URGENT F7P help PLEASE!

[MikeA]

Right, got a second MOT on Friday and things are still going wrong.

Basically, getting spark at the king lead but not to the HT leads after the dizzy. The rotar arm and cap are basically new so shouldn't be a problem. Checked the HT leads for spark but nothing, even tried spare leads and plugs and still nothing.

Ended up setting TDC and the rotar arm seems to be sitting either JUST before or just after the terminal in the distributor cap. Its close.

Now, bit of history, before the first MOT the car had a dead battery and I was running late and couldnt push bump so ended up doing a tow bump start. Could this excessive/aggressive bump set the timing a tooth out? If so is that enough in the F7P to bend a valve stem or do other damage?!

I'm desperate for some advice and suggestions! I'm running out of time quickly!

Thanks in advance.

Mike

[Os8472]

Right first thing first have you got the battery charged/replaced?

Take the dizzy cap off and someone to turn engine over and see if the rotor arm is turning

[MikeA]

Sorry you're right, should have said. Battery is fine and the rotar arm spins fine.

[James5]

Sorry you're right, should have said. Battery is fine and the rotar arm spins fine.

If you have spark to the king lead and none out of the dizzy cap / ht leads that does point to knackered dizzy / rota or HT leads as you have spark at the king.

Have you checked the dizzy contacts within to make sure no moisture and not covered in dirt.

[MikeA]

Yeah dizzy is fine with clean terminals. Arm and dizzy are basically new. My concern is that at TDC the arm doesn't seem to line up right with the inside terminal of the dizzy. Worried the timing is off and it's missing.

[Os8472]

If you have spark to the king lead and none out of the dizzy cap / ht leads that does point to knackered dizzy / rota or HT leads as you have spark at the king.

Have you checked the dizzy contacts within to make sure no moisture and not covered in dirt.

A blast of carb cleaner and a rag should clean it up if need be.

Take the king lead off and 1 at a time use the ht leads direct from the coil to test them, if they come up ok then its defo the rotor or dizzy cap

[James5]

Yeah dizzy is fine with clean terminals. Arm and dizzy are basically new. My concern is that at TDC the arm doesn't seem to line up right with the inside terminal of the dizzy. Worried the timing is off and it's missing.

So you are thinking the timing is out thus put the rotor arm out if position.

Easy thing to check the timing is to remove the cam pulley cover and rotate the engine on the 19mm crank pulley bolt so that the cam puilley markings align up with the markings on the cam cover and make sure the flywheel TDC marking lines up with 0 on the gearbox bell housing, if they align up fine your timing is fine.

A blast of carb cleaner and a rag should clean it up if need be.

Take the king lead off and 1 at a time use the ht leads direct from the coil to test them, if they come up ok then its defo the rotor or dizzy cap

[5teve L]

Scrape the contacts up on the dizzy cap with a flat head screwdriver, they sometimes scale up & also run a flat head across the rotor arm contact, just to be sure it's not dizzy.
& also check cam timing as you say, if it's slipped one you may get away with it but I know the valves are close so you may not
I assume you haven't got an immobilizer, not sure how that would cut the dizzy spark though.. so prob not that.

[MikeA]

So you are thinking the timing is out thus put the rotor arm out if position.

Easy thing to check the timing is to remove the cam pulley cover and rotate the engine on the 19mm crank pulley bolt so that the cam puilley markings align up with the markings on the cam cover and make sure the flywheel TDC marking lines up with 0 on the gearbox bell housing, if they align up fine your timing is fine.

Yeah I'm worried the rotar arm is sitting wrong cause the timing is off. I was just making sure I haven missed something obvious before taking the side of the block off.

[MikeA]

A blast of carb cleaner and a rag should clean it up if need be.

Take the king lead off and 1 at a time use the ht leads direct from the coil to test them, if they come up ok then its defo the rotor or dizzy cap

Yeah we did that. Even used some spare 'good' HT leads. Still got nothing. And I know that would suggest it's either a knackered dizzy or arm but they are off of a running car. Also the more we discuss it the more I'm convinced its a timing issue as I just dont think its right how the arm is sitting at TDC. As I said though, it's very close though. Gonna check the pulleys tonight. REALLY hope nothings been damaged if it did slip a tooth.

[Os8472]

Yeah we did that. Even used some spare 'good' HT leads. Still got nothing. And I know that would suggest it's either a knackered dizzy or arm but they are off of a running car. Also the more we discuss it the more I'm convinced its a timing issue as I just dont think its right how the arm is sitting at TDC. As I said though, it's very close though. Gonna check the pulleys tonight. REALLY hope nothings been damaged if it did slip a tooth.

I think u miss undrrstood what i meant, take the king lead off the coil and 1 of ht leads in its place with a plug in the end.

You said earlier you were getting a spark on the king lead but nothing after that, so if you test each ht lead direct off the coil and got nothing then the leads are shot

[Miller]

The leads are good, we tested the king lead with the original one and a new lead I had and both had spark. We then put the original king lead on and pluged the other new lead into each terminal with the same plug and no spark.

I have cleaned the inside of the cap and also the rotor to remove the very small amount of carbon that was there. What we noticed was sometimes when we initially tried to start, it would fire once but nothing after that, I was thinking it must just depend on where the rotar was sitting after the last attempt.

Tonight I will take off the covers and have a look, do I need to take off the top engine mount to get acces to the top timing cover when this engine is in the Clio?

Cheers
Chris

[James5]

Yeah top engine mount on the clio will need to come off should be metal pulley cover on the clio. Just support the engine underneath with wooden block and trolley jack on the sump.

Timing the engine is easy if needed to be done, as said earlier align the cam pulley arrows with the cam cover indents, and make sure the fly tdc marking is @ 0 or you could remove the bolt on the front of the block and lock the crank @ TDC.

[5teve L]

Some times James has this prob on his, it is usually flooded.
Unplug injectors, turn over till it fires, replace injector plugs.

This may not be the same prob though as you say no spark but it's worth testing.

But I would just check cam timing before turning it over just in case you have slipped a tooth.

[James5]

Some times James has this prob on his, it is usually flooded.
Unplug injectors, turn over till it fires, replace injector plugs.

This may not be the same prob though as you say no spark but it's worth testing.

But I would just check cam timing before turning it over just in case you have slipped a tooth.

Worth a try

[MikeA]

Thanks guys!

[James5]

Thanks guys!

Keep is all posted on outcome

[MikeA]

RIGHT...so still not running. Losing my patience.

Heres an update. Now getting a spark past the cap but not starting. Spark seems weak though?

Brand new dizzy cap and rotar arm fitted

Brand new plugs

Tried 3 different TDC sensors (none new though)

Fuel gets to the rail when priming and cranking over

Coil works (measured resistance at 0.8 ohm, believe Hanes says between .4 and .8 is right)

Battery fully charged

Immobiliser is disabled

Timing has been checked and is spot on.

Tried squirting some 'easy start' into the throttle body and still no start - did kind of missfire

WHAT THE HELL COULD IT BE!! Its getting fuel and spark and power!

Am I right in thinking there is no way to manually adjust the ignition timing on the distributer? My understanding is its set from factory in the ECU.

Could the ECU be screwed?

I did note on other models there is some kind of ground wire coming out the top of the AEI which I dont have. There are three plugs in a row and I only have two and ones missing. Sorry, dont have a picture - Im assuming it doesnt need it though as the car ran before with out it.

As always thanks guys, ANY suggestions would be welcome no matter how random at this point. Was suppose to bringing it down so i could be in a renault at WRS but not looking good.

[Bigfoot]

Your saying fuel is getting to the fuel rail but is the injectors actually firing the fuel in? is there enough fuel pressure there for it to run?

[5teve L]

Next thing is take a plug out & see if it's wet with fuel, either it's flooded or it's not seeing any fuel = no bang = no starty..
Either that or pull the rail off with the injectors, lay the lot on top of the engine on some cardboard, pull off king lead & crank over to see if there is fuel to the injectors..if not IIRC there is a relay for the injectors so you could try swapping relays about ..

[James5]

My 5 was doing a very similar thing when I first done the conversion into my 5 gtt I had spark and fuel to the rail, engine turned over fine but just wouldn't start turned out to be knackered relays. Try and replace them with any 5 pin relay if you have some working GTT relays about use them

[MikeA]

Cheers for the advice guys.

I didn't have time this evening to take the rail out but I did take out one of the plugs (which are brand new) and the tip def smelt of petrol. I know thats a pretty primitive test though. I also tried a spare coil just incase and put on the new TDC sensor. Besides the very occasion misfire there's still nothing. It still seems like the timing is off.

I did try replacing the relay for the ecu with an old relay (I think - middle in the back row?) but didn't have my hanes with me so didn't know what the other ones were. I might try picking up a few relays tomorrow.

Assuming though it's getting spark and fuel to the spark and the relays are good is there ANYTHING else people could recommend. I'm worried I get there tomorrow, change the relays and still nothing and i push the car off a cliff!

If it's any help (prob should have said this first) the last time the car was running it was idling after being bump started and drivin for 15 minutes. It was idling for a about ten minutes and just cut out with a hissing sound. Just cut straight out. That was the start of it all.

I want my 5 back guess I better buy a raffle ticket and hope for a miracle.

[James5]

Cheers for the advice guys.

I didn't have time this evening to take the rail out but I did take out one of the plugs (which are brand new) and the tip def smelt of petrol. I know thats a pretty primitive test though. I also tried a spare coil just incase and put on the new TDC sensor. Besides the very occasion misfire there's still nothing. It still seems like the timing is off.

I did try replacing the relay for the ecu with an old relay (I think - middle in the back row?) but didn't have my hanes with me so didn't know what the other ones were. I might try picking up a few relays tomorrow.

Assuming though it's getting spark and fuel to the spark and the relays are good is there ANYTHING else people could recommend. I'm worried I get there tomorrow, change the relays and still nothing and i push the car off a cliff!

If it's any help (prob should have said this first) the last time the car was running it was idling after being bump started and drivin for 15 minutes. It was idling for a about ten minutes and just cut out with a hissing sound. Just cut straight out. That was the start of it all.

I want my 5 back guess I better buy a raffle ticket and hope for a miracle.

Have you taken the 4 injector leads off yet and then started the engine with the injector leads unplugged??

[5teve L]

Check relays
Check injectors are firing
compression test
& we are assuming the fuel pump isn't low output, ie knackered & not pushing 3 bar
Also, as I said earlier, James has a problem sometimes if his doesn't catch that it floods & we found the only way to start was to unplug injectors & crank it till it fired, then replace the injector plugs.
Is the fuel old & manky ie low octane ?
Just thinking of things I'd try really, can't see it being timing if you checked it & it did run.
Only other thing after this is to get a phase 1 ecu to try.

[MikeA]

Im going to check all the relays tonight.

Havent taken off the injector leads yet.

Guess Im just assuming the fuel pump is fine pressure wise.

I have a feeling its the ECU - was reading an article today about someone with a similar problem and turned out the ECUs have a tendency to build up moisture and weaken connections...well...mine was pretty damn wet! Whoever had the car before me, left the bracket out and put the box in upside down which meant the bolt holes just let water in. I open the ECU and let the board dry...maybe something got disturbed. I was pretty careful though. The guy on the thread said he just had someone retouch the solders and it was fine. Don tknow though. Im getting desperate.

[James5]

Im going to check all the relays tonight.

Havent taken off the injector leads yet.

Guess Im just assuming the fuel pump is fine pressure wise.

I have a feeling its the ECU - was reading an article today about someone with a similar problem and turned out the ECUs have a tendency to build up moisture and weaken connections...well...mine was pretty damn wet! Whoever had the car before me, left the bracket out and put the box in upside down which meant the bolt holes just let water in. I open the ECU and let the board dry...maybe something got disturbed. I was pretty careful though. The guy on the thread said he just had someone retouch the solders and it was fine. Don tknow though. Im getting desperate.

Do the injector leads first tonight and then if that fails relay's and then see if you can source or borrow a phase 1 valver ECU or a 19 ecu

[5teve L]

I have a phase 1 R19 16v ecu, not sure if it will work on a clio or not, it worked on James' car.

[MikeA]

I have a phase 1 R19 16v ecu, not sure if it will work on a clio or not, it worked on James' car.

Was too rushed to get the injectors or rail out last night but tried all the relays and quickly pulled out the plugs one by one and cranked it, petrol mist sprayed out so Im assuming injectors are fine.

SO its either the fuel pump like you guys suggested or the ECU, which looks pretty spent.

Are you going to WRS this weekend Steve? I would LOVE to try your ECU just to put my mind at ease. What do you think?

Cheers.

[James5]

Was too rushed to get the injectors or rail out last night but tried all the relays and quickly pulled out the plugs one by one and cranked it, petrol mist sprayed out so Im assuming injectors are fine.

SO its either the fuel pump like you guys suggested or the ECU, which looks pretty spent.

Are you going to WRS this weekend Steve? I would LOVE to try your ECU just to put my mind at ease. What do you think?

Cheers.

Well you know you are getting fuel to the bores are the sparkies soaked?

You need to just take the 4 plugs of the injectors it could merely be flooded as said my car does this sometime's. With the plugs off crank engine and she should start and run for a few sec's on the fuel in the bore's and then die as it burn's of the fuel in the bore's put the injector plugs back on and start the car works perfect again.

Only takes a few sec's to pull the 4 injector activation plugs off.

Steve's R19 Ecu worked on my 5 which is running phase 1 clio setup, primed the pump and ran my car

[MikeA]

Well you know you are getting fuel to the bores are the sparkies soaked?

You need to just take the 4 plugs of the injectors it could merely be flooded as said my car does this sometime's. With the plugs off crank engine and she should start and run for a few sec's on the fuel in the bore's and then die as it burn's of the fuel in the bore's put the injector plugs back on and start the car works perfect again.

Only takes a few sec's to pull the 4 injector activation plugs off.

Ummmm ok ok you caught me...I dont know which are the injector activation plugs Im still learning and Chris is busy this week so Im left to fend for myself. The engines Ive have been learning on have been with carbs, i was going to move on the fuel injected later....but then this all happened!

Is it easy to check. I saw the four lines that come over the fuel rail and go into a plug looking terminal but that about it.

[5teve L]

James just means the plugs that go into the injectors, simply unplug all 4 of them, crank over, if it fires & dies then replace the plugs & try again.
I'm not @ RWS unfortunatly but if someone fairly local is going & wants to meet me somewhere I can drop it to them to bring.

[James5]

James just means the plugs that go into the injectors, simply unplug all 4 of them, crank over, if it fires & dies then replace the plugs & try again.
I'm not @ RWS unfortunatly but if someone fairly local is going & wants to meet me somewhere I can drop it to them to bring.

Sorry yeah they are the grey push on and pull of connectors that come of the 4 cables that got to the injectors

[MikeA]

James just means the plugs that go into the injectors, simply unplug all 4 of them, crank over, if it fires & dies then replace the plugs & try again.
I'm not @ RWS unfortunatly but if someone fairly local is going & wants to meet me somewhere I can drop it to them to bring.

Thanks again Steve. Gotta love this club when it comes together! Ive put up a thread asking if anyone could meet you but Im not getting my hopes up.

Thanks again though.

[MikeA]

Sorry yeah they are the grey push on and pull of connectors that come of the 4 cables that got to the injectors

Ah yeah ok, I saw those but didnt want to go tugging on them

So with those off the engine (in theory) would start (assuming it was flooded) and run till that left over fuel was gone?

Also....last night when I started it it backfired SO loud and a big misfire and puff of smoke came out the throttlebody. Wouldnt that still indicate its a timing issue? Im convinced its this sh*tty swamped ECU.

Cheers.

[James5]

Anymore updates Mike? Did you find the problem?

[MikeA]

Anymore updates Mike? Did you find the problem?

Nothing. Bought some new relays thats about it. Had to put it on hold to get ready for WRS. But I did buy an ECU off of a fellow member today so that will either fix it or help rule out another thing!

I will post an update soon!

[MikeA]

Well...what can I say...

FINALLY got the little b45t4rd started.

I bought a new battery (needed one anyway) and new bat terminals and put them in/on. Then checked the a/b wires going from the TDC sensor plug that was cut off to the ecu (just make sure everything was right) and checked they were the right way round. And still nothing. So made sure it wasnt flooded like you guys suggested, took the injector plugs off, still nothing.

Thought we should double check the spark again...NOTHING! not even a weak one now. So we started checking all the grounds, cleaning them and greasing them. Finally got to the AEI ground and stumbled upon something interesting. Whoever installed the immobiliser stuck their ground there by jamming it behind the standard AEI on. Not only that but the nut was finger loose hence the inconsistent spark and spark strength. So took off their ground, took off the AEI cleaned everywhere it touched and put everything back together....guess what...PROPER SPARK NOW!!

Went to start it, nothing. Chris then thought I might have put the leads on the dizzy cap backwards so wanted to double check the rotor arm spun anti-clockwise...well...turns out I didnt give the rotor arm a good last push and it wasnt on right

Then...

SO looks like it was genuinely a number of things but mainly the ground for the AEI. Typical. But the dizzy cap WAS fecked and had no contacts left...literally nothing. And the starter motor brushes (whatever they are called inside) were worn down to nothing and it had the wrong TDC sensor in (with 3 sketch twisted connections in one wire!) and the neg battery terminal was dodgy. etc etc

SO all in all those things desperately needed changed and the loom still needs tidied up but thanks for all the help guys. ESPECIALLY Chris Miller.

Also bought a second hand ECU off a member (he said it was off a working car and I have no reason not to believe him) but it didnt seem to work, the fuel pump wont even prime with it?! Turns out my old ECU was fine. The 'new' seems in good nick, no blatant water damage/corrosion etc. Dont know what it could be.

Anyway, now fingers crossed for the MOT!

[Coops]

spare ecu could be a phase 2, with an immobiliser, so wont work with your loom

[Chunk]

What a nightmare! Glad you got it sorted!