21 turbo tuning

[Haz]

i've joined the 21toc.com thinking there may be loads of info on engine upgrades and shed some light on places to get bits . . i was wrong. seems there is a few lads who have pushed the bondaries in the past then moved onto other things. a couple of them are still on there but are trying to direct me down tried and tested routes without offering actual specs or where to get bits, at best copyin what has been done before. tried google and the likes and got odd snippets and pics of both std and europa cars but nothin that really helps. i know there's been some members on here who's had them so just wonderin if there's anyone who has any good sources of info really, past projects etc, thanks

[andybond]

Haz ,

Small world.

The reason they are using tried and tested methods is exactly that. They are erm , tried and tested.

The routes that have been explored by our members and the continental ones have resulted in the info you are being given.

If you want to go down the europacup/superproduction is quite a closely guarded secret for the specs. Never mind the cost of the parts. The helical intercooler pipe for example is £100. The europa/super parts are mental in price.

I searched the 21toc and the following came up

Turbo was a Garrett T31 with a TO4e 46trin compressor and cover, 0.63a/r turbine housing and Cosworth style 2.75" 3 bolt outlet.

uprated internals such as steel crank

different subframe and wishbones to allow them to fit coilovers

[Haz]

i did wonder how many 21toc members may be rtocer's too

tbh if people ask about volvo set-ups, i'll tell them my prefered method, because i know it works and yet to be improved upon (without pending alot more). . i think?
i thought there would be a few set methods regardin setup but i've read as much as i could on the forum from the last few years and there wasn't anythin like what i wanted to do, i suppose jo's is similar but he doesn't seem to want to answer my questions, just side tracks?? not really learnt anything new since my post
just expected there to be more info like on here, you have prefered cams and set-ups tried and tested, but theres also the specs of cams used and timing, specs of turbo's and boost levels, carb jet sizes etc, ok i dont expect every last detail.
maybe i should have asked wat would suit the way i want the car to drive?

i didn't want to upset the fans but the europacup cars where tuned 20years ago with now 20year old technology, admittedly really nice, i dont know alot about them nor looked into them a great deal, as like you mention the are rare and expensive but its nice to see how something is done to give pointers to things that are similar, maybe not work quite as well but better than std, even if the "secrets" aren't revealed. But look at the specs of 5's now, way and beyond cup spec and can be hand alot cheaper without the "cup" brand label. althought in originality terms i completely understand why people want them, thats just not me lol

hmmm, now i didn't see that, is there other info like that from years ago as only looked at suff to about 2007? thanks, its pics like that i was looking for

[andybond]

Hi fella ,

I didnt mean my post to come across as a scolding - it wasnt meant that way.

Regarding the superproduction engines noone has come close to equalling its power or torque. It was so ahead and so radical at the time and comprised of excellent design and ingenuity. The parts are eyewatering.

The kick in the knacker for the 21t in the UK is noone really released anything for them. Prima ( hoho! ) made a bodykit that fella apart and a twin dump valve fitment and thats about it.

Literally , all the UK lads have banged in a 276 cam , larger injectors , large FMIC and upped the boost to a safe ( ish ) 18psi.

Jo has gone further , this is his specced engine when he sold it.

2.0 L turbo engine J7R 756 ph2 bottomend: not 1 oildrip or leak : 15000 km since build
-balanced crank, new bearings
-cup rods (balanced-all the same weight-knive-edged)
-steel cupliners
-wossner 88 cup pistons
-2x cam; 276° Piper and 280° politechnic cam (soft setup)
-stronger valvesprings
-new oilseams
-cup followers
-575 cc siemens deka injectors
-12 bar FPR, double membram and braided hoses
-std inletmanifold
-55 mm tb
-cup plenum
-3 bar mapsensor
-ecu with plug in, fastchip programma for both cams
-magnecor leads
-laser platinum sparkplugs
-std exhaustmanifold
-Garrett GT3071R
-Forge actuator for GTseries
-Ultimate wastegate with 3” Vband connector
-adjusted headshield to fit the 3” downpipe
-30 row oilcooler + braided hosed and couplers
-K&N extrme induction with 3” silicon bend
-cup solid waterpipes (under turbo) and GrN hoses on the waterconnection, no auxpump.
-AP racing 4 paddle clutch and cup cover, new bearing
-Samco/SFS hoses here and there

-GrN enginemounts
-3” downpipe incl 2 bungs for O2 sensors or something similar, 3”flex , 2.5” reducer and 2.5” Vband to connect the exhaust , extra support to gb (5mm)
-Scorpion exhaust, 2.5” no midsilencers, just backbox, used to be the dtm but rebuild to oval

-As said, all the equipment arround the engine is max 15.000 km (9300 miles) old. (105Amp alternator, GrN startermotor lightweight, waterpump a.o)
Timingbelt changed every 5000 km (lol) and always used 10w60 castrol RS.

I may have forgotten some things. Figures with the pipercam, 343.5 bhp/ 479 Nm-353LbFt and with the techniprofil cam wich is fitted atm: 300 bhp / 443 Nm-327LbFt, paperwork incl.
This set up never missed a beat ! Did serious investments in development, research and testing. Im after 4750 € for the lot wich is a bargin in my humble opinion.

I have seen it on a UK dyno doing more than the 300bhp ( 313 IIRC ? )

Jo will have put far , far more than €4750 in that engine I can tell you that for nowt !
This is jos engine

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Cup cams are supposed to be the following duration 285/290 ( some say around 300 deg tho )
GrN, 29.6/34.7/34.7/29.6

http://21toc.com/attachment.php?atta...7&d=1300998221

up cr is 7:1 and got a lower deckhight. Also, the cup didnt used the T3 but T4 (.63 exh and .70 compressor) on the first cars and afterwards mechanics/engineers swapped this with T34 cossiestyle. When the cupraces where over and the cars whent to privateers and collectors the turbos where swapped for T34's with .48 and .55 turbines. For example, Mick with the yellow cup runs on the T34 with std 48 housing with 70 compressor. He also bought the cup from Gino (france) with the bull exhaustmanifold and morette style headlights, wich was fitted with the T4.

If your chasing big power , Jo has moved onto a 2.2Turbo engine - I dont know a lot about it tbh.

Other folks ( Sibley ) is going to be ( eventually ) trying a 12v head on a 8v block. I know nothing more than that..

I hope that helps dude !

[Scoff]

Hi Andy

Haz has been telling me about his engine plans of late. He's told me what he wants to do and roughly what the budget is, etc.

Making power is the easy bit I think. That might sound like I havn't given the topic enough consideration but actually I genuinely think it'll be pretty easy, except the tricky bit is that because neither of us have a great deal of experience with the engine we don't know how tough the liners, pistons, rods (and so) on are.

No doubt many people will have views based on their own experiences but we need to gauge how strong things really are - not at what boost someones engine failed because it ran lean or because it detonated - and that seems to be hard info to find.

Haz has hashed out a rough idea of what he wants on/in the engine so far comprising a T04E/T3 0.63ar, large cooler and maybe I'll think up a cam profile for it. Re-programming the EFI is no problem so we just have to hope that the engine internals can give us what we're asking of them. I guess we'll find out the messy way if they dont. But my experience of similar engines is that they'll take a lot more than people might think as long as the tune is kept very safe.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to get involved with this one since it's about the only Renault turbo engine that I havn't experimented with or mapped !

Chris

[Haz]

oh no mate, no offence taken, just expected to see thread with details, specs or pics from projects of the past. tony has mentioned what jo's involvement has been so i was hoping he would provided some info and findings that have been tried. and if no-one has come close to the europacup then he cant have tried everything lol. tis good info your finding tho

did see jo's spec on his for sale ad, can understand its a big spec engine but have seen similar spec'd engine gtt engine, and then some virtually stock lumps pushin the same power. like scoff says, its finding the limit, read alot about cracked liners, its a weak point at the ends of 1 and 4, but how many gtt's used to do that before wideband, det cans.

grateful for any info about and i'll post updates on there as i go along, as it seems there are a few others interested too. i'm not after chasing big power, i'm just after a pmt power increase and see what can be done on a budget to keep me smilin til the 11 is eventually done, no paintin or polishin this time lol.

who's is that exhaust manifold?

[andybond]

The engine is generally very strong. It should in theory be good for huge power. I think the 8v head is restrictive mind. It would be worth swapping for a 12v head.

The reason that noone has come to the eurocup is down to cost. All the bits that are needed to make the engine grenade proof are custom made. They are very , very expensive if they are already made.

Jos engine not only has big power ( for the j7r ) but they key bit is reliability. You can wind the boost upto 2bar and believe me it will go like a rocket. Until it grenades. You are correct - the liners are weak at anything above 18psi. Time and time again they have split. Even with det cams and wideband.

I think Adaptronic or a custom written map will help no end. Andy Rabson has a running living 21t with adaptronic on it. Its an interesting project.

Go for a serieus map (like i say before) from fastchip and the figures are: 242 bhp (crank) and 363 N/m torque ON A STANDARD CAR by 1.1bar (1.3 highest pressure)

Thats an achievable target if ever I saw one

As Chris suggest - a decent map will help but a lot of the dutch and belguim members have these but dont have huge power.

Ill see what I can help with - always happy to see how far a car can be pushed. My general feeling is that the love for pushing 21s to the limit in the UK is gone over on the 21toc and the idea is just keeping them on the road.

For me - if I had the spanner and skillset that you and Chris can bring id be asking Sibley where he is going with the 12v engine and Jo what did he use to get where he got and what is he doing now.

Keep us in the loop. Genuine interest...

[clee]

Too few of them about now and as Andy says it's mostly keeping them alive that occupies most owner's minds .Probably less about than the GTA .
I've never looked at mine from this point of view as I've got the v6 to play with .
I have got some chip info from my modded unit and also a std chip but phase3 lump .It might help to some extent to see what and where ??

[andybond]

Spoken to Jo on Facebook and he has uploaded a few bits for you to look over.

Andy

[Haz]

i thought the head would have been restrictive for even mild tuning but it appears that its not so bad, but with a 20yr old 2ltr 8v i dont expect it to be crazy fast, just want better than my 1.7 8v and a bit more the the extra weight

i wont be splashing out, thats what the 11 will be for, as its ma daily i'm just having a cheap experimental stage as i need to swap a few bits anyway so why not get better if i can get stuff at the same price as std, obviously there will have to ba a few extra bits bought and more to spend but i'm not goin all out, unless it works really well then lts go??

adaptronic would be great, as above tho, but as scoff is willing to lend a hand, AGAIN, he's happy to see what can be done with the original set up. got to be miles better than a chip with add this this and this and it'll work well, which i think is where a few owners have failed.

and thats the other thing a cant understand, if jo has access to the europa cars and there specs why hasn't he gone down that route, is it just cost? i notice they changed the ecu in those, has he got info on that?

i think the reason they dont have huge power, despite the map being 'perfect' is quite simply torque x revs is hp, and they like big boost but spool up is more important to them, like tryin to get gtt members to fit a t28 years ago, it was insane back then.

very intersted in what jo knows, seems a mountain of knowledge and could save alot with the research, which could be posted in more detail to questions as i'm sure others would be interested if the was easier, cheaper options. europa parts prices would put me off using them, mainly cos a think you'd need the full package for it to work in harmony and tryin to organise a group buy for custom parts can also be costly.
does 21toc use the term pmt lol

clee, considerin i would class my 21 less than average goin off the multi coloured red panels i hardly have to touch it, even replaced the heater dash bulbs cos i was that bored lookin for bits to do that wouldnt cost the earth. comfy seats, massive boot and less lookin after than a gtt, result. . i must be gettin old. regards the chips, they could be very handy, tryin to source every type so they can be compared with set-up etc.

[andybond]

and thats the other thing a cant understand, if jo has access to the europa cars and there specs why hasn't he gone down that route, is it just cost?

He did. To an extent. He created almost the same power as one but able to run on a road. They idled really high and were incredibly lumpy. The reason bespoke cup parts werent used are for the reason you mentioned cost. They are seriously eye wateringly expensive. Dont forget there are two "racing" verison of the 21T. The eurocup and the superproduction ( or supertourisme ) the lower producing around 300Vc the latter 440CV with a HUGE t4 ..


Eurocup



SuperPro

i think the reason they dont have huge power, despite the map being 'perfect' is quite simply torque x revs is hp, and they like big boost but spool up is more important to them, like tryin to get gtt members to fit a t28 years ago, it was insane back then.

I disagree. It more to do with people CBA with blowing up another engine and rebuilding it. Plus people over here didnt have access to or fund to get custom maps.

I think Jo is filling in the gaps for you over on 21toc.

[Haz]

ah great, so the engine he's sold hasn't been the highest bhp one he's made, should have soem handy info then.

think the prima one looks great, must resist stickers until the engine makes them worthwhile lol. where are you finding the info lol. wasn't aware of the superproduction, shall have to get nosing the net again, not that i'll ever go that crazy but alot more interesting in race format.

see, now you've just answered you own comment really, people blowing up their engines as the maps aren't simple 'add these bits and it'll work' close maybe, no point goin all out if the main bit isn't right tho i think if it all works well fairly cheap there would be a few more members willing to try few things?

gettin somwhere with jo now, maybe i just took the wrong approach lol

got another decision to make now too, after trying to swap with tony for his white one for months i gave up (i'm not a fan of red cars unless really good paintwork). decided the 21 needed more power and as it wanted some new gaskets and a waterpump thought i'd swap a few other bits it could do with . . . and now he wants to swap before i start! said he'd rather his good example lowish mileage ph1 go to me and get tinkered with than havin to sell it and get broken or written off, which i should really be offended that he'd be fine sellin mine tho lol, only prob is although the rest of the car is better, the engine bay is gonna need some work. the missus thinks i need to do all these 'jobs' to my car, just dunno how i'm gona convince her if i swap it

[GTphil]

So let me get this straight........You have a renault turbo that you can just get in and drive, it has a big boot and comfy seats and doesn't need as much looking after as a gtt and you want to go and make some more power from it??

Somethings never change

[Haz]

lol, you know me too well phil. but if it doesn't need fixing then i have to clean it!
was just plannin on a few upgrades as it works out cheaper then buyin oe bits new, and was seeing what could be done which seems fairly easy if you fitted chips, then started chattin to scoff . . i blame him lol

[GTphil]

Don't let Scoff loose on it........there will be an f4r in that big boot before you know it

[andybond]

think the prima one looks great, must resist stickers until the engine makes them worthwhile lol. where are you finding the info lol. wasn't aware of the superproduction, shall have to get nosing the net again, not that i'll ever go that crazy but alot more interesting in race format.

Despite my looks and general appearance I am actually a sponge. I soak up info like no other !
I have a lot of time for the eurocup and superpro cars. They really were ahead of their times. Awesome awesome cars. I have seen them once at a WSR event and I was simply gobsmacked.

see, now you've just answered you own comment really, people blowing up their engines as the maps aren't simple 'add these bits and it'll work' close maybe, no point goin all out if the main bit isn't right tho i think if it all works well fairly cheap there would be a few more members willing to try few things?

I think members are willing to try , but a trip to see Henk in the Netherlands is a long way to go. Especially if you swap your parts around. A trip to Liverpool is slightly more desirable . But only just

gettin somwhere with jo now, maybe i just took the wrong approach lol

I spoke to Jo , and explained you arent just another turn up big injectors in big turbo and tweak the boost. Jo has banged his head against the wall with new folks before so doesnt want to waste his time. Top bloke is Jo - knowledgeable , intelligent and a true gent.

got another decision to make now too, after trying to swap with tony for his white one for months i gave up (i'm not a fan of red cars unless really good paintwork). decided the 21 needed more power and as it wanted some new gaskets and a waterpump thought i'd swap a few other bits it could do with . . . and now he wants to swap before i start! said he'd rather his good example lowish mileage ph1 go to me and get tinkered with than havin to sell it and get broken or written off, which i should really be offended that he'd be fine sellin mine tho lol, only prob is although the rest of the car is better, the engine bay is gonna need some work. the missus thinks i need to do all these 'jobs' to my car, just dunno how i'm gona convince her if i swap it

Hmm. That could be fun !

[Haz]

Don't let Scoff loose on it........there will be an f4r in that big boot before you know it

nah mate, had planned a few upgrades but oe bits costing same as some bits scoff's suggested so why not. cheap and cheerful pmt car, the more get spent the less thats there for the 11, just cant get motivated on it atm.

[Haz]

Despite my looks and general appearance I am actually a sponge. I soak up info like no other !
I have a lot of time for the eurocup and superpro cars. They really were ahead of their times. Awesome awesome cars. I have seen them once at a WSR event and I was simply gobsmacked.

I think members are willing to try , but a trip to see Henk in the Netherlands is a long way to go. Especially if you swap your parts around. A trip to Liverpool is slightly more desirable . But only just

I spoke to Jo , and explained you arent just another turn up big injectors in big turbo and tweak the boost. Jo has banged his head against the wall with new folks before so doesnt want to waste his time. Top bloke is Jo - knowledgeable , intelligent and a true gent.

Hmm. That could be fun !

yeah mate, class. dunno if more than one chip will be done, depends on the people involved, not me. just happy to have them helpin with mine.
aw, now he's gonna be dissappointed lol.
from speaking to a few other people he's a crackin engine builder, but henk does his mapping which would explain a few grey areas. gettin snippets from other members too tho so will get there in the end

[andybond]

Your correct Jo builds , Henk maps.

However he does have quite good knowledge of whats happening.

My map understanding is zero so I cant really help on that.

All I can say is try the combos being thrown at you and get a good map on there and you will be able to run some decent boost therefore gaining more power.

[clee]

MartinF and I are going to throw a few things at mine for Pod day .Nothing complicated ,injectors,turbo and a remap and see what she does ....
Need to get out and thrash something as the GTA build is depressing me at the moment

[Haz]

MartinF and I are going to throw a few things at mine for Pod day .Nothing complicated ,injectors,turbo and a remap and see what she does ....
Need to get out and thrash something as the GTA build is depressing me at the moment

pull your finger out

big turbo?
std ecu remap?
you changing the cam too?

think there's plenty to be had out of them, seem to make bags of torque, just not high enough in the rev range.

[Lewis]

Like Haz I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with the remap if you are remapping the standard ECU. Its something I need doing

[alex barker]

Good thread this boys. Iv just got my old 21t bk after selling it 2 years ago. Needs alot of tlc but it's road worthy.
I looked into getting it mapped last time round but had no joy with tuners and the standard ecu!
So what's the crack boys???

[Haz]

well there's various chips which are designed to run on various setups but they aren't mapped to each enine so aren't as good as they could be. 2 options atm, a guy from 21toc can arrange for it to be done for about £300 but i'm under the impression you have to get the car to belgium, or somewhere else, but not the uk. and there's standalone, which prob works out the same price in the end with the option of being able to retune if you change setup. the latest option is that scoff is interested in having a go, he has some software and access to a chip reader and writer and has my spare ecu but he's been busy with other things. i've swapped cars with another member but after trying to remove the sump to reseal as it was leaking, i have ended up having to take the engine out due to 2 chewed torx bolts and no access to remove them, which has turned into an engine bay resto so could be a couple of months before i'm back to where i was. i'm happy for scoff to use my car as a tester, although he may do others first with the usual, completely roadworthy, no oil or coolant leaks, no overheating etc etc but guessin he would rather experiment on mine until (if any) software niggles etc are sorted??

[alex barker]

Thanks very much for the info. I don't fancy goin Belgium,it's funny you said that as I think I spoke to the fella that does it at fcs 07. There was a few Belgium 21's there and I spoke to a fella about mapping and he said he done it himself lool.
As for the standalone route I Dnt think it will be cost effective for what I want. The old girl runs both a full scorpion, both pace intercoolers, massive cossie airfilter and a daws device set at 17psi. Last time I had it on the rollers again 07 I think it was pretty rich off boost but was fine on. She made 195bhp and 235lb.
That was all well and good then but she's even older now and not really been looked after so alot of time will be put back into her to get bk to a decent state. Then il be looking into getting her mapped. Not looking for big power just want to know the fueling bang on.

Please keep us posted with yours and scoffs experiments with the 21. As s future customer will be watching lol

Cheers guys

[Haz]

that could have been he guy who does actually do the mapping, henk, works for fast chips in the netherlands i think, his main 21 customer is jo, a guy with a really tidy iceberg sliver one who was prob there too.
(sorry, but. . ) the scorpion would be better than std but if you still have the std restrictive turbo elbow it will just make more noise not much more power. pace intercoolers again wont make much difference as they are still in the std positions, the reason people used them is that the plastic ones can blow the caps off around 18-20psi. cossie filter is fine, but so's the std one at that boost. dawes device replacing the std amal valve will remove the boost limiter in 1st gear and stop the ecu trying to control boost tho.
if it was pretty rich off boost then at a guess it may be chipped, open the ecu (found under the grey plastic cover by the battery) you'll see if it is, quite obvious as may have a 'tuner' sticker on it, or over just a white label with a 'tuner part number' in biro on it. tbh if you not changing much else its prob not worth gettin mapped as i'm told the 21's run a high duty cycle anyway, turning the boost up to say 18-20psi max's most of them out hence why they are common to split liners around that.
may be worth just buying a wideband kit to check the fuelling yourself (which scoff sells) then if you find your wanting more from it you'll need higher fuel pressure regulators and bigger injectors and thats when you'll need to get remapped. usually better fuel pump, new filter and replacing the plastic fuel lines is worth thinking about at that stage too.
shall keep this updated when there's more progress tho

[alex barker]

cheers haz. It shall be a while befor i get to the tuning stage of this project lool. But once shes in a good all round condition and and fully serviced i think a bigger turbo elbow and a massive front mount will be all that needs to be done. Then it shall be off to me mate's old mans rollers for a run so he can give me the low down. As i said befor not after big bhp so if i could have her running nicely at 200hp i would be a happy man.