Project 12 Seconds!!

[GTphil]

Well, I thought it's about time I did a project thread on here.
I have owned my Raider for 8 years nearly now, in that time it's gone from everyday whip in which time it did over 45000 hard lead foot miles, it's had a few scrapes with telegraph poles and bmw's and such like and now barely does 1000 miles a year and spends most of its time sat in a garage in bits

So way back in 2010 the car had barely covered 500 miles in three years, was sat unloved on a car park under a cover almost completely forgotten aboutI had just bought a house with the Mrs and found in the December that my Mrs was pregnant with twinsI decided that I needed to pull my finger out and get it sorted before the little un's arrived otherwise it would have probably rotted to death

I got the old girl started and took her on some private roads for a bit of a warm up/shakedown. The lump had been mostly untouched since I purchased the car in 2005. The last time I had used the car was at the rtoc pod day in 2010 where it did a mid 13 with around 20psi on a t28. Anyway to cut a long story short the actuator vac pipe somehow came off and well you can guess what happened, lots of white smoke and a rather embarrassed me as I was just taking someone for a spin in it

It was at this point that project 12 seconds was born

It was originally meant to be just a basic engine re-fresh and some more boost then one thing lead to another and it ended up being a complete re-build with lots of new shiny parts

The basic goal was to turn it into primarily a road car capable of doing a 12 second quarter mile. Some may see this as an easy target or been there done that but I was on a very limited budget and also a quite limited timescale with the impending arrival of the twins Also i must point out that my mechanical experience before this point was what i would class a not very much!! I have met a few good freinds through RTOC who have helped in a big way when it came to picking things up so to speak. As an example when I first purchased the car in 2005 I thought the carb top was the turbo (not sure I should really admit that)

So thanks to my very kind neighbour and good friend Dany I had some workspace that was under cover and the use of various tools such as a compressor and basically a very well kitted out spacious garage

This was the day I rolled it into the garage


Then after a few hours work


Basically I had blown the head gasket between cylinders 1 and 2, a contributing factor to this was the fact my engine actuallly had odd pistons, it had three dished pistons and one flat topped one, god knows how it ended up like that, it was before I purchased it anyway, even so, the motor did over 45000 miles like this and actually was in quite good health minus the damage



So I got the bottom end onto an engine stand and began to strip it down to a bare block.




At this point I was still intent on re-using the majority of the old parts and just re-assembling with all new bearings gaskets/seals. The issue I had was that I needed to find a single dished low comp piston to replace the flat topped one from my engine. I did manage to find a set of low comp pistons and rod, one of them had spun a bearing and was scrap but the rest appered to be usable. I set about purchasing all the required parts to put the bottom end back together.

To cut a long story short when I started to put the block back together the new replacement low comp pistons I had purchased kept on pinching the crank when tourqed up no matter what I did they were not for moving freely at all. so i wrapped the block in a bin liner and pretty much left it at that for a few week while i saved up some cash and decided on my next move.

Thats all for now as stupid slow photobucket is really starting to get on my nerves

Plenty more progress and pictures to come, to take it up the present day

[Jonny5]

A bloody good read! Can't wait for part 2...

[Tony Walker]

Great were all four rods tight on the crank or did you try them one at a time and single one out as tight?

[Woznaldo]

Awesome thread, lots will be reading as they will be in similar circumstances. Lets see it through to that 12 sec run!!!!

[GTphil]

Great were all four rods tight on the crank or did you try them one at a time and single one out as tight?

They were all marked up with a punch I.e 1 2 3 4.

They all pinched the crank, the only way I could get them moving was to swap the caps over. Maybe they were mixed up I don't know, either way I ended up not using them as I didn't want to take any chances.

[Tony Walker]

ah ok better safe than sorry, do it once do it right

[GTphil]

I came to the conclusion that if I was going to do this then I may as well do it to the best that my budget could strech to (and occasionally beyond)

So the first port of call was to get an engineer to give the crank a once over, this was how it came out of the engine


The mains were ever so slightly scored the big ends however seemed to be in A1 condition, amazing what changing the oil and filter every 2.5k can do for an engine, I properly abused this lump over the years and it appered to have just taken it without bother

A wise man said to me that if you can feel your finger nail drop into the scoring marks then it will probably need a re-grind, the engineer agreed that it could have just gone back in as it was or if I wanted he would re-gring the mains and polish the big ends () for me, so I took him up on his offer and for good measure got him to clean up the block, I'm pressuming they hot washed it as it came back immaculate.

This was after the first of many coats or good old POR 15



This was the crank upon return, also the engine assembly lube that I used.



I then proceded to buy a whole load of new parts for the bottom end I also got my hands on a mint (and i mean mint) second hand gearbox, I also treated myself to an AP cerametalic 4 plate paddle clutch

285 cam kit (includes vernia and valve springs) not a regrind either it was ground from a blank


New pistons and liners and rings


The pistons after the wise man had worked his magic


I decided to go for the low compression pistons again as the engine before this seemed to perform well, the cylinder head was 73.1mm the last time I had it skimmed, there seemed to be a lot of people who agreed that renault got it correct in the first instance with the compression ratio, I never actually calculated the compression ratio ( maths was never my strong point) but assumed that with an uprated Blue gasket that the ratio would be ever so slightly lower than standard and given my limited tuning experiance probably not a bad thing all in all.

Clutch plate


The box once fitted and driven on felt like new



I also purchased lots of new ancillary parts



The car on it's side in the background was a 1988 merc 190E cosworth ended up meeting a grizley end as it was pretty much beyond saving after sitting still outside for god knows how many years

[LiamR]

Quality thread!!

Love ones like this. Helps keep me motivated!

Get more pics up i say

[rs250nut]

Is the timing sensor adjustable?If not its proabley worth making it adjustable for tuning, easy enough to do with a blow torch.

[GTphil]

At the moment the ignition timing is standard, I have played about with timing before at much lower boost, yet to try it at circa 24psi I have focused more attention on the cam timing durin the build.

[rs250nut]

At the moment the ignition timing is standard, I have played about with timing before at much lower boost, yet to try it at circa 24psi I have focused more attention on the cam timing durin the build.

Even more reason to make it adjustable then as you may need to pull a bit of timing to prevent it from knocking at high boost

[GTphil]

So next on the list was to sort out the rough as a dogs arse engine bay, If it was down to me to be honest I would have just not bothered but my mate dany is uber anal when it comes to things like this I mentioned in passing that I wasn't going to bother giving it a lick of paint, when I came back out to work on the car a few hours later he had "preped" one of the turetts The cheeky sod!!

This was the bay with almost everything removed and the bits that were staying masked up. (I wasn't going to get paint on my nearly new £220 servo) If you look closely you can see the scars from the small brush I had with a telegraph pole(tungy drivers side arch) and also the scar from the little incident with a BMW. (passenger side bonnet hinge)



Like I said to be fair this shell has had a hard life, you can also see lots of rust if you look closely.

Once I started to pick away at things the extent of the rust was more than first thought(as is always the case)



A few plates later and plenty of zinc oxide primer and afterwards lashings of POR 15 and seam sealer and all was well again........for a few years at least



I then set about cleaning the whole engine bay ready for prep, jet washed it then went over every panal with thinners then began to prep it all, considering I had never picked up sandpaper before not to mention a spray gun it actually came out ok minus a few bits where dumb ass me went over fresh paint with the compressor line

Anyway it sort of looked ok at a glance so I was happy with it

I also took the time to prep and paint all the engine bay brackets in POR 15 as they were also starting to look a bit orange.



I also decided that my willy wheels were looking a bit scruffy so sent them off and my strut brace to be powder coated for a bargin price



Next on the list was to build the motor

[Andyturbo!]

Fantastic read so far fella

[Nad-5GTT]

Enjoying the read so far, get on with the rest come on

[GT Josh]

Nice nice brother.

[gttjames]

looking good, keep it up

[Coops]

[GTphil]

So at last it was time to build the motor I won't pretend that I wasn't a little concerned that I had never built an engine before especially given the fact I was planning on running to most (not to some I know) a considerable amount of boost

Given the amount I had spent on parts I was already at the point where the mrs (if she ever found out what I had spent) would probably still to this day use two house bricks on the family jewles

So it needed to be built right, I took the time to read up on as much as I could beforehand and also bugging the wise man with plenty of questions

To be honest the haynes manual was a big help I pretty much just follwed it from start to finish.

this is the crank in place with the bottom part of the mains also and the crank seal.


This was in the living room checking the liner protrusion, I checked all the new liners and some re-conditioned ones I had and they were all within 0.2 mm of each other and when it came to stepping them this was virtually impossable as they were all the same, so I took the wisemans advise and just threw then in in any old order



This was the new pistons fitted to the rods (I left that to the engineer to do) along with the rings fitted with the caps and nuts, also the new liners and a few sets of liner seals.



Pistons fitted inside liners





I then fitted the pistons to the block making sure as I went the engine would turn over nice and smoothly, i used lashing if engine assembly lube



Next on the list was the cam and vernia





The cam followers had been checked by an engineer to ensure they are usable, as I wasn't paying £30 odd each or what ever it is from Renault nowadays

I didn't bother fitting the sump just yet as I wanted to re-seat all the valves in the cylinderhead and get the head and cam timing sorted first

[GTphil]

Next on the list was to fit the valve springs to the cylinder head, whist I was at it I re-seated all the valves and replaced the valve stem seals. looking back I wish I just hadn't bothered with stem seals at all



Valve seat



Valve



Then I set about fitting the cylinder head to the block along with a uprated headgasket and new 12.9 tensile headbolts





Next item on the list was the oil pump, having checked the old internals they were just on the edge of the tolorance limit, so I purchased a pump re-furb kit.



Then once the pump was fitted to the block the next task was to get my head around the cam timing, how it all worked and indeed how to do it. As I understood it cam timing could make a huge difference to the overall performance of engine, and I had a decision to make when it came to advancing the timing or retarding it, if I had a T25 then I probably would have either timed it up to 112 degrees or maybe a slight little bit of advance by around 2 degrees, but I have a T28 and coupled with the bp285 shaft I decided that given the 12 second goal I wanted the powerband to be nice and high up the revs, I have never really been bothered about having to rev a c1j either so I settled on retarding the timing by 4degrees to 116 dergees.

I invested in a dail guage and a mag stand, printed off the RTOC guide on cam timing, read up as much I could online about how to do it then set about the task one evening in the garage.

Basically I took three readings then worked out the average, then took another three readings and did the same again, then took another three readings and did the same then worked out the average from the final three readings. To my suprise it came in at 112degrees I then repeated the process a further three times and came out with pretty much the same answer everytime.



Once I started to play around with the vernia I was suprised at how difficult and time consuming the task of cam timing actually was, I literally must have spent about 4/5 hours on this alone, given the importance of it I was happy to spend as much time as it took to get it how I wanted it or as close to as possable.

[Coops]

did you manage to achieve the 116 you were after? :-)

[Scoff]

did you manage to achieve the 116 you were after? :-)

Sounds familiar ...

[GT Josh]

Oushhhh. Its a good thread bud. I well wanna do all this to my car lol.

[GTphil]

Sounds familiar ...

Everything sounds familiar, to you wise men......

And yes coops I did manage to hit 116 in the end.

[LiamR]

Cracking thread!

I love reading this one. Keep up the good work

[TNT ANDY]

Sounds familiar ...

is 116 the optimum timing on a 285 / T28 set-up? I'm going to be doing mine in-situ next week?

[GTphil]

is 116 the optimum timing on a 285 / T28 set-up? I'm going to be doing mine in-situ next week?

It's debateable, the main reason I decided on this figure was because for the Q/M it's all about peak hp and if you time your cam so the power band is high up the revs this can "sometimes boost peak hp".

Some people have had good results doing the oppsite and advancing the timing, your c1j is obviously very different to mine, if you have standard compression and efi (mappable ignition??) for track driving/ b road fun you might be better of advancing the timing.

All i can say regards my set up is i don't hit full boost till 4.2k rpm and to be fair it is fairly flat below 3k but i was expecting that. After 4k it's fairly bonkers and seems to want to keep going beyond 7k rpm.

[Coops]

nice work phil

scoff...................120 would be nice, squeak the boost once the engines bedded in and hit a higher terminal...........unless you weren't referencing my 1/4 mile antics in which case......eh?!

[GTphil]

Once I was happy with the cam timing it was just a case of bolting everything toghether ready to put back in the car, i think you will all agree this is by far the best bit









So the next thing on the list was plumbing the engine up and that bit that you look forward to with a slight bit of worry after building your first engine........the first start up

As i was planning on doing 400 miles with no boost i plumbed the engine up with no turbo initially.



I Blanked off an old exhaust housing and blocked off the turbo oil feed from the block with a wheel bolt



Well the first start up went rather well (once i had got the ignition leads on in the correct firing order) Before i fired her up, i checked and double checked the valve clearances made sure the oil and coolant levels were correct, made sure i had fuel and spark and the battery was fully charged.

The plan was to run the engine at 2.5k rpm for 10 minuits to bed the new cam in, turn it off leave it over night then re-tourq the head and re-check the valve clearances, change the oil, top up the coolant, put the rest of the car back toghether then get it MOT'd

I only managed to run it for 6 minuits as for some reason (I was to find this out at santa pod) the temp sat on the third line and wouldn't drop down at all.

Once mot time came around this was the first time I was to drive the car on the road with the new lump, the plan was to work the engine through the rev range taking it up to 3k and letting it rev down on overun then 4k so on and so fourth, was quite painfull to be honest as with no turbo it really was flat as a fart and I was wincing everytime I was taking the revs up

Anyway it passed the mot first time with the only advisory being the jacking points, they were really quite bad to honest but mr mot man is a very freindly chap, plus he was going to the retro car show that was on at pod the same weekend as the rtoc pod day, he did mention that come the next mot he would like them sorted

I was driving home with a case of cheshire cat syndrome looking and sounding like a tool as I was taking it up to 7k rpm by this point with no turbo going nowhere fast making lots of noise

The next day I put 200 miles on it and again the day after only issue being the temp liked to rise whist sat in traffic, on the move it would drop down nicely, couldn't fathom it out as the fan switch wiring was fine the fan had kicked in in the garage and the switch was a bran new genuine renault item.......the coolant was blead up probably around 20 times also

Then I was to fit the turbo and all the rest of the gubbins



Got it insured and taxed and by this point the rtoc pod day was in 7 days time, the plan was to have it ready by then and set up with some reasonable boost.......best laid plans and all that The other small issue was that my other half was about fit to burst, she was a month off her due date but twins normally always come early so i knew i was cutting it fine, to be honest i was praying they would hold on untill after the rtoc pod day, they were officially grounded before they were even born

[Brigsy]

Good thread mate The first time you dial a cam in its a nightmare, took me a full day to suss it out!

[TNT ANDY]

C

It's debateable, the main reason I decided on this figure was because for the Q/M it's all about peak hp and if you time your cam so the power band is high up the revs this can "sometimes boost peak hp".

Some people have had good results doing the oppsite and advancing the timing, your c1j is obviously very different to mine, if you have standard compression and efi (mappable ignition??) for track driving/ b road fun you might be better of advancing the timing.

All i can say regards my set up is i don't hit full boost till 4.2k rpm and to be fair it is fairly flat below 3k but i was expecting that. After 4k it's fairly bonkers and seems to want to keep going beyond 7k rpm.

Thanks for that, I'll have a word with Scoff as he's mapped mine once and he'll be re mapping after I've.adjusted the cam.

[GTphil]

The engine was built, the turbo was plumbed up, the RTOC pod day tickets were purchased, everything was good to go

Aside from the fact I had done zero miles with the turbo attached The main issue with this was that should my other half go into labour I would need to return home sharpish, and if disaster was to strike and I was to break something and then she went into labour I would have been at the mercy of the AA when it came to getting me home quickly

Luckly one of my mates agreed to lend me his recovery truck for the weekend What an absolute star!! So I bunged him £50 and enough stella to sink a very large ship

All that was left to do was to pack the car load it onto the truck the night before then travle down on the friday.......well the car had other ideas, the battery decided to give up the ghost as I was about to load it onto the truck, only issue was I didn't think to check the most obviouse thing first I was pulling everything apart convinced that I had either melted something or not put something back on correctly, posted a thread up on here then checked it half an hour later and someone said "have you checked the battery?" bunged a new bat on and hey presto she fired good old RTOC!

The journy down was rather sedate aside from the trucks massivly loud air horn, me and my bro didn't half have some fun with that!!

We arrived pitched our tent, then went round to get a plot next to the strip



I think you will agree nothing quite like a load of C1j's warbling at full chat to get you motivated the most outstanding cars of the day for noise were by far scoff and glenns cars, scoffs sounds like a fighter jet flying past

So I fired the raider up and let her warm up then took her for a gental drive around with some boost, only 8psi but it had been so long even that felt great.

The plan was to do a few runs at this boost levle and then slowly start to wind it up, even with only 8psi the car managed a 94mph terminal speed I didn't even get a terminal speed like that years ago at 15psi on a t2 turbo, so I knew the lump was performing well and if I could get the carb right I was on for a decent time/terminal speed, the aim was for a 105mph terminal just enough for an honast 200hp.

So as the boost was slowly going up and up the car was getting quicker and quicker, then at 17psi for some reason it started to bog down quite heavily on the launch and inbetween gear changes I couldn't get a clean run in for love nor money

The carb spec at this point was:-

120 main
0.9a/c
1.4mm second stage
2mm needle valve
standard venturi

My first thoughts were the needle valve, changed this back to a 1.7mm and it made the lauches better but i was still getting really bad bogging down between gears#

It was very rich at that boost with that spec so I started to up the boost further to see if this would cure it, no joy

I hit 22psi and the car was actually fueling reasonably well it was at 11.7 afr at WOT with no det of no signs of the flote emptying just the horrable bogging down

Then before I knew it I was out of time having only managed a 100mph terminal speed and from memory a 13.5. Even tho this was the best terminal speed i had ever achived and a P.B I was actually a bit gutted as I knew I wouldn't be able to make it down for the rest of the summer and the car definatly had more in it

Whilst in the campsite the next morning my bro suggested that we should have another crack and stay for the rwyb on the saturday, after about 5 seconds thought I agreed.

I will let you know how I got on in the next post

[Romil Davda]

LOL... Loving this thread mate, keep it coming

[kentraider]

loving this thread....really gets ur attention....i know u both had a good nites kip as u spotted the terry hearne bedchairs....an the trusty old bivvy :-):-):-)..i hope u crack the twelve buddy too ;-);-)

[Ron]

Good write up Phil! Are you and Josh heading the pod day this year?

[GTphil]

Good write up Phil! Are you and Josh heading the pod day this year?

Yes, all being well, Josh has himself a nice sliver phase 1 now also, I'm sure you have already seen some pics. Plus I have made one or two small changes to the raider.

Looking forward to it, thinking about going down on the Saturday and camping ready for the Sunday.

You?

[Brigsy]

Was that the pod day that was really hot? My van done about 3 clean runs and bogged down for the rest when changing into third. Never really found out what caused it.

[GT Josh]

Was that the pod day that was really hot? My van done about 3 clean runs and bogged down for the rest when changing into third. Never really found out what caused it.

Yes Brigsy that was the day cause I got chronic sunburn and was in a world of pain!

[GTphil]

Yes Brigsy that was the day cause I got chronic sunburn and was in a world of pain!

That's what you get for being ginger!!

My pod tan was pretty cool, sock lines and an amazing t-shirt tan!

[GTphil]

So after deciding that I was going to stay for RWYB the next day, the bivvy was packed away and the plot from the day before was free so we slotted in the truck, then I went to sign on.



The plan was to try the re-jet the spare standard carb and see if this made any differance,

I jetted it as follows

120 main
0.9 A/C
1.4mm second stage
1.7 needle valve

Once I was all ready to have a run one of the backyard lads pointed out that my slicks probably had a little to much air in, so I borrowed a tyre pressure guage (cheers Dave) and dropped them down to 6psi.

I had noticed the previouse day that again the coolant temps were getting higher than normal, sitting on the third line and not coming down, found the problem to be the bran new genuine renault fan switch so I had to bridge the connections with a small bit of wire when I needed the fan to come in, the day was pretty much the same as the one before and was baking hot, to say it got fairly tostey in the car was an understatement, as I had the heater on full pelt also

So I lined up for my first run, gave it some welly off the line and I could instantly feel the slicks gripping more with less air in no bogging down then when I changed to fourth I heard an almighty pop and lost all power, not to worry tho it was only the boost hose popping off the plenum still on the launch I did a 1.91 60ft and ran a 13.4 but with only 94mph (cheers boost hose) but on a posative note the bogging down was gone

By this time the dredded que's had started to form so it was almost an hour before I got my next run in, fluffed the launch but ran cleanly the whole run

When I parked up afterwards I asked my bro what the terminal speed was, he casually said 105mph.................

I was well happy with that!

It was still running slightly rich so I upped the boost back up to 22psi and joined the cue for another go.

I knew that with a good launch I might just drop into the 12's so I was sat on the line trying to keep myself focused the lights went to green off I went, felt good, then when changing to fourth the dredded bogging down reared it's ugly head again

On the plus side the terminal speed had gone up again to 106mph

Joined the cue again, lined up next to a skyline that had been running 10's all day, so on the line I let him go before I went for it, the launch was rubbish but with the help of a little bit of flat shifting the car ran cleanly and did a 13.2 @106.67mph it was still running a little rich so I decided to up the boost a little more

I was also going to get the slicks nice and warm this time to try and help with the launch, so I gave it what was for me anyway quite a large burnout to get some heat into the tyres. then whist sat on the line the guy stood next to me gave me a clear signal to kill the engine opened my door and he said "you have what looks like a large pool of oil under your car"

Gutted



So I was pushed off the line and out of the gates at the side, it reminded me of being thrown out of a nightclub

I opened the bonnet to find the turbo oil feed adaptor had snapped good job the guy on the line spotted that really, with no other oil feed adaptors to hand that was it racing over.

I was a little gutted that I didn't get a 12 second run but I knew that the car was making enough power (just) and if I could have launched it better it probably would have dropped into the 12's.#

So off home I went after a awesome weekend, only wish I could do it more often.



Best run of the weekend, still quite a few more updates to come to take it upto the present day

[DaveMayGTT]

This is passing the time at work very nicely, excellent read!

[Coops]

phil, what sort of slicks are you using? drag or track? and what size?

I'm tempted to have a crack with some this season if I can and get my times down a bit

[Ashy]

FFS I've been on the edge of my seat, checking this thread for weeks, waiting for the result.... And you didn't even get a 12s pass...






































Good work though mate, good luck for the next outing

[GT Josh]

That's what you get for being ginger!!

My pod tan was pretty cool, sock lines and an amazing t-shirt tan!

Don't listen to this pleb. I'm not a ginger for you all to know. I just got left to sizzle whilst he practiced his crap driving. Couldn't get a 12 in a bugatti veyron

[GTphil]

Ashy, not half as gutted as I was......still, I will be updating the thread soon enough with a few small changes that should hopefully do the trick, plus the track at this years pod day is suppost to be a million times better so fingers crossed.

Coops, they are Mickey T's drag slicks on 14" steelies, to be fair they are probably past their best quite old, as many moons ago they were scoff's then haz's then Robin's and now mine! They are still good for a high 1.8 /low 1.9 60ft tho, i will get the exact size and post it up for you next time I'm in the garage.

With your kind of power slicks would see your times literlly tumble!!

[GTphil]

Don't listen to this pleb. I'm not a ginger for you all to know. I just got left to sizzle whilst he practiced his crap driving. Couldn't get a 12 in a bugatti veyron

We will see how you get on this year Billy big bolloks!!

[Coops]

I know man, I really want to try and crack 11's but i'm dubious about the gearbox.

don't worry on the slick size, 14" is too small, wont fit over my brakes so I need 15" rims min, I will sort something.

perhaps some old track slicks may at least improve me a bit, get sub 2 60ft, best so far is 2.07 iirc on the R888's

[Markey Mark (BD)]

I know man, I really want to try and crack 11's but i'm dubious about the gearbox.

don't worry on the slick size, 14" is too small, wont fit over my brakes so I need 15" rims min, I will sort something.

perhaps some old track slicks may at least improve me a bit, get sub 2 60ft, best so far is 2.07 iirc on the R888's

Wouldn't use track slicks mate, there too hard and wouldn't offer much more grip then your R888's
If you still want to use 15's i'd use the softest compound R888 or similar you can get or swap the brakes for standard size and fit some proper drag slicks on there


Nice little read up here Phil, sure you'll get that 12 you got the ewngine for it
I would look into new set of tyres mate, i noticed a huge difference when i got my newer ones few years ago (they were still used but newer the my old MT's)

[Coops]

not sure I can be bothered swapping brakes back and forth tbh.

next step I guess is to try the R888's at silly low pressures perhaps

anyway this isn't the right place for me to mull over this but cheers for the pointers

[tubbyG]

brilliant write up

keep the updates coming...and good luck on the strip chasing the elusive 12's

[allanr5gtt]

loving this thread....really gets ur attention....i know u both had a good nites kip as u spotted the terry hearne bedchairs....an the trusty old bivvy :-):-):-)..i hope u crack the twelve buddy too ;-);-)

terry hearne bedchairs....an the trusty old bivvy