M11 GTT - Clio Mk1 F7P Turbo

[Coops]

Right, update!

Finally decided to crack on and get the car apart and see whats causing the over-pressurizing issue i've been seeing this season on track.

So this is how the car is stood currently, looking a bit forlorn on the 'drive' and a bit unloved



the damps caused a bit of mould inside, but next to none really and i've chucked loads of silicone bags in there to soak up the worst of it, so the interior still looks okay :-) really need to get a garage when i buy a house next year though, not happy about damp and old clio tbh!!!lol!!



so bonnet off;



radiator and front coolant pipework out, i will be purchasing an alloy rad and silicone hoses to replace the final ones that aren't silicone yet. This is going to include some custom pipework, which i have made templates for and will be sending off to SFS performance to be made up over the winter :-)



the idea is to remove the downpipe as well as rest of the exhaust system and get a new one made up. i plan to put a flexi section in the downpipe and then get hold of a mongoose or similar and modify it into a full stealth system. all just ideas currently and as such i figured to save scrabbling about on the floor under the car, i'd whip the turbo off the manifold and leave it in situ for now!



parts pulled off for ease of access



and more bits off to get to head bolts



and head off, i cheated and cut the cambelt, hence the top cambelt cover is on ;-)



this is the head/valve/combustion chamber area after 4 years and 16k miles on high boost, not too bad me thinks, seems to be running lovely. small bit of pitting on the exhaust valves and some build up on the inlets, but nothing to write home about.



head gasket, still looks fine from a distance........



but whats this...............fire rings a bit damaged and theres clearly been some blowby as theres striations all across the fire rings



and heres the block.....again pistons seem okay, no build ups and evidence of poor running, and the bores are still lovely.



but if you look closer in the red circles..............cracks........the damn blocks cracked across from the water ways to the head bolt holes.



so it seems that the blocks cracked and the headbolts have lost clamping force, allowing blowby into the coolant system under full boost and as such pressurising the system!

so at least i've found a fault, but its some work now to fix.

plan is:

- send head off for refurb and skim/check inc valves lapped in etc
- get hold of good F7P block, preferably in working order
- check new block, rebuild as necessary with my wossener pistons
- tap oil return
- slap back in for 2012 boosting :-)

more updates as they come!

cheers

Ben

[jamie_clioGTT]

possibly the coolest clio ive seen! deffinetly my favourite at the minute! shame about the block but atleast youve found the problem now. good luck with the rebuild!

[Robbo]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-Cl...item3a6cd1000a



looks cheap

[Coops]

ai

but i'd question why if he bought car for panels, the engine was split for sale, seems alot of effort rather than just selling lump as a whole!

[Matt@CodeRedMotorsports]

Plenty of f7p parts and engines at the workshop mate if you need bits.

[TNT Tricky Nicky]

boost junky on here was giving away a stripped block, might be worth a chat with him

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=24990

[romain-gtt]

hello COOPS !!!

hope you remember me ? we met each other at FCS 2010 i was whith my wife's Gtt and we talk about charge coolers !!!

you've got one of my favorite Clio Turbo !!!!
as i understand you're going to have some work to do on it during this winter !!!!

I wich i can see it at Rtoc nat day 2012 !!!! and we can talk another time !!!!

[steer from the rear]

ive had 2 f7r engines go like that one was a 700 and the other a 710!

what management is it on fast****? as my first engine destroyed the fire rings and they looked like eggs!

the cracks are not in the fire ring area though and they are between the water jackets- its as if renault never cast enough metal in there........i was contemplating getting it welded up and the deck skimmed flat adding material in there but im using my spare block atm so time will tell good luck

bet ur gald its a 2 a penny valver block

[Scoff]

It must be something they addressed with F4R because I've not seen that ever (that obviously but the hex on that then )

Or it could still be a detonation thing and the weakest point of the block is where it's cracked.

[Bass J]

Love this car coops ..if u ever feel the need to sell ...please give me a shout!

[Coops]

Right, it’s been a rubbish winter and I achieved absolutely nothing at all but finally made some progress this weekend

First job was to run up to big rons and liberate his engine crane to return it from retirement in his garage to active duty on my drive! :P

I took way too long gathering stuff and eating pizza upon my return as well, and as such didn’t actually do a stroke till gone 3pm……hey ho, am lazy what can I say!! :lol:
Anyway, after hour or so pissin about wrestling with a couple of studs in the block to box union and moving the box itself across as far as I could, I proceeded to rip the bad boy out the bay! I’ll let the pics do the talking from here on for a bit!

Firstly the poor disco spuddy, been sat taped up like a cheap kinky hooker on my windowsill for months, I think it needs some love, and preferably a load of hot air from an F7P :wink:



Anyway, in went the crane and up came the block









Teased out inch by inch, like a gentleman…… ;-)





And out she came!





Quick oil drain whilst the block was still up in the air



Then boshed it down onto a block of wood for stripping.



At this point, tea and choccy was called for to celebrate a half a job badly done 8)



Then onwards and upwards, first to come off was the clutch assembly and flywheel, both of which will be checked and put onto the new lump. Initial inspection is good, everything appears to be in good working order good times with weapons for all!







Then whipped the pistons out, still looking okay after many miles of hard work and abuse over the past 5 or so years so pretty happy with that! Again, check over and into the new block they shall a be going!!





I’m also pretty happy with the bearings, they’ve held up fine over the years and show very little in terms of wear so overall the engines coping well with the power, it was just the headbolt hole cracks that have caused an issue, the internals are all minty mint 



And that’s it, the old F7P is laid to rest, I may pull the crank out as well then I’m
scrapping it…………or maybe I’ll make it into a table for my shed at the new house! Who knows! Seems a shame to bin it, little troopers seen me round a few tracks and spanking 12’s at pod, we’ve been through a lot together. And it was the cars original engine from the factory, 18 years in its one home, GTT’s bay!





The bores looked pretty good too, still see the pikie in situ honing marks from last rebuild!



So that’s the progress. I have new block tapped and decked, ready to be slapped with a dab of enamel then I can sling all the bits onto it and slide her home back into the bay, which I may give a spruce up too if they lift the pipe ban (its rained none stop for like a month, surely its damp enough now to let me wash the cars!) and the heads now done as well, so pretty much all the parts are in my possession, its just a question of getting it all done for FCS!

Final bits n bats, how to solve a lack of storage space issue, clio shed ftw!



And I have my new exhaust ready and waiting to go on as well



Shiny!



That’s all folks!

Cheers

Ben

[R5TURBORON]

sweeeeeeeeeeeeet and about time looking forward to going for a blast out with you when its finished

[Tutuur]

finally some progress in there mate! are those f4r rods?

hope you get it finished in time! and what's the new power goal?

maybe you remember me asking a lot of questions about turbo'ing?
you might want to check out the project section for my R9 with F7R low boost conversion

[Coops]

ai i've noseyed over the r9 mate, looks a right project :-)

nah they are F7 rods, and i'm using standard F7 rods again

no scope for more power, i'm rebuilding to the same spec as its got power enough for my uses ;-)

[Tutuur]

hhhmmmm strange! this pic is from James5:



F4R on the piston and the other one is F7R

well, 280bhp is enough indeed

[Coops]

nope, other way round, one on the piston is a F7P or F7R williams, one on the right is F4R or megane F7R rod

[James5]

nope, other way round, one on the piston is a F7P or F7R williams, one on the right is F4R or megane F7R rod

[Tutuur]

That explains alot! The only F lump i torn apart is the Megane one so thought the thinner ones would be the F7's.

And now i wonder: Would the old F7 rods withstand more abuse?

[Scoff]

nope, other way round, one on the piston is a F7P or F7R williams, one on the right is F4R or megane F7R rod

Tutuur, I thought I saw F4 rods in your pictures ? You definately want F7 rods (shown with piston fitted in picture above). The thin F4 rods are not strong at all.

[Coops]

no ones tested one to destruction i dont think, the F4's i think scoff bent/fubared at 450 odd bhp i think it was?

the materials and methods used on the F4 are much newer, so they are likely to be a better rod overall

[Tutuur]

Well as i just have learnt 10 mins ago Megane F7 rods are the same as F4 rods

However i'm not going to tear the engine apart now, my goal is 250bhp so i'll see what the rods can handle

[Scoff]

no ones tested one to destruction i dont think, the F4's i think scoff bent/fubared at 450 odd bhp i think it was?

the materials and methods used on the F4 are much newer, so they are likely to be a better rod overall

I snapped one, but the other 3 came out very bent, so I think even at 350hp they would not be advisable. The Megane 225 uses the same rods, and most tuners advise that rods are upgraded above 300hp.

I don't think the material will be much different though ? more likely renault wanted to save weight.

[Scoff]

Well as i just have learnt 10 mins ago Megane F7 rods are the same as F4 rods

However i'm not going to tear the engine apart now, my goal is 250bhp so i'll see what the rods can handle

Oh I see, so is the Williams F7 rods the thicker type ? I assumed that Megane F7 would be the same as Williams F7. it seems not ?

You will be fine at 250hp

[Tutuur]

That makes me wonder how much the F7's could take!
Would be a cheap step up for Megane's in that case!

Edit: i'm sure i will. (would want to get more but it's sort of a gearbox 'reliability' thing)

Yes apparently the F7r 710 has the same rods as F4r's

[Scoff]

That makes me wonder how much the F7's could take!
Would be a cheap step up for Megane's in that case!

Edit: i'm sure i will. (would want to get more but it's sort of a gearbox 'reliability' thing)

Yes apparently the F7r 710 has the same rods as F4r's

Thank you, I learnt something new there. It is good to know

[Os8472]

Yes apparently the F7r 710 has the same rods as F4r's

Now that's interesting, when I took the stock rods out of my F7R 710 megane engine and compared them to stock F7P rods from a clio valver they were the same, I'll have to dig them out and take a pic

[Coops]

perhaps theres some crossover

from my investigations the megane F7R are same as the clio/megane F4R rods and the clio F7R (i.e. williams) are the same as the clio F7P rods

either way both me and Dan run standard F7P (fat) rods and have done for a combined mileage of probably about 40k between us on high boost with Rolling road results between 253 and 333 bhp and 1/4 miles at 12.8-12.3@110-117mph if that helps to judge how strong they are.

[Tutuur]

i thought you had 285bhp?
did you crank up the boost or is it just a very positive roller?

still stocking GB's btw?

[Coops]

still stocking GB's btw?

???

there is massive indescrepancies on mine and Dan's RR results, I've had several ranging from 253-285 all on the same boost and he's had an even bigger range of 250-333 on the same boost!lol!

also his 1/4 p/b is .5s slower than mine, mines the 12.3@117, he's done a 12.8@110 I think it was, so this doesn't match the RR results either.

basically, we both run 16psi peak (14 steady) and that gave the above results over past couple of years, lol! if you can work it out, answers on a post card.

[Tutuur]

Well, most important is how it feels anyway!
Gb: gearbox

[Coops]

nah none on stock currently, just the one that's on it

am thinking of buying a new motor soon anyway so the 172 will probably get broken for parts, in which case i'll keep that box as a spare!

[Os8472]

Quick question Coops, your turbo oil feed, did you use the 1 way valve Renault fitted to the C1J turbo oil feed or is yours just direct to the turbo from the top of the oil pump housing?

[Coops]

Quick question Coops, your turbo oil feed, did you use the 1 way valve Renault fitted to the C1J turbo oil feed or is yours just direct to the turbo from the top of the oil pump housing?

direct from oil pump mate from a t-piece to the oil pressure sensor hole in the block

[Os8472]

direct from oil pump mate from a t-piece to the oil pressure sensor hole in the block

Was hoping you were gunna say that, I used the 1 way valve with my old turbo but it put the feed worryingly close to manifold :/ I'll do away with it and see how I get on

[Coops]

theres no reason i can see you would need it, why would there be back pressure in that system? and the turbo should have more than enough oil in to spool down from idle speed, and thats the only reason i can see needing one, during operation i cant imagine it does feck all

[Coops]

So, the weather was acceptable and the hard work was behind me after last weekends scrap to get the....well scrap....out the bay J

As such I spent the day ripping the parts out of the old lump that I needed, the rods and pistons, and sorting out the remaining components to bolt onto the new block.

for the first time in cooper enterprises history, I decided to give the lot a lick of paint as well to make it look a bit tidier, admittedly it wont go any quicker looking shiny, but hey, pride in your work and all that! J

So, on with the pics, afterall that's what these threads are all about, sexy shiny engines in various states of assembly and spangly mods to bolt on!

First of all I split the old block down and removed my pistons and rods ready to be fitted to the new block, I also have these standard items kicking about now as spares J

sump off, oil pump out and main bearing caps removed so I could lift the crank out, again I'm keeping this for spares in case I need it as there's nowt wrong with it, good used crank, one careless turbo owner ;-)

and bare cracked block ready for scrappage or ressurection. I really cant part with it so I have a feeling it shall be reborn as a coffee table for the new house J

I then set about cleaning up the new block, removed the sump for painting and to allow me to access the crank to fit the rods etc

and the plan unfolds, time for a lick of paint me thinks!

first coat on and done, I ended up doing 2 coats on engine and the sump

painted some other random bits as well, pic of one here but you get the idea, its all black!lol!

then used this

to put in these... (no wussy ring compressors either, I just used me mitts ;-)

and torqued up the end caps as well after running about trying to find the darn haynes manual!lol!

and no, no ARP bolts, I intend to build up a fully forged bottom end over next year so this is basically an intermin build on a shoestring ;-)

new cambelt kit from which I took the idler pully and affixed it to the block, along with new water pump that was on the old block (did about 5 miles on it!lol)

lunch break J

and the finished article, all built up and ready to be dropped in next weekend!

cheers

Coops

[Tutuur]

nice progress mate!

you might want to check that crank seal though. looks like it's in a bit too deep.
mine was leaking all over the place! so replaced it for a new one and didn't stamp it in that deep...

[R5TURBORON]

Nice work mate take it you want to use my crane again :-p

[Coops]

if that's okay mate?! :-) was thinking this weekend coming if that's cool?

u sorted turbo housing yet?

[HAndy]

looking good mr coops , any more engine mods this year, stand alone , bigger blower and more boost

[Coops]

no mate, alas its just a shoestring rebuild, in the process of house purchase and 172 daily needs replacing this year too, so no spare change am afraid

[Os8472]

Looking good fella

[Coops]

Right, quick update from last weekend progress before I crack on again today…….. although this is mainly as its still drizzling and I cba going out and getting wet today!lol!

Made some good progress over bank holiday…..well I say over, basically I got drunk a lot so pretty much just spent Saturday early afternoon on it really! Few hours is all but got some big bits done so good times!

First job, build the head back up, so on went fresh gasket and exhaust manifold, then the turbo. I only put those two on as it means less work once heads on, turbo fitting is fiddly in situ, and by leaving inlet off I can have freedom to move engine about a lot in the bay to do the cam belt and also fit rest of the front of the car in, pipes etc







Fitted a shiny new tensioner pulley from the cambelt kit.



Then quick wipe over the mating faces on the block and head and head gasket on, locating it on the 2x dowels I transferred from the old block to the new. The gasket is a spesso 1.6mm Kevlar jobbie I got from big ron for the right money a while back, hence using it. Otherwise I’d probably of just used a standard payen or equivalent.



So then it was a simple lift and drop to get the head onto the bottom end and line it up on the locating dowels. I then slapped in the nicely lightly greased headbolts and wound them in and out to clear the threads. Then wiped off and reapplied the grease for final introduction to the engine. Nipped up then angled tightened to finish off







Proceeded to then fit the turbo oil feed/pressure sensor assembly and connect it up and also the oil return. I had already fitted the starter motor and slotted the downpipe in before the head was fitted. Also connected all the rear wiring loom up before head went in and popped dogbone mounting plate half on to give me some wiggle room.





Then ensured the engine was still locked correctly at TDC (I locked it prior to head fitment to ensure valves cleared the pistons wheni torqued the head down) and stuck the cambelt on, lining up all the marks on the pulleys, belt and cam cover





Then turned the engine over a couple of times to check timing was okay and no valve clearance issues etc. all smooth and good pleased to report. Kept going until timing marks were re-aligned.



By this point it was time to give up as I wanted to go the pub  as such packed up again, using the bay as a shed once more!lol!



Then wombled up to watch a local heavy rock band play called Three Second Fuse (3.S.F.) at the pub, if your into that kind of stuff, facebook them, they’re damn good imo! Few ales and some tunes later, impromptu jam session ;-)





That’s it for now!

Cheers

Ben

[Coops]

and todays progress :-)

am off out again so no time for waffle commentary but heres how she stands ;-)

lots of niggle bits to do and all of the exhaust system

also found out i've misplaced a load of parts, stat housing, dizzy, lifitng eye/acc cable carrier and spark plugs all gone walkies so progress will stall tomorrow once rest of the bits are on and done :-(

cheers

Ben

pics:

[Matt Cole]

You re used the rings for the new block?

[Coops]

yes mate, i loves to be a pikie

[allanr5gtt]

very interesting thread. good job
did you use dished std piston or forged ones? also what compression are you running?
thanks allan

[Coops]

just rebuilt the engine using my old forged pistons, runs about 8:1 but no idea with any accuracy exactly what she runs :-)

[Coops]

right, she lives!

spent most of today running about acquiring the final bits i needed as somehow i misplaced my stat housing and some other bits, but Dan helped me out with the parts i needed :-)

so after a run up to his i started about 3pm with actual work, cupla hours later she looked thusly





so time to crank it over and make some pressure in the oil system..................................fail...... ...couldnt get it to take for love nor money, no oil through the pump pickup.

big ron was over as well and after attempting to back fill the pump through the turbo oil feed and an hour or so of messing about i gave up :-( Ron went home and i packed away........

but couldnt resist, so i splapped the king lead on and the fuel pump feed and just fired it up.....for a millisecond and turned it off. repeated it again and second time the oil warning light flickered off....YES!!!!

so whipped king off and fuel pump and cranked it, and low and behold i got pressure in the system in a couple of cranks after the fire up!

vids of fail then win!lol!!! had to jump it as the battery was totally dead, excuse the loudness, no exhaust system atm so straight out the downpipe!





and this is how it stands now



chuffed its all running, had a bit of a fail as my oil cooler sandwich plate pipework was pissing oil out, nipped up and sorted, but i still have a water leak to find and fix but overall its working! got clutch and gears and brakes as well.

so few more hours tinkering and sorting stuff and it'll be MOT time :-)

cheers

Ben

[R5TURBORON]

:-D glad you finally got pressure mate was a nice drive home playing on the A38 lol