Engine Dynamics F4R Turbo Conversion

[andybond]

Yada yada yada They said the same in the MLR world about Evo o.e rods failing at 400+, yet ~6 years ownership, keeping the revs the happy side of 7k, proved otherwise.

When these F4r rods fail, is it complete failure (ie, snapped), or do they bend? What's the condition of the big-end bearings at time of rod failure?

How many rod failures have been reported?

there are anomolies Mart , one guy has run 330bhp and 330ibft for 3 years without fault. Others fail quicker. Rods are bending not snapping.

I am unsure of big end condition once failed.

I am all for running more power through standard internals! I am in two minds whether to forge my lump so testing to destruction could be an idea

[andybond]

IMHO the turbo is too small hence the high torque at low RPM and the rapid drop off further up the rev range.

so by reducing the torque at a lower level and making the curve flatter you think that the rods could last longer ? Ie bolt a 3071 on , bigger injectors and hope ?

I dont know the answer to that one matey. Let me email Paul ( or Scoff - you able to comment ) for an answer.

[The new Bill J]

.....why not sell the Clio & buy a Megane 225/230 instead?

~£4k for a reasonable 225/F1 team, or a couple of bags more opens up the 230/R26 option, which has the LSD in situ.

This is what I've been thinking lately

[andybond]

If anyone wants to test a meg with a few mods they are always welcome to test mine.

[Mart]

there are anomolies Mart , one guy has run 330bhp and 330ibft for 3 years without fault. Others fail quicker. Rods are bending not snapping

Ok, well with what Mr Speedy mentions about the fuelling leaning off, I'd lay a firm bet there's detonation/knock at high rpm/load, and it's that, coupled with the high rpm, that's causing these rod failures.

Likewise, if bottom-end lubrication isn't sufficient enough (hence asking about the bearings condition), that would naturally induce extra heat into the rods, and with the additional/varying heat cycles, that may possibly also weaken the rods.

I am all for running more power through standard internals! I am in two minds whether to forge my lump so testing to destruction could be an idea

See what you can find out about the lubrication, and if all is good, and if you can keep the fuelling happy at the top end + don't be too rev-happy, I reckon you'd dispel that 300 lb-ft myth...

[andybond]

Ok, well with what Mr Speedy mentions about the fuelling leaning off, I'd lay a firm bet there's detonation/knock at high rpm/load, and it's that, coupled with the high rpm, that's causing these rod failures.

Likewise, if bottom-end lubrication isn't sufficient enough (hence asking about the bearings condition), that would naturally induce extra heat into the rods, and with the additional/varying heat cycles, that may possibly also weaken the rods.



See what you can find out about the lubrication, and if all is good, and if you can keep the fuelling happy at the top end + don't be too rev-happy, I reckon you'd dispel that 300 lb-ft myth...

Mart, I cant get my head around the fact the two of the best tuners out there would let the cars lean out / det / knock ?

I am not a rev bouncer !

[Scoff]

I don't get to see many engines with standard rods still, but I am fairly sure it's related to load Mart. In my own experience I was bending, and then snapping rods when torque increased. I'd trust Paul's opinion on this one, he see's far more examples of tuned stock motors than anyone else, and I can vouch for his calibration ability

[Mart]

Mart, I cant get my head around the fact the two of the best tuners out there would let the cars lean out / det / knock ?

I'm not saying they do, but there's other scenarios that can induce detonation later down the line after the mapping session; ie, they fill up with 95ron fuel, a weak/failing fuel pump, fpr not holding pressure, high act's, oil/vapour being drawn into the cylinder, etc.

[Mart]

I don't get to see many engines with standard rods still, but I am fairly sure it's related to load Mart. In my own experience I was bending, and then snapping rods when torque increased. I'd trust Paul's opinion on this one, he see's far more examples of tuned stock motors than anyone else, and I can vouch for his calibration ability

Were you also high rev'ing though?

I'm certainly not questioning Paul @ RST's knowledge or experience, nor am I disagreeing per se with any points made; it's a good discussion (for a nice change ). Just I personally don't subscribe to torque being the only factor associated to rod failures, hence highlighting other possibilities (imho) as to how/why they fail.

[andybond]

I'm not saying they do, but there's other scenarios that can induce detonation later down the line after the mapping session; ie, they fill up with 95ron fuel, a weak/failing fuel pump, fpr not holding pressure, high act's, oil/vapour being drawn into the cylinder, etc.

I hear what you are saying Mart. Just seems coincidental that a majority of > 300ftib Meg's bent rods. Most achieved this with the aid of a decat...

I have dropped Paul an email to enquire further.

Thanks for your contribution Scoff.

[SP33DY]

Spoke to Specky earlier and he thinks both meg 225's and 250's have the same pistons and rods.

[Tutuur]

I've tried researching it but the people who have rebuilt 250 engines didn't answer

[Ricardo]

Ahem......

So, sub 300 everyone. ED kit, Clio.

It's not so much buy a Megane and modify, it's the upkeep, running, parts costs that would finish me off. At least with the Clio the parts are so much cheaper on the wear and tear side of things

[andybond]

Spoke to Specky earlier and he thinks both meg 225's and 250's have the same pistons and rods.

I dont doubt what Specky has said. Whats the difference then engine wise ? Why can the 250/265 be mapped so easily to produce that much more power ? 315bhp and similar on a standard map.

[andybond]

Ahem......

So, sub 300 everyone. ED kit, Clio.

dont you dare drag this topic back on track !

( yes - ED seems the best. Didnt scoff help with the mapping ? )

[Brigsy]

Meg all day long, just for the handling. Andy Bonds r26 was epic with the lsd at blyton, could hook the power up no problems. Even stock open diff 225 handling is good.

However mpg is poor, but i imagine a turbo clio would be exactly the same

[SP33DY]

I dont doubt what Specky has said. Whats the difference then engine wise ? Why can the 250/265 be mapped so easily to produce that much more power ? 315bhp and similar on a standard map.

The only difference's I was aware of was that it was fitted with a better turbo and and better flowing cams. It's also got VVT, not the 16 degrees on/off like the clio 182 but the incremental set up like whats on the clio 197/200.

[andybond]

The only difference's I was aware of was that it was fitted with a better turbo and and better flowing cams. It's also got VVT, not the 16 degrees on/off like the clio 182 but the incremental set up like whats on the clio 197/200.

the turbo isnt drastically different from what I hear , but nobody has tested it to destruction. Paul has run on in Malaysia at 320bhp.

I know of one car that has the 250 engine in it ( a clio ) with VVT delete and its running strong power.

Need to investigate more.

( Sorry for the thread hijack ! )

[andybond]

However mpg is poor, but i imagine a turbo clio would be exactly the same

Depends on who did your map mate. Mine is reasonable when on it , and excellent when on the motorways.

In contrast the boosted clio I had was very , very good on juice.

[Ricardo]

dont you dare drag this topic back on track !

( yes - ED seems the best. Didnt scoff help with the mapping ? )

Yeah Scoff did the mapping side of things on the kit

[andybond]

Yeah Scoff did the mapping side of things on the kit

I dont think there is a better recommendation for the kit then. If It has his name on it and I was in the market I would be heading straight to them.

[DaveL485]

This is what I've been thinking lately

Bond text me an ad for a cat d Meg Turbo on an 05 last night. £1600, needs a rear bumper and an exhaust replacing. If I had the time and room...


If you're happy to drop the Clio Ricardo and buy the Megane instead, do that. Unequivocally, definitely without question. Less heartache, ballache, no time extended investment required and no spiraling project expense (because it ALWAYS DOES), it's a far, far better idea.

By, like, a billion times.

[TopCat]

I sit on the other side of the fence & think you should turbo charge the Clio.

[andybond]

I sit on the other side of the fence & think you should turbo charge the Clio.

Having owned both I can say the clio is more of a giggle , but the megane the better all rounder.

[Ricardo]

Stop it boys you're making me sway to Megs

Just had a brief look on AT and up to 6k buys me a Megane R26 F1, Recaros, looks nice

Would obviously have the sell the Clio to finance the purchase, there are unknown quantities. Ive never been in a Meg R26, ive never been in a high boost 182 either.

It would be nice to have back to back test rides to see they're all about

What's different about the R26 to a 'normal' 225, i have to admit i prefer the later ones

[andybond]

Stop it boys you're making me sway to Megs

Just had a brief look on AT and up to 6k buys me a Megane R26 F1, Recaros, looks nice

Would obviously have the sell the Clio to finance the purchase, there are unknown quantities. Ive never been in a Meg R26, ive never been in a high boost 182 either.

It would be nice to have back to back test rides to see they're all about

What's different about the R26 to a 'normal' 225, i have to admit i prefer the later ones

The f1 is a cross over model.

You want the 230.

Comes with the better seats , LSD and either vanilla , or lux pack. Lux pack had various options inc xenons and keyless entry.

[TopCat]

The f1 is a cross over model.

You want the 230.

Comes with the better seats , LSD and either vanilla , or lux pack. Lux pack had various options inc xenons and keyless entry.

Keyless entry will be fun with a flat battery. & with french electrics

[Ricardo]

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classifi...gane?logcode=p

[Mart]

up to 6k buys me a Megane R26 F1

There's an echo in here

[andybond]

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classifi...gane?logcode=p

Thats not a lux packed one ( mind you my Glacier White one isnt either )

[dangerous dave]

Is it not a case of, run a clio 182 for buttons and run a 225 for real money?

I'd just pay ED or whoever, my time could be spent earning money extra days on my day job rather than a slow learning curve into the clio turbo world. I also expect the fit and finish to look clean, when a lot of homers looks sh1t and remain a work in progress.

[andybond]

Some parts are expensive and quite rare. Steering racks are £200. Discs and pads aint cheap but then it is a quick , modern car.

[Ricardo]

Is it not a case of, run a clio 182 for buttons and run a 225 for real money?

I'd just pay ED or whoever, my time could be spent earning money extra days on my day job rather than a slow learning curve into the clio turbo world. I also expect the fit and finish to look clean, when a lot of homers looks sh1t and remain a work in progress.

ED are asking another grand to have the kit fitted.

Ok. theoretical situation.

Purchase the ED kit, there's no credit involved here it will all be paid for by me not borrowed or financed.

No real timescale for completion.... Although I see no reason why it can't be done by Sangliers in June this year.

My Clio has been modified in every way bar the power hike.

SPAX full coilover setup
Solid top mounts

Braided brake hoses
Ferodo DS2500 pads

Soild engine mounts
Polybushed gearbox mount

Scorpion exhaust
Scorpion decat pipe


So, engine out, complete refresh, paint the block, powdercoat parts. All this can be done along the way. I'm no stranger to a project on here and don't mind getting my hands dirty.

The question I ask myself.

Petrol Blue 182 mint running 280bhp or Megane R26 F1

The car I'd be doing the conversion to below


PBShoot 013 by Ricard o1, on Flickr

[The new Bill J]

Andy - What mpg can you get out of the Migranes? I've heard 30 on a motorway run.

One thing putting me off of them is the mpg. Not that it's so bad on the migranes, but that the Clios are so good!

I think I might FINALLY be coming round to that dodgy back end on the Migrane

Then it's a case of would I go for a cheap, bargain basement 225, or spunk my life savings on an all singing R26? If I get a bargain basement 225 and don't like it, I could always chuck the engine in a Clio

[Ricardo]

Bill, MPG wise I'm pretty sure you'll never beat the Clio (especially the phase 1) with the Megane

[The new Bill J]

Bill, MPG wise I'm pretty sure you'll never beat the Clio (especially the phase 1) with the Megane

Oh I've no doubt the Migrane wouldn't do as well as a Clio on mpg, even though I still struggle to get over 35 mpg out of mine . I just wondered how well they'd do with a map tweek.

[Tutuur]

I do have a nice turbo for you though
Forged rods too

[dangerous dave]

So your ready for the power increase then, no added extras... The other way to look at it, you won't get your money back in the clio so you should stick with it..

Mummy's clio 182 is coming to and end with her so will soon be mine.. I'm also tempted to turbo charge.. I like the Meg's and was offered one cheap but the running costs, mpg put me off.. The clio has only just cost some propper money for the 1st time in 60k from new with a snapped mid box.. It also chucked a light on but that was all exhaust related, mums short journeys had filled the exhaust with water and it was shafted..

I think the clio can handle more power, yours sounds like its ready...

Are you ready

[andybond]

Andy - What mpg can you get out of the Migranes? I've heard 30 on a motorway run.

One thing putting me off of them is the mpg. Not that it's so bad on the migranes, but that the Clios are so good!

I think I might FINALLY be coming round to that dodgy back end on the Migrane

Then it's a case of would I go for a cheap, bargain basement 225, or spunk my life savings on an all singing R26? If I get a bargain basement 225 and don't like it, I could always chuck the engine in a Clio

If you can afford the r26 get it. The LSD changes the car. There are also other hidden suspension tricks and tweaks.

MPG wise , when mine was standard I got around 30mpg on the motorway and 26 round town.

Map 1 increased it to 32 and 28 ish

Map 2 increased again to around 36mpg and 29ish mpg when around town.

I can drop the mpg to mid teens on trackdays , but I suspect MPG isnt your primary concern there ..

[R5MJH]

come on rich make ya mind up we are all waiting for your decision matey id do the clio personally but thats me pmsl

[TNT ANDY]

Meggy

[The new Bill J]

If you can afford the r26 get it. The LSD changes the car. There are also other hidden suspension tricks and tweaks.

Thanks for the reply. I could live with that fuel consumption. My Evo did 17mpg driving like a granny

I don't really want to be spending £5k+ to get an R26, when I can get a 'normal' 225 for a few £k. I could stick a diff' in it as and when if I want. It would be an every day car, not something that I'm likely to test to it's limits. Hmmm, I dunno - I might just stick with the Clio

Sorry for barging in Rickay

[andybond]

Thanks for the reply. I could live with that fuel consumption. My Evo did 17mpg driving like a granny

I don't really want to be spending £5k+ to get an R26, when I can get a 'normal' 225 for a few £k. I could stick a diff' in it as and when if I want. It would be an every day car, not something that I'm likely to test to it's limits. Hmmm, I dunno - I might just stick with the Clio

Sorry for barging in Rickay

The box is around £500. Lots of other tweaks. Mr Briggs was suitably impressed with a r26 over a 225. Not that a 225 is a bad car.

[Moggy]

hhmmmmm

well.... I'm looking at a 172 for a bit of a fun car.... that said I've had my megane 10... OMG 10 years in April

its one of the first!

and

I love it!

i did look back in 2005 at getting a trophy, but at the time, I kept mine...

Mine has been back to the motherland far too many times... over there on their fuel sitting at 80 (honest) she'll do mid 30's, but doing 70.... its low 30's! guess they are gear'd for french motorways!!

around town its 20ish... I do 3 miles to work and 3 miles home and I get 23mpg.

weekend before xmas I went with a few mates for a play on the finest welsh roads there are.... I went in the megane *doh*, my mate in his 330ci msport and a mk5 golf gti

and my 2 mates are now looking at 225/230's! I did 27mpg the golf did 23 and the bmw you dont' want to know.... I wasn't driving like Billy, as I was in the front and they had to keep up!!!! and a few times i was waiting

I had mine re-mapped when it was 12months old.... well I had a contact back in in dieppe, who sent me a 'map' and canclip uploaded it in the workshop.... and it made a difference! but.... its been in 2 stealerships since and I have a feeling they've done a sneaky 'update' that you don't get told about as it doesn't feel how it did... either that or i'm finally getting us'd to it!!!!!

I've had ds2500 pads in... but they really killed the std discs! and for day use i'm back on genuine Brembo pads and discs, plus they took bloody ages to warm up!!! i guess for track use they are a must! as when warm your head will go through the window!!!!

same as if you're doing track days I guess a diff will be needed..... but i've not driven one... so can't comment really

what would I change..... the boot drips water down your neck when you open it.... the std seats are a little too high... recaro's fix that i'm told...

people say the electronic steering can be vague... but with decent tyres i find it i get the same feedback the v6 gave me... so thats prob vague

tyres are a must... I've had a few sets.. std conti's, that lasted 6k!!!! 2 sets of goodyear eagle f1... avons (****) and now i'm on michelin ps3 and they are amazing!!!!!

i'm still on std filter and exhaust.. and they'll be next but I'm Welsh and tight so the exhaust needs to fall off before I'll change it!!! well its lasted 10 years so far!!!


but..... i'd park it in the garage for a sorted 172 cup!!!! but i'm not sure the 172 would cut it with the wife, dogs and trips to france

hope that confuses you even more

Moggs

[andybond]

what would I change..... the boot drips water down your neck when you open it.... the std seats are a little too high... recaro's fix that i'm told...

Easy fix. Small length of electricians tape across the place where the metal meets the plastic lip.

tyres are a must... I've had a few sets.. std conti's, that lasted 6k!!!! 2 sets of goodyear eagle f1... avons (****) and now i'm on michelin ps3 and they are amazing!!!!!

True. They changed to Michelin ps2 as OEM ps2 are still available, I rate them over the ps3. Personal choice.

In reference to the seats, the recaros are better than the 225 seats but they are not much lower. People often mod them and it typically costs £100. Will feel more like the r26r then

[Moggy]

oh.... and incase you wondered whey I didn't comment on cars newer than the trophy... ie 230 or r26....

i don't like the look of the facelift ones!!!!!!!

[andybond]

oh.... and incase you wondered whey I didn't comment on cars newer than the trophy... ie 230 or r26....

i don't like the look of the facelift ones!!!!!!!

Get some new glasses on old man

[Andrew Cooke]

Moggy, are you sure they were DS2500? I've never noticed the need to warm mine, either in the 5, or Twingo with 172 brakes.

[Scoff]

Were you also high rev'ing though?

I'm certainly not questioning Paul @ RST's knowledge or experience, nor am I disagreeing per se with any points made; it's a good discussion (for a nice change ). Just I personally don't subscribe to torque being the only factor associated to rod failures, hence highlighting other possibilities (imho) as to how/why they fail.

They only failed when I started to push boost Mart. For me that makes RPM less of a factor.

But, the truth is we don't know for sure what kills them. It's just my 2p

[andybond]

They only failed when I started to push boost Mart. For me that makes RPM less of a factor.

But, the truth is we don't know for sure what kills them. It's just my 2p

Scoff , dont know or didnt investigate ? Please dont take that the wrong way. Was it simply a case of not looking and just forging ?

Genuine interest. I want to find out what I can do to run more power ( with out forging ) and remove its limitations.

Its just too much of an unknown for me to accept.