Good ship rtoc

[Tony Walker]

i think the shop would do best from the group buys, shop maybe buys a few extra units on top of the organised group buy then puts a couple of pounds on top of the discounted price. Maybe we need someone to organise group buys more often? even day to day through my work renault offer money back on certain amounts of oil filters and things ordered, maybe a stock of service kits would be an idea, spark plugs are silly prices for good quality items.

It's finding people with the time and enthusiasm to make it work mate.

[car.crash]

Maybe drop him a pm or point him here and see what he makes of it? I should be seeing him tomorrow so I shall mention it

[Scoff]

In any case, the lynchpin of this club is the website, if it went down due to lack of maintenance or lack of payment to the hosting company etc then we're fcked. If we lost all other club facilities/committee members (good as they are), it's imperative the website is the last thing to fail. Is there anyone in charge of safe-guarding that?

Not as such Trev but as long as we're operating the current site code I'll do whatever it takes to keep it going. I think whichever developer or company takes up the role of creating a modern RTOC site will need to provide long term support for it also. This site is 5 years old already, a long time in the WWW and many more modern options are available.

[Ian S]

Who creates the Forums for Cliosport & such like? Can we not just get a new on like that made & fill in the gaps with some copy & paste??

Sadly no. We tried that, more or less. Do Cliosport still use the older vB like we do? We really want the newer version it seems. To go for a blank version would be just that, not this site but just a blank bulletin board. It takes a fair bit of development to get a site to look like this or the other big sites. Not to mention work like this site does, some of which is Scoffs customising of the source code and that will not translate to a new version, we tried that.

THEN there's the things like the live window and much else.

Then there's the data, files, etc, which are not the issue as far as I can tell. Apart from the database being damaged during the migration a year ago leading to the missing photo albums and photos going to the wrongs places. That still needs to be repaired. And the 800 or so articles photos point to old/rtoc.org which does not exist at the moment.

[Mart]

Would be great to see more group buys, and/or a re-run (or copies) of old parts; eg, the 32 dis carb's or Steve's dial kits, etc.

Dale was looking into Valeo parts the other week, so good group buy potential there

[Big Steve - Raider]

If we start with a blank canvas, would there be more people willing to tart it up to a new. Website?

I can see that developers would shy away from trying to wrestle our site into something new, but if we ask them to build a totally new one then maybe there would be more takers??

[Scoff]

If we start with a blank canvas, would there be more people willing to tart it up to a new. Website?

I can see that developers would shy away from trying to wrestle our site into something new, but if we ask them to build a totally new one then maybe there would be more takers??

The problem is steve that we have 5 years of posts, articles and files in the databases so anything new will need to be vBulletin based if we're to stand a chance of importing the posts and PM system. Then even the modern vBulletin doesn't wont have the articles, files, live, wizard, contacts or tech sections since they're custom. My gut feeling is that a modern vBuletin will disapoint a lot of people, it'll be a basic forum compared to what we're used to. It'll be like trading in a 5yr old top of the range 5 series for a new base model fiesta. There's pros and cons to each.

[Ian S]

If we start with a blank canvas

Yes that's right.

And to that end I bought version 4 and Gordon tried to install and work on it but it didn't really happen on the old Windows server. Then we moved to this LAMP server and paid Global Gold to get it working, under Gordons orchestration, but that didn't happen either. I recently had someone look into it and looked like they started, stopped and partly deleted it.

But it was working on that man's servers and it was my intention to do just as you suggest as soon as he'd secured the server and made available access for people to go and start working on it. Hugely frustratingly, he just stopped and has kept me waiting again for these months.

I remain optimistic that Scoffs PHP pages can be retained. Until demonstrated otherwise.

Top of the list was trying to fix the album photos. I met my sisters previous ex in Sainsburys, he's now a big earning self employed programmer and said he could easily do anything with an SQL database. Remains to be seen but I intended to ask him first once the server side stuff was done.

[Haz]

whats wrong with the website? works fine as it is so why start fresh? surely making it new isn't always better, take fb for example, when i was on there i got fed up of having to re learn things that i was comfortible with when they change it to 'improve' it.

regards the club shop, i've just looked. there's tickets and dial kits. is that it? what happened to the usual merchandise like t shirts, key rings etc? do people still buy these? whats actually involved in running the shop as i get the impression that bulk buys are usually organised by an induvidual who bothers to get some interest?
i've noticed a few threads recently with people actually making an effort and starting to re-create things that are no longer availible, like the under bonnet sticker set. surely these are the items that should be there? could that person, sorry i forget who it was, not just offer these at the bulk price but make it only availible through the shop? i realise it could only be cheaper items to start with.
i'd be more than happy to start organising getting items that aren't availible re made, obviously minor differences would have to be done for copyrights.
i know a local sticker company that made replica series1 rs side decals, changing just one dot to a triangle. or would the oe folks only want the proper oe items?
there's a fabrication place that could make the suspension top hats, replicate jacking points when they run out, what about stocking the rear bumper mounts that ashy supplies?
what about header tanks that shakal supplies?
i could speak to carpet maufacturer's to get boot carpets remade?
what about the ph1 grilles and bumpers that are re created?
surely if all these items are supplied to the shop to be bought there at the same price and re stocked by mentioned people, even if the people offer to stock the shop with say 5 and the shop keeper deal direct with them?

or are all these items best being left to the induviduals to sort out?

[Ian S]

Probably other people could better answer these shop questions and suggestions, but I did 'speak to' Shakal and we couldn't reach an agreement over price and method of restocking. He wants to make his profit, like everyone does. As best as I can recall, by the time we pay for delivery, PayPal and postage we might charge more than he does so people may as well go to him.

The stickers thing has been rolling of years and I don't know why those involved couldn't make it happen and get some in the shop. Maybe it's lack of time and motivation to do it. I put quite a bit of time, effort and resolve into getting the Orange dials from Steve's group buy into further production and into the shop, even though Steve had already done most of the work in getting them made to begin with. I nearly gave up on it.

Getting the special head bolts costed, specified, made, delivered and advertised and into the shop took a couple of days work. Who's got time for that?

There's the issue of storage. Lee can't store bumpers, or loads of large stuff. I expect most people couldn't.

We discussed gaskets and stuff and decided it was better for members to just get them directly from GSF.

With the sills, Mike had ordered some so he had that covered and I stopped being interested in pushing to get those in the shop.

It worked well with Lee doing it as his Mrs runs a full time on-line shop and they have deliveries and collections all the time. That's a big problem if someone is not available all the time for deliveries and collections.

[dangerous dave]

i dont know how you guys put this stuff into words without offending people, i think alot of group buys are sh1t.. they involve people trying to make a quick ££ and we all aren't stupid and walk on.. you can often google a better price..

some are really good and members go way beyond the call of duty to sort out everyone else when you could just have a part made or buy 1 item and be done with it..

i do however like it when the club steps in and feel safer that we're all getting a good deal..

[Haz]

i'll have a chat with clee about the basics. storage is not really and issue. if someone has good condition/new rare items then things would be easier to replicate and i would assume members would be willing to loan them, but maybe thats why things havent gone ahead in the past.
the side decals for example, i could have a set scanned, slightly modified and have a set in every oe colour in stock, and any other colour scheme in a few days, same for rear screen 'raider', rtoc large or small, cup car sets etc to get the ball rolling.
rather than side tracking the thread i may just start another thread regards all this once clee's got back to me

[dangerous dave]

the whole stickers thing does me in, was it Raj getting them made and selling them at £90 for something worth no more than £40.. he wouldn't do a group buy as he was making a load of profit.. he was in it to win it, which is fair enough but its a shame he didn't want to get a propper deal going.. rikki did them at 60 and in a group went down to 40..

that other chap had the phase 1's made didn't he? got his and then thats the end of it, which again is fair, but its a shame they didn't leave a contact number for the club so we could rattle off a batch of 30 for members a £40 a pop..

this stuff can be done, has been done but it all seems black market hush hush..

[Bigfoot]

In the past I have tried saying about group buys going into the club shop and what items I can get from work without much interest as more than likely due to size. I have sorted out with Mike brake compensators and valeo rads. And once the local rep is back from Valeo I will chase up on valeo clutches which I can get hold of 15+ next day without any problem so they say and trying to get them to sort out the yellow fog lights, I have sorted out pearl engine mounts to the club shop (no longer available) but other makes can source, gasket sets, fuel pumps and service kits, plus many of other items as and when I get asked for them. The company website is in its next stage of development which will then mean I can put special pricing for all items which will be available for all people within the club and with enough interest I could persuade the company to stock more of these items before they run out from the suppliers so easily available next day at competitive pricing. This is what im hoping to do for this club within this year, hopefully with feedback a sticker supplier which I keep chasing them up on, dont want to pay out money upfront on something they might not be able to do so have to wait till they get time for it

[Haz]

i dont know how you guys put this stuff into words without offending people, i think alot of group buys are sh1t.. they involve people trying to make a quick ££ and we all aren't stupid and walk on.. you can often google a better price..

some are really good and members go way beyond the call of duty to sort out everyone else when you could just have a part made or buy 1 item and be done with it..

i do however like it when the club steps in and feel safer that we're all getting a good deal..

so should the shop just stock tickets for events and leave the traders/induviduals to deal with organising replenishing things that are no longer availible? i think some of the bulk buys probably arent worth the club getting involved with but if there are items that are exclusive to club members, that cant be bought elsewhere or too costly to have just one bespoke item made, surely thats a good thing?
i've tried to arrange bulk buys in the past, but trying to get 10 members to pay up front for a product that they cant see never happens. if the club funds, if approved by the committee, are used to get the ball rolling to get a batch made then there's more chance of things actually materialising?

i'll start another thread, as this one is going off topic

[Haz]

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...810#post289810

[Shane P]

I would just like to say that I myself am greatful for all the 'behind the scenes' work that goes on and i hope that we can all work through this unsettling time. I dont personally think that there is anything wrong with the website, its fast and has everything i need plus the 'Live' page is simply fantastic !

Is there anyway that Mike could become the club shop?, his primary outlet being what he already does to the general public and his secondary outlet being us ? Obviously making it worth his while plus supplying the club directly with a lot more parts that he already has storage for ?

I must say though it was nice on the old website where you could just click a button or two and see all the people registered in your local area :-)

Dont shoot me, its only an observation

[Ian S]

I must say though it was nice on the old website where you could just click a button or two and see all the people registered in your local area :-)

We know and have lamented their loss since the old site was deleted in June 2008.

There was not time for Scoff to replicate all of that on this one. Though you can do a members search on location: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/memberlist.php?do=search

[Trevhib]

Those saying that the website is fine the way it is, there are so many reasons why sticking with an out-dated, unsupported, static-featured website is an extremely bad idea.

And the longer it goes, the worse it is. In the I.T. world, if you don't keep up, eventually you fall over and can't get back up. Waiting until that point to do something about it is not clever. I know this as I worked in the industry. When you see that the club can't even sort out basic issues with the site you know there's a problem.

Thankfully, Ian is continuing to try his best to secure some sort of resolution. I would be in favour of having a bog standard site that we were in control of and that was supported, rather than trying to hold onto all the custom/legacy stuff. As membership reduces, we may be forced into that anyway. Members would get used to it and if we could retain the articles data/pics then that's would be the main thing IMO.

[Trevhib]

I slightly disagree Iv seen lots of thanks but it must be wiped out by the bad comments I just think we all should be a little less defensive at peoples comments as that is all they are just comments i don't pay £25 for a bad vibe and moans I have Facebook for listening to people's moans and groans and that's free.. I joined for like minded men and woman with coman interests

Well I did say virtually thankless. You hit the nail on the head, there is both negative and positive feedback from members but the former can often far outweigh the latter. That shouldn't necessarily be a problem but unfortunately tact is not something that the RTOC membership is known for.

If you think letting poorly communicated negative comments wash off your back when you've bust your balls to get something right is so easy, then have a crack at one of the committee positions.

Also, a membership fee doesn't somehow guarantee you a moan-free environment, in fact it usually ensures the opposite I'm afraid. That's the relationship between life and money.

And just because most here have Renault Turbo's (i.e. the common ground), doesn't mean we're all like-minded. Our interests beyond cars will be wide-ranging.

[Scoff]

Those saying that the website is fine the way it is, there are so many reasons why sticking with an out-dated, unsupported, static-featured website is an extremely bad idea.

And the longer it goes, the worse it is. In the I.T. world, if you don't keep up, eventually you fall over and can't get back up. Waiting until that point to do something about it is not clever. I know this as I worked in the industry. When you see that the club can't even sort out basic issues with the site you know there's a problem.

Thankfully, Ian is continuing to try his best to secure some sort of resolution. I would be in favour of having a bog standard site that we were in control of and that was supported, rather than trying to hold onto all the custom/legacy stuff. As membership reduces, we may be forced into that anyway. Members would get used to it and if we could retain the articles data/pics then that's would be the main thing IMO.

We can upgrade at any time Trev. The site, or forum at least is support. It's vBulletin, so upgrading to V4.x brings it up to date (see Cliosport, etc.).

We would loose the custom pages though. So until we're aproaching a time where the latest browsers no longer support XHTML 1.0 an upgrade seems like a pointless operation. Sure, we'd have a modern front end, but we'd loose profile pages, files, wizard, contacts, the committee's area rep functions, the live page, the admin pages which control the banners, home page and other functions and possibly our membership subscription system. It's a lot to chuck away.

[BILLY-R5GTT]

HAZ has the right idea's and is full of enthusiasm, this is the sort of people we need looking into things to get the ball rolling on sale items.

I would quite gladly put some time into research for replicating items if it was helping out the club.

[andybond]

We can upgrade at any time Trev. The site, or forum at least is support. It's vBulletin, so upgrading to V4.x brings it up to date (see Cliosport, etc.).

We would loose the custom pages though. So until we're aproaching a time where the latest browsers no longer support XHTML 1.0 an upgrade seems like a pointless operation. Sure, we'd have a modern front end, but we'd loose profile pages, files, wizard, contacts, the committee's area rep functions, the live page, the admin pages which control the banners, home page and other functions and possibly our membership subscription system. It's a lot to chuck away.

But nothing is unsurmountable ? I appreciate that these things would be lost but can be added in again ?

There are banner manager plugins , profile plugins , rep thingies , all free with the Vbulletin license.

Personally, I would hang on to version 5 ( it must be due out soon as they have stopped releasing updates on the 4.x version ) and then restart.

We can then use standard plugins, which with the greatest of respect Chris dont need you to update and larry from down the pub can do.

[phase i 16 v turbo]

HAZ has the right idea's and is full of enthusiasm, this is the sort of people we need looking into things to get the ball rolling on sale items.

I would quite gladly put some time into research for replicating items if it was helping out the club.

I found replicating items not to be the problem, it was the costs and getting people to pay.

[BILLY-R5GTT]

I found replicating items not to be the problem, it was the costs and getting people to pay.

Are there any examples of this?

Just off the subject a little I spoke to Renault earlier about the OE side decals and they can still get them for all colour of GTT's and they are only £175 for a full set both sides.

How much are people expecting to pay for replica's? I thought people were only trying to get them made up because Renault had stopped producing them

[steer from the rear]

Could you imagine a club full of every repair part for a gt......all in one place not GSF for this, eBay for that, CGB for this ect

Service parts
Repair parts
Genuine parts
Refurbished parts
A complete gtturbo in bits

[Tony Walker]

Would it be expensive to run both types of websites maybe people could transfer all there things over to the new site saving the labour time of one person doing it? Then when the other site is comprehensive enough close the original?

[BILLY-R5GTT]

Could you imagine a club full of every repair part for a gt......all in one place not GSF for this, eBay for that, CGB for this ect

Service parts
Repair parts
Genuine parts
Refurbished parts
A complete gtturbo in bits

That would be good

[dangerous dave]

Could you imagine a club full of every repair part for a gt......all in one place not GSF for this, eBay for that, CGB for this ect

Service parts
Repair parts
Genuine parts
Refurbished parts
A complete gtturbo in bits

thats where i think you'll find the club not trying to step on peoples toes.. we have that available, mike pretty much has it all and has yards, barns etc full of cars that we all buy parts from, he builds up and sells or sells as projects.. it all costs money and for that to be available to us, the club needs to keep him and his bills paid for..

the club could try and take over but it would be our loss in the end as no one else its stopping this cars hitting the crusher, remove mike and cgb etc and all the oe second hand parts are going going gone..

if mike ran the shop like his own site and it was just easier for us to order on rtoc and he ships it, thats a win..

we need the shop for bigger deals and group buys that can sell for minimal profit..

[rs250nut]

Are there any examples of this?

Just off the subject a little I spoke to Renault earlier about the OE side decals and they can still get them for all colour of GTT's and they are only £175 for a full set both sides.

How much are people expecting to pay for replica's? I thought people were only trying to get them made up because Renault had stopped producing them

As what mike said, read it again. Getting people to pay for it, Renault pikeys dont like paying proper money

[BILLY-R5GTT]

As what mike said, read it again. Getting people to pay for it, Renault pikeys dont like paying proper money

Surely if you can afford to insure a GTT you can spend money on it... Or then again maybe its the opposite because it takes up all your money been there myself, not the best place to be

[Nottswoody]

Surely if you can afford to insure a GTT you can spend money on it... Or then again maybe its the opposite because it takes up all your money been there myself, not the best place to be

I'm hoping next year I can get classic insurance or the limited milage thing.. Paid nearly £700 this year hoping to get it alot less this year

[phase i 16 v turbo]

Are there any examples of this?

Just off the subject a little I spoke to Renault earlier about the OE side decals and they can still get them for all colour of GTT's and they are only £175 for a full set both sides.

No they don't, I stock all the ones available and they aren't for all colours and some aren't the same as the first batch when the cars were made, you need to check things yourself don't believe what Renault telll you. I had too order all to find out which ones are actually still available.

£173.73 + vat £208, Chris was willing to get a guy buy going but I don't think there was many takers.

[djinuk]

Why not allow mike to run the club shop, and push a larger discount onto club members, whilst at the same time we all promote mike/the club shop, to non members who dont recieve the same level as discount.

That way theres somthing in it for us all.

Stickers along the lines of..

'maintained by mikes RTOC club shop'

[Ashy]

***********
Thread moved to club talk so its not open to non members
***********

[Tony Walker]

£173.73 + vat £208, Chris was willing to get a guy buy going but I don't think there was many takers.

I wouldnt of thought there would be much interest in a "guy buy" at those prices lol

[Mart]

Rather than 'passing the buck' so to speak, has Mike actually been asked if he'd like to run the club shop?

The poor guy might be feeling a bit pressurised with the 'Mike FTW' esque comments about him running the shop, if he doesn't actually want to take it on

FWIW, he gets my vote though

[phase i 16 v turbo]

I wouldnt of thought there would be much interest in a "guy buy" at those prices lol

I should have been clearer.

£173.73 + vat £208 RRP,

Chris was willing to get a guy buy going with a discount on that price but I don't think there was many takers.

[Tony Walker]

Wasn't about the price sorry Mike the "guy buy" made me laugh.

[phase i 16 v turbo]

Wasn't about the price sorry Mike the "guy buy" made me laugh.

Been a long week sorry, should say group buy.

[BILLY-R5GTT]

No they don't, I stock all the ones available and they aren't for all colours and some aren't the same as the first batch when the cars were made, you need to check things yourself don't believe what Renault telll you. I had too order all to find out which ones are actually still available.

£173.73 + vat £208, Chris was willing to get a guy buy going but I don't think there was many takers.

I am just going off what Lookers Renault Stockport told me, they said they can do all colours.

So how different are they? Is there a big difference?

I could do with getting hold of some genuine old stock and getting them copied like most of us would like to do

[Trevhib]

We can upgrade at any time Trev. The site, or forum at least is support. It's vBulletin, so upgrading to V4.x brings it up to date (see Cliosport, etc.).

We would loose the custom pages though. So until we're aproaching a time where the latest browsers no longer support XHTML 1.0 an upgrade seems like a pointless operation. Sure, we'd have a modern front end, but we'd loose profile pages, files, wizard, contacts, the committee's area rep functions, the live page, the admin pages which control the banners, home page and other functions and possibly our membership subscription system. It's a lot to chuck away.

Hi Chris.

No worries. It's not your fault but it seems difficult to grasp exactly how the whole thing hangs together. I think the details that exist in between what Ian is saying and what you are saying above are such that it would take a long time for you guys to convey the exact situation.

Like what works on which platform, what skills are needed to support which parts of the current site, what we'd lose if we migrated, what can/can't be replicated on the other side, what versions of the database exist on which servers, who has access to them, what can be salvaged and what can't; it's like a giant bird's nest from the casual observer's point of view and the members are the eggs



What we want is a site that can be easily supported/maintained if the current team were to suddenly walk away.

[phase i 16 v turbo]

I am just going off what Lookers Renault Stockport told me, they said they can do all colours.

So how different are they? Is there a big difference?

I could do with getting hold of some genuine old stock and getting them copied like most of us would like to do

Agreed but you have to out lay nearly £600 to get them in to copy

[Bigfoot]

Or cut up a car and send them into the company and see if they can replicate it

[Scoff]

Hi Chris.

No worries. It's not your fault but it seems difficult to grasp exactly how the whole thing hangs together. I think the details that exist in between what Ian is saying and what you are saying above are such that it would take a long time for you guys to convey the exact situation.

Like what works on which platform, what skills are needed to support which parts of the current site, what we'd lose if we migrated, what can/can't be replicated on the other side, what versions of the database exist on which servers, who has access to them, what can be salvaged and what can't; it's like a giant bird's nest from the casual observer's point of view and the members are the eggs



What we want is a site that can be easily supported/maintained if the current team were to suddenly walk away.

Exactly, the club can't afford to rely on one or even 2 people to keep the site together.

We're in a much better place now than we were with the old site. The old site was 100% custom. At least now if the worst came to the worst and this site could no longer run then the forum database can be installed in a bog standard version of vBulletin and it'll work away without loss of membership information or posts.

Maybe a new tact would be to have an individual or company install version 5 when it's released and have them find modern plugins that do the jobs of the current custom stuff. The challenge there will be finding applications that give us the control people want. When I wrote this site the specification was very exact, there were no plugins that came close to what we wanted and what we had been used to with the old site. I suspect these days there would not be as much concern with the exact specification. There are less active CM to please

[Ian S]

When you have a look around internet and some of the other vB, or other, forums then come back to this one, you realise how much better off we are.

[James_Surridge G1 5 GTT]

Maybe too many committee personal opinions instead of traditional views of the club?
Maybe the status of committee members has gone to some heads?
Maybe majority of committee prefers track days so appears biased although does get better turn outs?
Maybe not many members can compete at pod now the goal posts keep getting moved and 12's are no longer deemed quick.
Maybe not many members want to take their mint oe, low mileage, 1 owner cars on trackdays?

Maybe we're just gettin old and grumpy?

[James_Surridge G1 5 GTT]

i'd personally say it's down to a few factors:

as has been touched on earlier, most of us are getting on- as are our cars.

the number of 5's has rapidly decreased in the last 10years- we are now a smallish club, rather than a medium sized club.

the cost of fuel has really put a dampener on just travelling across most of the country to meet up with a few mates for an evening. - it does go on, but it certainly used to be alot more widespread.

if people think that an event isnt going to be well attended, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, as people can't be bothered to travel to stand on their own somewhere.

events seem to need a 'draw' - back in the day at the Pod it was GT Tunings car, then it was Ktec's car, then glen tuffnell, then DD autosports, then Mike Spencer. every time people knew they were going they would turn up. - now its Scoff or Glenn pulling the crowds, be it at a rolling road day or drag strip. - i can guarantee scoff's RR day will be very well attended.
as has been mentioned before, the goalposts have been moved along way from what the average gtt owner can afford, so power tussles dont seem to occur now. - which was another reason for people to go to 'competitive' events.

i'm sure i could come up with other reasons off the top of my head, but i'll clear off back into the 'website editor' corner.

[James_Surridge G1 5 GTT]

It is mate, but you know all to well where this thread will end up after posting "A simple question" on the open forum. Some things never change and threads like this, no matter how genuine the reasons are for posting, always end up making the situation worse.

A number of CM's have stood down, thats correct.

Miller - was a missive driving force behind the Committee for a number of years but he has other priorities now and can't give the time required.
STU used to push "All" events and attend them sort out tickets etc etc and has been a big miss since standing down.
Dawn - although it wasn't her role gave up huge amounts of time to work behind the scenes and get the finer detail of organising events sorted. She also helped to pull the CM's together and keep us on the right path when we lost our way.
Clee - Ran the shop single handed and thats not a task to be underestimated.
Lomo - was making good progress with the Area Reps.
Blunty - Was making good progress picking up from where STU left off.

Steve - Sorts out ND, and did a very good job and then gets a a load of unnecessary grief, over the show and shine event, making him think twice about bothering the next time.

So with those CM's standing down or moving to a non-active roll we are going through a difficult period but it doesn't have to mean the end of the RTOC.

Life goes on, RTOC will roll on regardless, perhaps some new blood will step forward and offer help not criticism?

At the end of the day, we are all 10+ years older than we were in the good old days, that means mortgages + wives + more responsible positions at work + children = Less time for the RTOC.

I wish I was still 20 years old I'd be up to my elbows in it but I'm not and I can't.

[James_Surridge G1 5 GTT]

If new blood is required, maybe a thread should be started asking if anyone's interested, which roles are available/required, etc?

If you don't ask (or if members aren't aware), you don't get

No doubt that it is a thankless task, but one that's certainly (or at least should be) appreciated by all members.

I certainly recall the Accounts would be distributed online, this was said at National day.

Did we need an AGM at national? We did not have 1 and with regards fresh blood that would have been the opportunity to air new positions movement of CM's etc as now its all happened and we learn of it later