taken it upon myself to just send them to the people who have either expressed that they need them quickly! Or in the order of payment!

Forgive me if this causes a problem or pisses you off - buuuut I can't mess around giving preference to each individual!

THESE ARE THE MEMBERS THAT WILL BE ON THE NEXT DELIVERY!!!
(1) Lynchstar
(2) gttjames
(3) jonnyhogan

Once I hear from PPD, I will pm you guys and post on here to finish this and get you guys sorted! I'm sorry it's not been in one hit, but that's been out of my control!

[Nottswoody]

Ooooh I was just thinking of these today iv had crap or second hand crap on my car some owning it and although iv made the car abit quicker iv never had confidence in the corner and the rides been terrible on my back lol... Oooh I hope these help?

Thanks to you guys for organising this I will have these on the weekend they arrive top blokes the both of yer I will get you a drink when I see you cheers

[Mr Raider]

Well said its an awesome deal really, cant wait to get them its like christmas allover again!

[Numptysnumnuts]

Just out of curiosity and please don't laugh

There is no special tooling needed to swap these out Bit late in the day I know beings as they are here somewhere

[B18ftMOJO5]

Do you have to order a complete set. I just need some adjustable rears. I have working leda ones in the front.

[Nottswoody]

Just out of curiosity and please don't laugh

There is no special tooling needed to swap these out Bit late in the day I know beings as they are here somewhere

I wouldn't of thought so.. Just be aware that you will probably need new bearings maybe rubber mounts and check your top hats.. I believe Bigfoot was buying some in to help out members..

[Ian S]

For the top you'll need the Allan key and 21mm(or 22mm?) ring spanner.

Perhaps spring compressors.

[Ian S]

Do you have to order a complete set. I just need some adjustable rears. I have working leda ones in the front.

There might be some used one for sale from buyer in this thread.

We only ordered full sets from Koni. That's what they got for us. We have another 3 full sets spare.

[Nottswoody]

Wow thanks guys these just popped up through the post.. Thanks again..

[Mr Raider]

Big thanks guys, took delivery of the Koni's this afternoon

[MikeA]

Just got my delivered. All looks good so far so big thumbs up and thank you to everybody involved for arranging this!

[Logg]

Got mine today as well

thanks everyone involed in sorting these out

[Ian S]

Very good I paid for the 11 sets on Monday afternoon so that's nice and quick processing

What are you all doing for springs? Re-using what you have?

[Alex]

I must say this has been one of the best group buys I've seen on the RTOC - most fall by the wayside before even getting off the ground!

Side decals anyone......

[Nottswoody]

I will either be using 50mm apex springs or 40mm spax not sure yet really if I had of been off work today for happier times they would of been on my car by dinner..

You do know there's going to be a thread on from this "what set up you using today?" Lol

As for decals I was thinking of taking off my oe Renault badge and replacing it with some big "I'VE GOT KAHONIES INIT"

[Fishey]

Big thanks to everyone involved in this, got mine today, hopefully have them on Saturday morning.

[Nottswoody]

Suspension Tuning Tips by Bob Tunnell

Before getting into specifics of suspension tuning, here are some thoughts about suspension tuning drawn from my own experience...
1. When listening to advice, consider the source and the context. Many of the Internet special interest groups are a wonderful source of information. But one of the biggest drawbacks to all the advice you see on SIGs is that the authors are rarely qualified to offer SPECIFIC advice for YOUR car. It's easy to SOUND like an authority... it's rare to actually BE one. When reading their advice, pay particular attention to what make and model of car they own and drive, what modifications have they made that are truly applicable to your car, how experienced they are, what discipline are they tuning for (autocross, road race, street, track, etc.), and how closely their budget resembles yours.

2. Be specific in your analysis. If your car is pushing, pay particular attention to *when* it pushes. Is it on initial turn-in? Is it mid corner? Is it on corner exit? Or is it a combination of all three? For example, if a car pushes in mid corner, but not upon entry or exit, chances are the problem lies with alignment, spring, or bars... not the shocks. So it's critical to properly identify the symptom and isolate the true cause of the problem... the treatment needs to address the root cause.

3. Fix the end of the car that has the problem. If your car isn't turning in properly, don't adjust the rear of the car to try to make the front end work better. Conversely, if the car is extremely tail happy because of low rear grip, decreasing the front grip to compensate may make the car feel balanced, but it will ultimately make you slower. Often in Stock class autocrossing or road racing we're forced into adjusting the "wrong" end of the car because rules limit our ability to adjust properly, but these methods should be considered a last resort.

4. Don't discount driving technique as a big factor. Most drivers don't like to hear this, but it's true. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told by a driver, "My M3 pushes like a pig!" But when I get in the car it seems perfectly balanced to me. I'll ask the driver what his previous car was and invariably it was a Camaro, Mustang, Corvette, or other high horsepower RWD car. M3s were not built to handle the same as pony cars and they cannot be driven quickly with the same technique. Slow sweepers in particular need to be entered slowly, under control, and "carved"... not tail-out Dukes Of Hazard style. And the best part -- changing your driving technique doesn't cost you anything!

5. For the best results stick with one tuner. Professional high performance tuners know more than anyone else about how to make your car fast. We work on making cars faster and handle better day in and day out. We know which products perform best together and which ones don't. By mixing and matching products -- usually in an attempt to get the lowest price -- customers often end up with a car that doesn't respond like any of the advertising claims they've been reading. Put a pot pouri of components on your car and you'll likely end up with a mixed bag of results and wasting your money. Different tuners have their areas of expertise and their advice.... spend a little extra, discuss your needs and budget with a professional tuner, and you'll likely get far more value for your money.

6. "Compromise cars" will not do everything well. I am frequently asked how to set up a car that will be good on the track, but still plenty comfortable to drive on the street. Not everyone can afford to own enough cars to have one for a commuter, one for autocrossing, one for road racing, one for rallying, and another for concourse events. Most of us are forced to live with compromises... one, or maybe two, cars that have to perform a variety of functions. When asking a tuner for advice on how to set up your car, you must first determine in your own mind what compromises you'll be able to live with and be certain to communicate your needs. If winning autocrosses is more important than having a luxurious ride during your 5-minute commute, chances are you'll be happy having your car set up more for performance. But if you drive an hour to work over frost heaves and tar strips, you probably should set up your car more for comfort and leave the WRC Championship for another time. BMWs are amazing cars and can do a lot of things well, but don't expect a tuner to do the impossible.



And about the following Shock Tuning Guide in particular...

7. The following guide is for tuning shocks for road racing -- autocross tuning can be very different. Road racing maneuvers are almost always done "in phase," meaning the link between driver input and vehicle response is usually linear, or very close to it. In Autocross we frequently encounter "out of phase" maneuvers, meaning secondary inputs are often necessary before the vehicle has even had time to respond to the initial input... slaloms and high speed offsets are good examples of maneuvers rarely encountered in road racing. The suspension tuning is often one quite differently.

8. Guides like these almost always assume you are able to change all elements of the suspension. The guide below (and most guides like them) are based on the assumption that you have already optimized the spring rates and that you are dealing with a fairly balanced, competent, road car. For most of us we rarely encounter this "perfect" situation. In Showroom Stock road racing or Stock Category autocross, for example, we are faced with preparing a car as it comes from the factory and cannot change spring rates. We often deviate from these basic guidelines to "trick" the car into doing something that would make factory shock engineers cringe. <g>

9. Make the shocks do their job and let the other suspension components do theirs. The primary job of the shocks is to do two things -- affect ride quality and control the rate of weight transfer. Don't ask them to act as springs (unless you're stuck with the dilemmas I presented in #1 or #2). In terms of handling control, shocks do very little in the middle of a corner. Springs and sway bars have a much greater affect on handling in the middle of a corner. By paying particular attention to #4, you'll have a better idea whether the problem lies with your shocks or elsewhere.



And one last general guideline to keep in mind...

10. In general, stiffening one end of the car will reduce the mechanical grip on that end. In other words, when you raise the spring rate, increase sway bar size or stiffness, stiffen the bump or rebound of a shock, install firmer bushings, etc. you will reduce the grip on that end and decrease traction. To increase grip you must lower the spring rate, increase the sway bar size of stiffness, soften the shocks, use softer bushings, etc. (Tire pressure is another contributing factor, but that's a discussion for another day.)





KONI shock tuning guide
Suggested Adjustment Procedures For Road Racing Use
(from the KONI NA Factory Tuning Guide)

Adjusting The COMPRESSION (Bump) Damping Control (Very Important to do this FIRST!)

Bump damping controls the unsprung weight of the vehicle (wheels, axles, etc.). It controls the upward movement of the suspension as when hitting a bump in the track. It should not be used to control the downward movement of the vehicle when it encounters dips. Also, it should not be used to control roll or bottoming.

Depending on the vehicle, the ideal bump setting can occur at any point within the adjustment range. This setting will be reached when "side-hop" or "walking" in a bumpy turn is minimal and the ride is not uncomfortably harsh. At any point other than this ideal setting, the "side-hopping" condition will be more pronounced and the ride may be too harsh.

STEP 1: Set all four dampers on minimum bump and minimum rebound settings.

STEP 2: Drive one or two laps to get the feel of the car. Note: When driving the car during the bump adjustment phase, disregard body lean or roll and concentrate solely on how the car feels over bumps. Also, try to notice if the car "walks" or "side-hops" on a rough turn.

STEP 3: Increase bump adjustment clockwise 3 clicks on all four dampers. Drive the car one or two laps. Repeat Step 3 until a point is reached where the car starts to feel hard over bumpy surfaces.

STEP 4: Back off the bump adjustment two clicks. The bump control is now set. Note: The back off point will probably be reached sooner on one end of the vehicle than the other. If this occurs, keep increasing the bump on the soft end until it, too, feels hard. Then back it off 2 clicks. The bump control is now set.

Adjusting the REBOUND Damping Control

Once you have found what you feel to be the best bump setting on all four wheels, you are now ready to proceed with adjusting the rebound. The rebound damping controls the transitional roll (lean) as when entering a turn. It does *not* limit the total amount of roll; it *does* limit how *fast* this total roll angle is achieved. How much the vehicle actually leans is determined by other things such as spring rate, sway bars, roll center, ride heights, etc.

It should be noted that too much rebound on either end of the vehicle will cause an initial loss of lateral acceleration (cornering grip) a that end which will cause the vehicle to oversteer or understeer excessively when entering a turn. Too much rebound control in relation to spring rate will cause a condition known as "jacking down." This is a condition where, after hitting a bump and compressing the spring, the damper does not allow the spring to return to a neutral position before the next bump is encountered.

This repeats with each subsequent bump until the car is actually lowered onto the bump stops. Contact with the bump stops causes a drastic increase in roll stiffness. If this condition occurs on the front, the car will understeer; if it occurs on the rear, the car will oversteer.

STEP 1: With rebound set on full soft and the bump control set from your earlier testing, drive the car one of two laps, paying particular attention to how the car rolls when entering a turn.

STEP 2: Increase rebound damping three sweeps (or 3/4 turn) on all four dampers and drive the car one or two laps. Repeat Step 2 until the car enters the turns smoothly (no drastic attitude changes) and without leaning excessively. An increase in the rebound stiffness beyond this point is unnecessary and may result in a loss of cornering power. Note: As with the bump settings, this point will probably be reached at one end of the car before the other.

However, individual drivers may find it desirable to have a car that assumes an oversteering or understeering attitude when entering a turn. This can be easily "dialed-in" using slightly excessive rebound settings at either end.