so its happened, hg has gone :(

[gttjames]

cant beleive it, bought the car almost 5 years ago, done plenty of miles on it (15k) without any real faults, then the camshaft sprocket spins off, so had engine out over xmas and put a piper 270 cam in and re timmed it all up, got it mot'd a month ago done about 300 miles then took it out tonight. Let it warm up for a couple mins, then pulled off, normal cold driving no boost, and 2 miles down the road noticed white smoke out the back and temp was going up and down, pulled over and got water in my oil breather pot and low coolant. So gutted.

So head off then to inspect whats happened i guess?

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[Tony Walker]

How much water in your breather?, best bet is a Carbon monoxide test on your coolant to see if theres gases in there.

[gttjames]

i last had the car out tuesday and it was fine, put it in garage then got it out today and started it and was really lumpy on idle, then after 10seconds went fine again. Where the oe breather hose goes to the air filter pipe i just run this to a oil catch tank, well it had about a egg cup full of water in there, with a touch of oil. Was none in there on tuesday... And the header tank is empty

Got a volvo compression tester at work so il see if i can adapt it to fit or will it run 10miles as il drive it to work and take it to mot bay and see if theres exhuast gases in the header?

[Tony Walker]

starting lumpy doesnt sound promising i'd top the coolant up make sure its bled put the cap on and see if it pressurises the coolant system

[gttjames]

had to drive it home this morning (3 miles ish)

started it up, lump on idle, then sorted within 20 seconds, drove it home, checked oil catch tank bit and its got another egg cup full of water in there and loads of mayo on filler cap, dipstick. So thats settled that.

Shall i just get head straigh off, or should i compression test 1st? And how do i work out if its a different issue like pistons or something, or this be obvious with head off?

cheers

[Brigsy]

Just pull head straight off if the oil is full of mayo. Get it back together and get the fuelling set up again, job sorted

[gttjames]

well hope it is just the hg, il make time over weekend and get it off. Il report back as no doubt will come across some issue's.

Oh well 15k ish miles in 5 years and no hg so far so isnt to bad going i suppose

guys while iv got head off this looks ideal time to sort my knocky noise from head. I set tappets to 20/20 on a piper 270 and was really rough. Was going to set them to 15/25 as suggested by piper and see what they where like, but while head is off what is worth replacing/checking for wear as after hearing a few other gtt's i would like mine sounding smooth like theres. Ellz from here just got a 5 with a 285 cam etc and it sounds very smooth

[R5MJH]

id always check the piston comps also was it breathing heavy we had this and it turned out to be rings sounds more hg in your case but always worth checking compresion boss

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Have the head pressure tested mate, may well have slight crack in there

[gttjames]

How much should i be looking at paying for head tested? And what should head thickness be as iv read that somewhere 73.3? Ic measured mine best i can with a ruler and think its 72mm? where should i be mesuring and what is acceptable?

Well it goes like this....
suspicious....


oh dear


head off


gasket shots, looks very old and rusty to me, anyone confirm the hg has failed and no need to look elsewhere?



cant see any cracks or damaged to pistons etc



head and block both seem flat to me

[Brigsy]

The head should be 73.5 mate, although you could get away with 73 with the mellior gasket. You need vernier calipers to check the height of the head accurately

[gttjames]

il try and get hold of some for a better measurement

pistons have all got 52047E stamped on them, standard renault im assumming?

So anyone confirm the gasket failed? Also what bits if any should i check for wear to sort the noisey rattling head

guys while iv got head off this looks ideal time to sort my knocky noise from head. I set tappets to 20/20 on a piper 270 and was really rough. (was rough even with standard cam and set by haynes manual) Was going to set them to 15/25 as suggested by piper and see what they where like, but while head is off what is worth replacing/checking for wear as after hearing a few other gtt's i would like mine sounding smooth like theres. Ellz from here just got a 5 with a 285 cam etc and it sounds very smooth and others iv heard sound fine

[Dave Reed]

cant really see in that pic.. You need to take some close up pics of each firing ring.

I'd be looking at cylinder no2 as that's the cleanest, most likely where the water has cleaned the carbon of.

[gttjames]

cant really see in that pic.. You need to take some close up pics of each firing ring.

I'd be looking at cylinder no2 as that's the cleanest, most likely where the water has cleaned the carbon of.

the ring at the top of the bore, close ups of each ok i will get

[Dave Reed]

the ring at the top of the bore, close ups of each ok i will get

No, I was referring to how clean the piston was.. But ye close ups of the gasket will be much better.. Your looking for a squashed part on the fire ring (the metal part that sits on top of the liner, on the gasket) Will only be a tiny indent.

[Tony Walker]

Definetly cylinder 2 looks like where liner 2/3 meet.

[rs250nut]

Check the liners for cracks.

[gttjames]

heres some close ups guys

[gttjames]

right well as far as i can see the hg has not failed, its clear water has got in cylinder no.2 - this will explain the missfire on start up. Head looks flat with a steel rule best i can check, where do i go from here?

also trying to cure 'bag of nails' from rocker cover, how worn can cam followers be, mine have light rub marks on them but all appear flat

[Mart]

Could be a perished liner seal causing the mayo, but the misfire/white steam at start-up points more towards water in a cylinder (No.2, going from the pictures) for sure.

If the head isn't cracked, for the sake of whipping off the sump & 2 nuts per rod, I'd be pulling the liners out for a thorough inspection.

[GTphil]

My first port of call would be to get the head pressure tested and properly checked for true/flatness.

Then I would be clamping the liners down with bolts and large washers and turning the engine over and getting a good look at all the liners, cracks can be very difficult to spot so take your time and double double check. Then look at the liner protrusion (how much they stick out of the block by as this is how the h/g clamps down over the liners. They should be stept slightly from one side to the other.

If all of the above doesn't turn up anything then I would be inclined to pull all the liners out and re-seal them also.

As for the cam followers, again they can look perfectly flat but actually not be, get them checked by the engineer for TRUE also.

Those close up pictures of your gasket could do with being a little more close up of each cyliner if you get what I mean, still difficult to tell from the pictures alone.

[gttjames]

thanks for replies - was wishing it was just the gasket. I think this may be alittle to in depth for me with a broken hand at the moment, undoing the head bolts was a challenge lol. Anyone want to lend a hand to get me going in the right direction, food/beer/travel catered for

which should i do 1st get head checked or check piston/liners?

[GTphil]

Clamp the liners down and check the liners as much as you can (because this is free) then get the head pressure tested and checked then if that doesn't throw anything up take the liners out and inspect/re-seal.

Worth checking the liner protrusion also as this is free

[gttjames]

ok so 1st using any bolt that will fit use a washer to clamp liners down, then turn engine over to view all bores. It doesnt matter turning engine over with head off does it as camshaft isnt in the head?

[GTphil]

I just use bolts with large washers make sure they are all clamped down fairly tight, no need to do em headbolt tight just nip them up so the liners don't move.

Use a bright LED torch to inspect the liners properly, starting with the suspect cylinder.

You will be fine turning the engine over as long as the liners don't move, if they do they will most likely disturb the liners seals then they will have to come out for sure

[gttjames]

I just use bolts with large washers make sure they are all clamped down fairly tight, no need to do em headbolt tight just nip them up so the liners don't move.

Use a bright LED torch to inspect the liners properly, starting with the suspect cylinder.

You will be fine turning the engine over as long as the liners don't move, if they do they will most likely disturb the liners seals then they will have to come out for sure

ok il give it ago, i can see myself needing to seal 4pistons next lol
cheers for the help il report back

[gttjames]

right well clamped down liners best i could, yerp it looks pikey. so checked bores especially no.2 where it looks like the water got in and cant really see anything. Then looked at gasket again and can see a very tiny mark, how big does the mark need to be on the gasket to be a problem?







also this is waht my engine has allways sounded like with standard cam and piper 270 cam - i would ideally like to sort this aswell while here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlvc1iI1rU

[Brigsy]

Did you measure the head up in the end?? I wouldnt look into it too much, clearly the h/g has let go on cyl 2.

Ive hasd this happen to me in the past, misfire on startup and using coolant, was down to poor tune and det.

[gttjames]

I measured myself more accurtley and got 73mm will confirm this with some verniers though. Well thing is i dont want to put it back together and be in same situation 100miles down the road. But doesnt appear to be any liners cracked so shall i measure head and if ok go for it? new hg and bolts.

Also anyone got any ideas on the nocking noise iv allways had??? thanks alot

[Dave Reed]

I measured myself more accurtley and got 73mm will confirm this with some verniers though. Well thing is i dont want to put it back together and be in same situation 100miles down the road. But doesnt appear to be any liners cracked so shall i measure head and if ok go for it? new hg and bolts.

Also anyone got any ideas on the nocking noise iv allways had??? thanks alot

The mark will only be very small.. It'll be a little indent as I said further up the post.. i'll try get a pick of mine when I get home tonight...

that knocking to me sounds like a piston slapping around in the bore.. Could possibly be a broken ringland.. Or maybe a small end.. Sounds like you need to strip the whole motor down for further investigation tbh at the end of the day, if all ok you can just bang it all back together.

[R5MJH]

The mark will only be very small.. It'll be a little indent as I said further up the post.. i'll try get a pick of mine when I get home tonight...

that knocking to me sounds like a piston slapping around in the bore.. Could possibly be a broken ringland.. Or maybe a small end.. Sounds like you need to strip the whole motor down for further investigation tbh at the end of the day, if all ok you can just bang it all back together.

I totally agree the bottom end sounds quite terminal and needs stripping right down boss

[gttjames]

When running it sounds more from the rocker area. Ok well i guess it all needs stripping then - or are they ok to run like this just abit noisey? never done anything this in depth should i try it myself or should i find someone to do the work for me?

So if i take pistons out how will i work out what the noise is

Next job is sump off yer? and then what, is there a guide anywhere. Thanks for all your help so far

[Dave Reed]

The problem is that we are all trying to diagnose your problems with pics n videos.. Things sound a lot different in the flesh.. The reason I say it sounds more piston/bearing issue is the rattle on the downward rev motion, top/tappets tend to make a constant tap tap tap sound (if you get what I mean)..

Also if your not sure on what your doing I would seek expert advice.. It is possible to build an engine using a Haynes book of lies, but youll never have the experience of say someone who's builds engines for a living..

A short block rebuild with someone else doing the work should cost no more than 7-800 notes.. This would unculde new liners, pistons & bearings etc.. I always say do it properly n do it once!!

There are a few good people on here who have worked around these cars/engines for a long time...

[Markey Mark (BD)]

Personally mate first thing i would do is have that head pressure tested, i get sneeky suspision it might have issue with it. If all comes back ok then i would look into striping the block down but don't do it if you don't need to, worth checking everything else properly first

I did read somewhere you trying to work on engine with broken hand, if you get stuck or need someone to do it for you i'm more than happy to build you a bottom end for you to get you on road quickly

[Tony Walker]

Its not a massive amount more work to take the pistons out and replace bearings and piston rings, worth it imo. If the sounds definetly the rocker area take a look at the rocker cover incase it was overtightened and one of the arms touching the cover?

[gttjames]

thanks again for replies i will check rocker cover for marks, either way i think il have to get the head checked so i will do that next, do you have to remove water pump, manifold, etc or can it be done with this in place and what should it cost?

And mark cheers i may need to take you up on that offer.... As think it will be a little to in depth for me, and i dont want it off the road ages again. Been off the road 2years get it mot'd and taxed last month and now this, need to be driving it

[gttjames]

update on this. Took the head to be pressure tested - as expected all ok.

I have looked more online into liner protrusion and my haynes, it states minimal liner protrusion to be 0.02mm to 0.09mm - smallest feeler blade i have is 0.03 and that wont slide under any with a flat edge. it just about goes under number 4 but the rest look flush with the block. So im guessing this is my issue.

Do the liner seals perish/flatten - will new liner seals sort this or do i need a new block? Where should i go from here?

cheers

[Mart]

Liner protrusion is only important when fitting new liners, and even then, some people don't bother & just fit them any old how.

I'd go with the advice given in post 20...

[gttjames]

Liner protrusion is only important when fitting new liners, and even then, some people don't bother & just fit them any old how.

I'd go with the advice given in post 20...

I am going to remove engine and strip bottom end. But the more i look into liners the more im worried. And im still trying to work out where its failed and surely if the liners are flush with block there will be minimal clamping force on hg? and i will have problems again soon. This is a message i got from bob at cgb

'The liners all need to sit above the edge of the block by 0.02mm - 0.09mm but all need to be about the same height. If three sit at .09mm higher than the edge of the block and the forth sits at 0.02mm or lower (ie level with the edge) then the lower liner will not gain a good seal with the gasket. Therefore you will not see any failure in the gasket like in your situation.

When we rebuild engines - 60% of the blocks are scrap because they are either cracked (due to the original brackets not being used) or because the area where the liners sit has become corroded and the liner either rocks side to side or no longer sits at the correct height. Before the engine was stripped the base of the liner will be surround by 20 years worth of corrosion and so will seal OK but once the liners are disturbed you may find problems - you can see by the above measurements the tolerances are very tight and I can see why peoples engines seem to fail over and over again.'

[gttjames]

Ok so got hold of a craine and got engine out, stripped it down.

Crank has marks on it, as do the shells - could this be the tappy noise i was hearing and mistaking for tappet noise?

Pistons look ok to me, im going to put new rings on anyway. What else do you check, con rod to piston moves ok does anything here need replacing? I will do shells on bottom of con rods anyway.

Liners look ok to me, cannot see any cracks, allthough could do with a hone i will get done while there out. Liner seals look streched - none are broke though.

So question still is where has the water got in? Head has been checked and ok, hg looks good, liners look good, piston rings look good, no broken liner seals?

The liners didnt protrude - can the liner seals go flat over time and maybe then this has allowed water past the hg? So new liner seals may give me some protrusion and sort it?

I think it may even be the rad, can they crack from oil cooler to rad? Can a radiator shop check this for me?

Any help im gratefull for, cheers guys





Will this clean up ok for liner seals?



Crank






Corrosion marks on outside of liner, doesnt go through to inside though

[gttjames]

Anyone?

[chris]

You need to have the head pressure checked and skimmed (if it needs it) and yea its not immposible the rad could of cracked i take theres oil in water or is there water in the oil ?

[R5MJH]

was the tappets ok before the 270 cam was fitted??was the knocking noise there on std cam? im just in the process of buiding a complete new c1j for the boy, knocking could be anything have you checked play on all piston/conrods as they dont have small ends? maybe old hg just had it time mate id check all parts 100% replace if needed then get a blue meillor hg set, check afrs etc, make sure there more than 73mm on the head too

[gttjames]

chris - post 37 - had head pressure tested all ok.

And the coolant tank when to minimum so water went in with the oil. Can radiotor places check the rads easily?

Tappet noise has been there since day 1 with standard cam - did valve clearances and was abit better - same noise with 270 cam

Well im considering just putting it all back together with new....
all shells/bearings/thrust washers
liner seals
piston rings
new hg
oil pump
and just hope its all ok

r5mjh where am i looking for play on piston/conrods? In the piston where the conrod attaches to piston? That moves side to side isnt this normal?

[gttjames]

Also i cleaned up the liner's and where they seat in the block, and put them all back in place and i can get liner protrusion witohut seels - i thinik when i clamped them down to turn engine over i must of clamped them down to much. Just dont want to put it all back together and have issues again as i ight be missing something that someone else wont.

Also pistons have on them '52047E ' are these oe renault? As would suggest bottom end never been apart?

[Tony Walker]

you cant really clamp them too much, they get clamped to circa 70nm when you tighten the head bolts.

[gttjames]

you cant really clamp them too much, they get clamped to circa 70nm when you tighten the head bolts.

So from previous searches on the boards iv read to put liners in without seals to check protrusion. When i place them in the block how do i tell how far to push them down?? to check theem

[Tony Walker]

Till they bottom out, this is how you will know if a liner is too low.

[gttjames]

Oh right So if i put liners in (it says in previous threads iv searched to check them without seals fitted as doesnt make much difference) so if i fit them and place a block of wood over them and tap them down and there flush with the block? This means its no good, so what causes this, new liners or new block? Sorry for all the questions just im eager to get it rebuilt, and no point spending hundreds on new gaskets and parts to rebuild it and it fails straight away.

[R5MJH]

side to side is fine any other movement mite mean noise by your list i think it will be fine doing what you list id still double check piston movement boss