Help with tce project needed

[westytce]

Hi all, I have a Clio 1.2 tce that is 163bhp, 170lbs ft.

I need to have the engine forged IMO to keep it running well and when I get the lighter flywheel it will rev better and improve things quite a bit....but I want the engine to be bullit proof...., so I need help getting forged parts for it....The con rods, pistons, uprated head gasket, head bolts, etc.

ive spoken to omega but they're not convinced they have made fprged pistons for it Before and orders are a minimum or 12 pistons so over £1k. And this would be a one off order, Cosworth have a minimum order of 24 I'm told.... ouch...

So far only one company in Italy sells the products i need, cat cams do sell rods for £799 before vat!!! So that's not happening anytime soon...

Ktec are on the case with a lightened fly wheel and uprated clutch, they have sent these off at the moment....

Clutch is a valeo unit as o/e. and ATM my map has 17kg of load on it, apparently so I'm told the maximum is 19/20kgs of load before slippage occurs.

Pics are on my general chat thread.

Hope I can find sone help on here... After all it is a Renault turbo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQQ-zkQOi0w

http://www.carserviceracing.it/publi...)/DSCN2796.JPG

http://www.carserviceracing.it/publi...)/DSCN2805.JPG

http://www.carserviceracing.it/publi...)/DSCN2794.JPG

[Mart]

Have you tried Wossner? The (ex) BB Tuning guys might be able to assist as they used to have their fingers deep in that pie - I think they're called Engine Dynamics these days.

Alternatively, MecaParts (although they cater more for the older Renault) or my man Sylvian at Jacquemin Tuning.

If you can hang fire a couple of months, the AutoSports Show at the NEC is worth a visit - Plenty of traders & manufacturers present, hence I'm fairly sure you'll be able to source your parts there.

[Bigfoot]

http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/performanc...p2047675.l2559

[westytce]

http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/performanc...p2047675.l2559

Left them a message thank for the link... How do you know them...

[westytce]

Right brilliant at last some positive people on the phone....

I don't know who the Renault parts guru s are on here but I do need some engine spec information on the pistons, rods, crank, etc etc... So help with this would be brilliant if possible.

Engine dynamics sounded like good guys on the phone and sounded keen to help but with no information and no parts to see... They really couldnt give me anything to chew On.

[Bigfoot]

Left them a message thank for the link... How do you know them...

Years ago used to share a workshop with somebody working on my car, about 15 mins down the road from me as well as the Engine Dynamics (ex - bb performance)

[westytce]

I think I'll ask the wife to buy me a second hand engine for Xmas....

[Sparkie]

Clutch is a valeo unit as o/e. and ATM my map has 17kg of load on it, apparently so I'm told the maximum is 19/20kgs of load before slippage occurs.

volvo 480 turbo clutch perhaps?? is the clio one a 200mm clutch?

[westytce]

volvo 480 turbo clutch perhaps?? is the clio one a 200mm clutch?

Dont think so, luk dont make one for it....

[Bigfoot]

Had a look at the 1.2 turbo clio, and the clutch dont fit much else, twingo turbo, wind, modus and a couple of others, non which will have a performance clutch made for it really.

[westytce]

I have to wait for ktec then ill put fly wheel in too, ive just put a clutch in and 2 days later im told oh.... We will have an uprated one soon..... Arggghhhh.....

Very little available for this engine...

Nice of you to have a look though thank you.

[westytce]

Better pictures

[Sparkie]

what you can do is mill alittle bit off the face of the flywheel where the clutch cover sits on the flywheel.- only about 0.5mm. - this increases the clamping load of the cover.
you can then get Helix to modify the centre plate into a paddle type.

[westytce]

I have some information that may be helpful regards forged pistons rods etc etc. please have a look and if you know your onions reply

Valve spring length -
40.20mm

Cylinder head -
99mm

Cylinder block -
69.000 = 0.015mm class A
69.015 = 0.015mm class B.

Pistons and rings - Diameter - measured 9.0mm from bottom of skirt.

68.796 + - 0.006mm class A,
68.984 + - 0.006mm class B,
Ring gap spacing 120 degrees

Piston ring end gaps -

Top compression 0.20 to 0.35mm
Second compression 0.35 to 0.50mm
Oil control 0.20 to 0.90mm

Crank shaft main bearing journal diameter -

Standard 44.000mm + - 0.01mm
1 st undersized 43.750mm + - 0.01mm

Crank pin big end journal diameter -

Standard 40.000 +0 - 0.016mm
1 st undersize 39.750mm +0 - 0.016mm

Crank shaft end float -

0.045 to 0.235mm


Now I understand engines a little, but now im not so sure..... Does this information help at all with me getting hold of forged parts.... I.e does it share any parts with other renaults that are already available....

[Sparkie]

http://www.apexpistonring.com/PDF/RENAULT.pdf

more info?

[GTphil]

Great project nice to see a modern Renault turbo being pushed.

I notice that someone has already mentioned this above but do you really need forged internal parts?

If you are running 1.25 bar currently with a less than ideal map and it's holding toghether then with a good map why would it not be relaible then?

Assuming you have given it a good beating on occasion? If your happy with the current power or would like maybe just a little more then you would be better off spending the cash on

VNT
Standalone ECU
Mapping
Clutch

This is only my opinion and I'm not trying to discourage you at all

Plenty of people have ran relativly reliable power with standard internals on f7p/ lumps and even took the tops of the pistons down to lower the c/r. Unless the pistons are made of chocolate then I can't see why it shouldn't be the same for your lump.

Shame you can't pull another engine apart to have a good look at it, mind you, if the market is there then the likes of E/D and k-Tec will more than likly be doing it soon enough.

[westytce]

Great project nice to see a modern Renault turbo being pushed.

I notice that someone has already mentioned this above but do you really need forged internal parts?

If you are running 1.25 bar currently with a less than ideal map and it's holding toghether then with a good map why would it not be relaible then?

Assuming you have given it a good beating on occasion? If your happy with the current power or would like maybe just a little more then you would be better off spending the cash on

VNT
Standalone ECU

Mapping
Clutch

This is only my opinion and I'm not trying to discourage you at all

Plenty of people have ran relativly reliable power with standard internals on f7p/ lumps and even took the tops of the pistons down to lower the c/r. Unless the pistons are made of chocolate then I can't see why it shouldn't be the same for your lump.

Shame you can't pull another engine apart to have a good look at it, mind you, if the market is there then the likes of E/D and k-Tec will more than likly be doing it soon enough.

Hi phil,

The engine is on 85k, was a demonstration car I'm the first owner other than Renault, so ghe car would have had a good thrashing when test driven each time as it was one of the first tce clios being an 07 reg.

It just makes me a bit nervous knowing it's 70% more torque and 63% more power, on standard internals with 52% more boost, all that with relitively high milage.... I just want to be sensible with it and do it properly not improve performance to just brake it

It does rumble when you put your foot down and I just worry that it will go pop....

The unit is a good one imo with sodium cooled valves, and below piston oil jets like the Clio 197 or older style cossies.

I think this vnt turbo idea seems good I'd like to know more about these, I think I'll speak to to turbo dynamics about this.

The mapping will be booked in to continue to smooth it out.

No standalone is available as the Damos file is not very well known and cant be made available yet as other components won't work such as the dash etc.... Rubbish I know, one thing I said to ktec was that I wanted standalone as I want it down properly but apparently it's not available

Clutch and fly wheel are firmly on the to do list...

[westytce]

http://www.apexpistonring.com/PDF/RENAULT.pdf

more info?

Interesting, thank you,

I've emailed wossner so will see what happens with this.

Renault denied me any technical information when I requested it regards engine internals so much for customer support

[Tony Walker]

I wouldn't worry about the mileage, if it was going to blow up it would of done it along time ago. All age does really is wear the rings/bores reducing compression a bit. Only issues that then causes is possible oil contamination but I should imagine you change the oil regularly anyway.

[GTphil]

And here's me thinking you can use a standalone ecu on any car! I better stick to spanner and socket tuning......

Without doubt going down the forged route will get you a stronger motor, they aren't indestructable tho, I have seen forged pistons come out half melted after a fueling issue at only moderate boost, I have always been under the impression that unless you want bonkers power the reliability is all in the tune/map, if it's set up correctly I.e fuel and ignition, and the cooling is taken care of then in theory it should be fairly reliable. Also correctly is far different from a safe tune, to much fuel can also be bad news especially for higher milage motors.

I am by no means an expert and I'm sure at somepoint someone more in the know may be able to advise you further.

Love the fact your pushing on with it as most wouldbuave given up by now

[gtmatt]

I had on of these 09 plate nice car than I got a 197 'that's some power for the engine well done

[westytce]

The wife agreed to buy a second hand engine for Xmas.... Love her

[westytce]

I had on of these 09 plate nice car than I got a 197 'that's some power for the engine well done

Standard 197.... My torque curve may give you a sleepless night mwahhhaaaaa

Good project I am fitting 13 oil cooler so cooling should still be ok, I think wiring in afan may be a good idea as I sit in traffic a lot

[westytce]

01278 453036 forge, 800 notes for pistons, coming back to me after some digging.... Hmm

[westytce]

Tce forged Pistons available for 887.33 euros, inc tax, exl delivery... from pro toxide Italy, contact is tiziano. Rods are not needed he tells me his customer has done 15,000 km with only Pistons at 150 bhp.

Turbo dynamics tell me no turbo upgrade available on this flange, only a rebuild, not even internal parts upgrade.....its a passat 1.9td turbo..... Hmm....

[Tony Walker]

Passats are really common for being remapped, and perform really well afterwards, there should be plenty if info on the turbo durability/performance.

[westytce]

Thank you mr walker.... off we go down the find info about passat turbos route....

[James5]

Thank you mr walker.... off we go down the find info about passat turbos route....

Find out what flange type your current turbo is worst case you may need a custom downpipe, but there are prob some bigger turbo's out there (not to laggy), possibly even a VNT that will bolt straight on although saying that controlling the VNT and mapping it maybe a concern.

[westytce]

I've had manifold custom made to fit this turbo and it's the triangle flange k03 type.

The manifold is 4 into the turbo, top mount turbo. Down pipe should be easy to change size as is easily accessible out side of turbo :-)

Does the k04-015 have the same fang as ko3? is it a triangle flange if so this could be an option... Turbo technics did say there was no upgrade though strange.... If there is one.....

[stu21t]

I had a set of one off pistons made by arias pistons. Cost me about £7-800
They were very very nice.
Id recomend them.

[westytce]

I had a set of one off pistons made by arias pistons. Cost me about £7-800
They were very very nice.
Id recomend them.

Such a tease.... Where is the contact information

Contact number or email.... Forged pistons? Time scale from start to in your hand?

[stu21t]

Google

http://www.ariaspistons.com/


I cant remember the lead time but i also had some liners made at the same time..

[DaveL485]

Google

http://www.ariaspistons.com/


I cant remember the lead time but i also had some liners made at the same time..

Speaking of which, did you have the rings on the pistons coated? I'm about to use them!

[westytce]

Ok guys gals, pistons and turbo aside for one moment,

I'm going to finish off the 13 row mocal oil cooler next weekend it's mounted next to intercooler and ready to plumb in now I have the right oil feed pipe. I'll be removing the o/e water fed oil cooler)

so i need a bracket and fan for the mocal oil cooler..... Why... Because I sit in a lot of traffic and want to keep her cooler than a penguins bum....

Any ideas of who can supply this!?

[GTphil]

Do you know the optimum temp your oil needs to be to do it's job properly?

Might be worth finding out first, as you don't want to over cool your oil as that will cause your engine to wear very quickly as the oil won't lubricate properly if it's to cold.

Unless or course you have already done this and the fan will be controled by a thermostat to regulate the oil temp as oppose to over cool it. Colder than a penguins arse will definatly be no good for the engine bearings not mention the turbo

As for where to get them, I'm useless on that one I'm afraid , I would assume tweeks or somewhere similar.

[Sparkie]

demon tweeks catalogue?

last time i looked at one it all sorts of rally spec fans and stuff.

[westytce]

demon tweeks catalogue?

last time i looked at one it all sorts of rally spec fans and stuff.

Only see rad fans on web site.

Not sure where the dam mag is

[Tony Walker]

Same thing? rad fan/oil cooler fan.....

[westytce]

Same thing? rad fan/oil cooler fan.....

Mr walker oh how size matters....

Call to deamon tweeks and 5 minutes later ive Ordered 7" fan, wire, switch, and seperate relay to wire in properly delivered Tuesday

roll on next weekend, oil cooler with mrs fan... disks and pads... Tax was done this week too

I'm now thinking, battery to boot so I can fit the shiney mocal oil catch tank.... More space then too ??

[Tony Walker]

Mr walker oh how size matters....

Call to deamon tweeks and 5 minutes later ive Ordered 7" fan, wire, switch, and seperate relay to wire in properly delivered Tuesday

roll on next weekend, oil cooler with mrs fan... disks and pads... Tax was done this week too

7" is plenty apparenty

[westytce]

7" is plenty apparenty

The wife thinks so....


Ere not your wife... Well maybe, i dont know, honestly i dont but I meant my wife

[westytce]

So the fan, relay box, wire, swtich etc arrived today picked up oil and filter just now... another busy weekend on the car





Plumb in mocal sandwich plate now i have what we think is the right oil feed scew pipe,

Brackets made for the fan, fit fan, and wire it all in,

Disks and pads,

See where catch tank can fit andplan for this....

Oh and fit a side light bulb. Lol


Do.we know if clio 197 spark plugs will fit? Also anyone know if better leads are available or how to mproving spark in general.

Reorderd sandwich plate to a thermostatic one....

Any opinions on swirl pots?!?

[westytce]

So a disappointing weekend... We know know that the sandwich plate does not fir this model.... It fouls on the oil pump bolt by about 2-4mm. No space at all for fan

We tried to modify the sandwich plate, grind the wall down but it wasnt enough, we couldn't do anymore ad the seal would be out of the cast otherwise and leak,

No spacer plates available for mocal so only a remote oil filter set up is the option....

Found the oil feed pipe to turbo leaking slightly so a braided line is a must ASAP
2 clamps on the pipe to keep this at bay for the moment

Boost clamps were all loose to tightened these all up....

Bulbs fitted no probes. N

Steering wheel eletrics are dead.... As I had cruise control, speed limiter, etc etc all the wires needed to run it fouled on the boss, so to resolved out came the cutters.... Still steers right and left... Job done, just need to wire in horn

Disks and pads on easy enough... Lol.... So now have measurements for someone to help make up brackets for wilwood 4 pots.

Last note... Will a tcv from a Megan fit mine??? We think it may resolve it not liking boost over 1 bar. It holds 1.2 just.... But doesn't like it boosting quick in low revs.... Wonder if this could be solution. ??

On e plus side 50+mpg....

[westytce]

Thinking of using the already mounted mocal oil cooler as a secondary water cooler. Using the existing water cooled oil cooler pipes and plumbing it in so the water rundown through the mocal and the oe water oil cooler this should help keep the water cool and help cool the oil through the oe water cooler

Ordered a braided oil feed pipe. May need to modify as it's for a vw diesel van but I'm sure it's a ko3 turbo fitment so this is the next little project

Any ideas on the limp mode boost issues guys?!

[Tony Walker]

is it going in to limp mode when boosting at low revs? it may be spiking? where do you take your boost reference from? best place to reduce spiking is the compressor housing?

[westytce]

http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/...psbae45ee4.jpg

Hi Tony,
Goes into limp mode below 2k if you give it to much throttle, ktec seemed to think it was ecu not able to convert throttle response into required / desired performance at that time/ revs so then is says nope sorry limp mode....

I'm not sure... now that map above isn't on car, as when I took car away 2 mins down road with the above map, Limp mode popped in very early..... So took it back and andy loaded up an earlier map... He explained he needed more time on it really.

I asked about actuator adjustment, ktec said nope it was the electrical bit that controls boost etc n74 valve iirc? Is that right? My mechanic mentioned that maybe the valve needs replacing with one that can handle more boost ie Megan one but he hasn't seen map etc so was just a thought.

The amp above is spiky but I havnt seen lots of maps to know much different

[Tony Walker]

it does look like it spikes slightly have you got a graph showing your boost pressure?
tend to spike more at lower revs because the turbos flowing more than the engine can, then higher revs the engine flows more than the turbo can( unless you have a massive turbo)

[westytce]

it does look like it spikes slightly have you got a graph showing your boost pressure?
tend to spike more at lower revs because the turbos flowing more than the engine can, then higher revs the engine flows more than the turbo can( unless you have a massive turbo)

Turbo is ko3 from 1.9td passat.

Holds 1bar on full boost, peaks at and 1.25 - 1.3bar but doesn't hold that boost. No graph was given to me

[westytce]

http://m1324.photobucket.com/albumvi....jpg.html?o=27

Update is that I have an oil feed pipe to try on for size

[westytce]

The update is that the sandwich plate doesnt fit at all so no way of fitting mocal..... rubbish.... that was a while ago but its booked in with ktec as it s leaking oil and has a oil pressure fault on load.... finger s crossed its a simple fix.....