Project 12 Seconds!!

[GTphil]

Right took it out a few times this weekend and I can't see anywhere else where the oil is coming from at all, so it must be the headgasket. Can't understand what's happened tho.

one thing that did come to mind was after I snapped a headbolt I was so annoyed I just walked off and left it alone and forgot I left the head with the two middle bolts tourqed and the others just tight, for 24 hrs or so. Do you think this could have bananad the head at all. It was stone cold.

I have tried to google if alloy can warp when cold but can't seem to find anything on it.

other than that either it's detted and done the gasket or the heads lifted.

[GTphil]

So after much further investigation said oil fountain appears to be coming from the dipstick, I wrapped a clean rag around the top, took it for a quick boost and the inside of the rag was covered in oil with non on the outside.

Pretty sure the head gasket is fine, runs well 120/125 psi across all cylinders on a cold comp test with WOT.

Headbolts are fine, 80nm's

Here are the plugs

Pot 1 (flywheel end)


pot2


pot3


pot4


Doesn't appear to be any signs of det, maybe slightly on pot2 as I have had some durin setting up but only for a nano second as I have been using a steth to listen. It's the slight speckled dots on the white part of the plug that make me think it's has some slight det, non on any of the other pots. when the headgaskets go it usually happens on the water jacket on pot two. As we know the two inner cylinders run slightly leaner than the outer two.

Non at all at WOT when giving it the lead foot treatment.

I need to re-seal the sump up and get the oil level correct and maybe crimp the dipstick tube or get a new rubber seal if that's possible?

I would have thought it would be chucking it out of the breather system if the sump was pressurising under boost but the catch tank is empty, might start filling up once the dipstick tube seals

[Nad-5GTT]

Happy days

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Pinch the dipstick tube alittle at the top mate, that'll grip the dipstick alot better and stop it being forced out when on boost

[Tutuur]

Better to upgrade the engine breather to prevent pressure in the bottom end

[GTphil]

The oil level is slightly over the max mark, I have fitted a replacement piston new liner and new rings, the engine has only done 350 miles or so, most of that has been hard miles. I would have thought the rings would have bedded in by now.

On previous engines it's always been oil out of the breathers first and as I said the catch tank is empty?

The rubber grommet on the dip stick has seen better days. I have never had it pop out before like this, even when i had so much blow by it was chuffing out 500ml (bottle of coke) in just 1 quater mile, from the breather system.

I have seen some c1j's with an extra breather on the front of the block. These were running daft boost tho, in some cases 30psi or more

[Red October]

My dipstick was popping out slightly at 20psi and oil slick diagnosis took forever lke yours phil identical. Then I started to get more and more pressure In the sump up to 80psi eventually she started blowing smoke, filled a cossie catch tank and stripped it down. 3 cracked pistons from extreme det (ran too much boost at blyton) between the tops and the rings I could slide pieces out, see my resto thread.

Hop you get it sorted pal these niggley problems are annoying after a while.

[GTphil]

Well.........that's my 200hp bit of fun over, just broke it

Private road at 135+

Suspect bottom end, blowing blue smoke out of the breathers and it sounds like a bag of bones.

No over heating no mixing of oil and coolant, and the oil pressure is still over 40psi, I think a piston has picked up on a liner or worse

It was fun while it lasted!

[B18ftMOJO5]

Sorry to hear that Phil was looking forward to seeing your car at the go karting day out. .i havent been over a 100 in mine yet. Hope you get it sorted soon pal.

[Nad-5GTT]

No way dude, really sorry to hear this . Do you know the cause yet.

[GTphil]

Something has just failed I think, tune was fine aside from the oil pressure issues when I first smelt the smoke I thought the turbo had let go.

Upon inspection the turbo seems fine.

It seems be running on three on start up and I can hear a lack of compression on one cylinder.

I think either a piston has picked up on a liner or a ringland has give up.

Time to get oily again

[Nad-5GTT]

I don't know how you can get so motivated right away. If that was my car I'd have to lock it away for at least 3 months.

[GTphil]

I don't know how you can get so motivated right away. If that was my car I'd have to lock it away for at least 3 months.

That's probably what I will do!

[royz]

sorry to hear that phil. being covered in oil most of the time is one of the conditions of owning a 5. hope its a easy fix

[B18ftMOJO5]

dont knw if its any use haz has a c1j bottom end going spare. for free

[GTphil]

dont knw if its any use haz has a c1j bottom end going spare. for free

If the head isn't lunched it may well be an option

[Bealo]

Great thread and sorry to hear about your engine mishap.

I hope you get it fixed quickly and get the 12 sec quater soon.

[ranj]

Hi Phil, sorry to hear this mate. Another thing that maybe you should consider is the Renix Unit, when I was tuning mine I did my pistons in twice ! Fuelling was fine but it kept detting at WOT high up the rev range so when I put it on the rollers next time, I tried retarding the ignition timing by moving the TDC sensor and it was having no effect so we concluded that the Renix Unit was faulty - possibly a leaky diaphragm ?

Putting a secondhand Renix unit on I was able to have a effect on the Det by adjusting the TDC. May not be your problem but just a thought mate.

[GTphil]

Cheers Ranj/Bealo/royz, will give the a.e.i a good check over using the syringe method.

Finally stopped sulking and got about finding out what went wrong and why.

Didn't even bother comp testing it, the amount of blue smoke coming out of the breathers was phenomenal and it sounded like a bag of bones.

Pulled the plugs out and pot 4 was silver and covered in molten metal

So off came the head to reveal this









That was fifth gear 22psi flat out 7k rpm for a good 2 mins.

What a fool.

The head looks salvageable thankfully.



Gave the old slag a wash and leather then rain halted play





On a positive note, I have been offered a running c1j FOC

Going for a look and hopefully will bring it back with me on Saturday.

It's a standard c1j with standard comp pistons.

Going to use my head 73.5mm and fit my 285 cam and followers. Time it upto 112 or 110 (still haven't decided)

Swap my paddle clutch and lightened flywheel over (may get the clutch re-pucked) and the flywheel faced.

Then see if I can manage not to melt any more pistons!!

As for why this happened i'm not 100% on, pretty sure detonation is the cause but there are no marks on the gasket at all and no marks on the head aside from where the bits of piston have stuck to it. the liner is also covered in melted piston.

Lord knows if the turbo bearings have been damaged my bet is they probably have, might strip it down for a look or might just wack it back on and see how it goes

[Markey Mark (BD)]

That piston has begun to melt mate

Could be various reason but one i'm thinking of is the temps in the cylinder were getting way too hot from either leaning out of inlet charge temps through the roof

[GTphil]

That piston has begun to melt mate

Could be various reason but one i'm thinking of is the temps in the cylinder were getting way too hot from either leaning out of inlet charge temps through the roof

Sounds about correct for that boost in Fifth for that long with a carb. I should really have known better

[Tutuur]

Guess that would've been the case, looks a bit like my piston. Also on cylinder one:



Shame this is a forged item in an f7r

[GTphil]

Indeed, could be worse i suppose, at least my piston was a cheap standard one. I always thought the flywheel end was pot 1?

Either way we have both mullered them properly, that's for sure.

Go hard..........and melt pistons!!

Or should that be, tune correct..... keep engine in one piece......

[Tutuur]

Probably the last bit

And you're right, flywheel side is pot 1, i misjudged your pic. Mine was nr.1 though

[GTphil]

Went and picked up a c1j today.

Big thanks to Mark (mk5gtt)


Pulled the standard cam out and the followers ready for my 285 and followers to go in.

Engine had been stood for a year or so, seems to turn over nice and freely and the oil we pulled out was in quite good nick. You can see it's done some miles as the honing marks on the liners are virtually gone. It was a good running lump so fingers crossed it should be ok.

Going to get it up on a stand next week and get about cleaning it up and swapping all my bits over.

Don't fancy another fiveless summer

[B18ftMOJO5]

thats great news Phil....hope your back on the rd soon pal

[GTphil]

Managed a good half days work on the five this week

Put the working bottom end up on the engine stand.



took the bumper and bonnet off ready to take out the lump with the melted piston



Pulled the lump out and stripped all the goodies from it
paddle clutch
cam/pully
followers
timing chain and tensioner

Also took the liners from the three other pots as they are still mint.

The cam seems to have gone unscathed so that's a bonus at least







I would love to give the lump a re-fresh but i'm flat broke and it's just not an option.

I'm not even going to take the sump off, was told the lump used to run good so will just clean it all up stick it in and hope for the best

Will be fitting the cam to the working bottom end and timing it up this weekend.

I then need to strip the valves out of the cylinder head on the pot where the piston melted, clean all the bits of melted piston off ( luckily it seems to come off easily) it isn't on any mating faces so as long as it's all clean including the inlet manifold and exhaust manifold then the head should be good to just re-use.

It's an unskimmed head with standard compression pistons so should be the standard comp ratio. cam is going to 112 degrees.

proper barn door engineering but with zero funds I don't have much choice

[Nad-5GTT]

When you do work on it you don't half work quick I do hope you have a bit of luck with this one, maybe ease off the 135mph 2mile runs for a while

[Trevhib]

Good work

How likely is it that there will be swarf that has gotten down into the engine/sump?

[GTphil]

very likely but I'm binning the damaged block anyway.

When i pulled the sump plug out it was silver on the inside

cam/pullys appear undamaged.

most of the melted piston will have gone straight into the sump and out through the exhaust valves i would have thought. I suppose i could get the block hot washed once stripped and keep it as a spare instead of just binning it. The sump will be scrap for sure.

[Trevhib]

Sorry Phil, I didn't read all of what you wrote properly I thought for a moment you were just going to whack it back in after replacing the piston/liner.

[GTphil]

When you do work on it you don't half work quick I do hope you have a bit of luck with this one, maybe ease off the 135mph 2mile runs for a while

Indeed

[GTphil]

I'm on with fitting and timing the cam.

What piston do i use to find TDC with a dti?

I have only ever done this with the head on.

[Markey Mark (BD)]

I'm on with fitting and timing the cam.

What piston do i use to find TDC with a dti?

I have only ever done this with the head on.

It will piston 1 mate

[GTphil]

Cheers Mark,

I gave up yesterday, whiskey and the F1 highlights were calling

So please feel free everyone to correct me or give me some hints and tips. Last time i dialled a cam in a used Scoffs method in the camshaft article.

This time obviously the head is off.

First of all i need to find as accurate a TDC as i can so i understand that there is a certain amount of dwell before the piston starts to go back down.

Do i take the reading off the dti when the piston stops rising then take it again as it starts to fall and use right in the middle of the two for TDC?

Once that's sorted i will fit the protractor and pointer, turn the engine to TDC using the dti. Adjust the protractor so the pointer is at 0 degrees.

Then measure the peak lift of the inlet valve on pot 1 using the same method as before, taking the protractor reading as the dti stops rising and again as it starts to fall and using the figure in the middle.

Take three readings and work out the average.

I thought i had it sussed three years ago when i first did it, yesterday when i started i couldn't remember any of it..........

Still unsure what figure to shoot for, its a 112 piper 285. Last engine was low comp with 4 degrees of retard. Shit low down but really picked its feet up after 5k rpm. Given the goal of a 12 second Q/M i feel i should retard it again but the compression will be much higher than my last engine and i can't help but wonder if 116 degrees will lose me to much lower down. I'm running a 60 trim T28.

compression will be standard

hmmmm what's everones opinion?

I'm thinking 112/114.......

[Markey Mark (BD)]

That sounds right about timing cam mate

With the cam timing figure it really does come down to how you want the engine to perform, in my old campus when I redid the engine I set it to 115deg with a T28 fitted and slightly lower comp. It was alittle less responsive low down but did shift once on boost. When I bought the engine it was standard comp and the cam set at 112deg

In my old tungy that was 112deg with standard comp and full T25, I never changed the cam timing in that only what was on the engine

I do know of cars that have had the 285 set as much as 116deg and as little as 108deg too, Bushys car when he did the 11.97 he had his cam set to 110deg

[tubbyG]

sounds like you know what your doing and are on the right track

I have a similar setup to yours but have timed my 285 to 109deg - I had full boost (21psi) by 4300rpm but have since fitted a one piece downpipe so hopefully will be lower still. I have possibly advanced too much and wasting the potential of the cam but the engine pulls well and all the way to the 7.5k limiter

[GTphil]

It was at 116 in the other engine, i liked the pull at the top end very much, as the melted piston shows.....

It was however always short on power compared to other c1j's. I always thought this was due to the low comp and not the cam timing. It's a tough choice i don't really fancy adjusting it in situ, it's hard enough on an engine stand.

I might go for 115/116 with pod in mind.

Then again i might just flip a coin and let fate decide as it's pretty obvious that i can't.


Tubby, your downpipe will help massively with the spool, my bms took 400rpm off spool up

[GTphil]

Mark,

I'm guessing that bushys cam was an older version 285 that was recommended by piper at 110 degrees.

Bushys quater was very much down to his launch and gear change at the start, his Full T25 and the cam at 110 degrees would have helped a great deal with that i would have thought.

Obviously the fact his engine also made very good power did the rest.

I watched his run and the launch was awesome

Goes to show that time can be made up by putting in a good 60ft time and a good first/second gear change.

Slicks obviously help and the big 22" ones hook up like nobodys business i would have thought. Was bushy using small slicks? From memory i think he was.

His 60ft time is very impressive. That's what i think dropped him into the 11's with the power he had.

So maybe 113 will be a good figure to hit given my turbo doesn't hit full boost till after 4k rpm.

My best 60ft time to date is 1.8 bushys was 1.74 a few 10'ths on the launch count for a lot more at the end.

[GTphil]

All sorted, took a little while.

I set it to 113 degrees.

[B18ftMOJO5]

well done Phil that was a quick turn around. good job

[chunk552]

I Always enjoy reading your thread Phil
Always a problem love it

[Tutuur]

Good to see you have it fixed so fast mate, love it! Just my caracter, bite the bullit and proceed!

[Alex]

So when's the start up Phil?

[GTphil]

Not for a while yet, i am as far as i can get now with zero cash spent. Big London weekend this weekend means zero pennies for the c1j mucho blood thirsty fun tho

[GTphil]

Well.......just had a flick back through this thread and checked the date of the first post, it was 2012 that means I started the project in 2011

Recently things financially have taken a turn for the worst.

To give you an idea when I started the project my salary was around 22/23k per year and I had no kids either.

Now I have twins and last years salary was 6k This years is set to be even lower by the looks of things. I'm a self employed driving instructor and due to childcare issues and the fact my Mrs salary is much more reliable meant late 2011 I had to go part time to take on the bulk of the childcare. This obviously hit my hobbies quite hard both from having the time to work on the car or indeed not having any cash to splash.

Considering the amount of engine failures I have encountered it's no wonder I have haven't managed a 12 yet earning that sort of money.

Over the last few months or so a few developments have taken place. Firstly my twins start nursery next week So that opens up quite a lot more time for me to work. However I have become a little disillusioned recently with teaching people to drive. What with the unreliable nature of my clients ranging from forgetting they had a lesson to continually asking could they pay me at the end of the month then just vanishing when that time comes.

Also had one or two issues with other people on the roads. This culminated with me having my hands round some poor blokes neck while he was over the front of his bonnet Not exactly great behaviour on my part but he just pushed me to far.

So I have decided it's time to make a change. I'm going to be doing a degree in Motorsports engineering. I start next week and plan to still teach people to drive around the uni course.

I can't believe the amount of money it firstly costs and secondly these students get thorwn at them in the form of maintenance loans and grants.

I mean what else are these things for spending on other than a 12 second GT Turbo

So I should have one or two actual updates over the next few months.

As it stands now the bottom end is still on the engine stand but is complete with cam all timed up and what not. The rest of the engine is in the boot. The car its self hasn't seen the light of day from under it's cover for at least 4 months all that time it's bee tax'd, MOT'd and insured just broke

All I need is gaskets/coolant/oil/headbolts and I'm good to go chucking it all back in. Should be able to do it in a day I think. Funds have also been no existent over that time hence why it hasn't been touched.

So all in all a positive outlook at last and fingers crossed I can reach that line in under 13 seconds sooner rather than later.

[Nad-5GTT]

I bet your looking forward to the twins going to nursery, my youngest starts in October and I can't bloody wait peace and quiet oh and its school tomoz for the eldest, bliss

Good that your going back to study for a new career, I would like to study for something if I had my time again but touch wood I've got a good stable job with prospects so I can't grumble too much.

You would never see me spend a student loan on a renault 5........... well not all of it

GOOD LUCK

[Alex]

Good luck Phil, don't give up!

[GTphil]

Long time no post

Haven't even taken the cover off the raider since the last time it was washed back in April last year. The neighbours cat has decided to use the rear spoiler as a scratching post and has put some holes in the cover. Lord knows what i'm going to find when I finally do get round to uncovering it.

On a positive note I have just ordered a blueline headgasket, some head bolts, a new water pump and fixing kit, some indicator bulb holders, and one or two other small bits.

That's everything I need to chuck the lump back in and i'm away.

I ended up taking the sump off the donated bottom end I got, glad I did really, there was some shite in there that needed to come out. some old valve stem oil seals and some horrid black gungey oil residue. I checked the oil pump and bearings and all seemed well.

So hopefully over the next few weeks things will finally start to happen. Miss the boost!

[turbo ted]

Get back at this phil I think 2015 is the year for fast 5s