I like the idea of this RE000. Than the car will look absolutely original.
But if you take the plastic case of the ignition module you can build inside something different. I think a MAP sensor is much better than the original vacuum membrane.
With the description of this french guy I have successfully repaired some vacuum membrane.
http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-off...e/kit-membrane
As we have talked about it maybe I'll take it from my drawer and play with it another few days.
With the adaptronic ecu you can use a clio/19 16v ignition unit to control spark.Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
I like the idea of this RE000. Than the car will look absolutely original.
But if you take the plastic case of the ignition module you can build inside something different. I think a MAP sensor is much better than the original vacuum membrane.
With the description of this french guy I have successfully repaired some vacuum membrane.
http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-off...e/kit-membrane
As we have talked about it maybe I'll take it from my drawer and play with it another few days.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWNX:IT
So the engine bay and scuttle area would look oe depend on where the ecu was put.
Guys, all this info needs to be transferred to a 'mappable ignition' thread. This will get those not reading this thread interested and also be better for future RTOC board searches.
Good suggestion if a mod would like to move the relevant bits into a new thread that would be great
I will be interested to see how mapable ignition works out with wgt .. you would think that with all the mods on most cars these days the standard ignition map could definately be improved ..
would be great to see the differences at a set boost pressure and comparing before and after rr graphs ... especially on wgts hub dyno ..
Blunty if you decide not to go ahead ... give us a shout and maybe i will be interested depending on cost ... once i sort my clutch out
Deffinetly interested in this, i looked in to it awhile back as with most other things for me i didnt get time to invest in it.
Ignition timing is one of the most critical things in tuning, you can run 10-20-30 psi of boost but whats the point if your only igniting the mixture when its half way down the bores.
Let us kno how you get on and costs involved!!
I asked awhile back and im sure mr cooke posted me a french website of a modified renix unit, but i couldnt read it so didnt look further lol.
as soon as i get the prices back i shall post up onto here
Put me down for it!
Any news on prices dude?
not yet mate should get back to me soon
Right guys got a price on mappable ignition. This includes absolutely everything drive in drive out all mapped up. £1000. Apparantly the ecu they use will also allow to upgrade to full efi in the future if you wanted.
Right guys got a price on mappable ignition. This includes absolutely everything drive in drive out all mapped up. £1000. Apparantly the ecu they use will also allow to upgrade to full efi in the future if you wanted.
Oops sorry guys double post.
£1000 all inn! so ok thats a little more than i expected but cant put a price on performace! So what is going to be the advantages??
Thats pretty fair, I expect Pip might use a DTA s40 for that price so full EFI wouldn't be much further away.
That is something i cant answer until one has been done. I was hoping be the first but i think my mrs will kill me if i spend another 1k on my car iv only just got away with buying a van and spending our holiday money lol.
increased performance due to weight of spent wonga...
You've got to realise that more than half of that is in the ECU and loom so it's pretty fair. Sure, you could buy a Megajolt instead, fit it youself in a day and it'll have cost you £250. Expect to spend the same again or more on mapping though. Of course, there's no possibiliy to upgrade to fuel injection with that route though.
Spot on chris.
Ecu,coil,trigger wheel and mapping bang on all done without you having do a thing.
£1000 all inforget that ill stick with the carb thanks. a £1000 nowadays is alot of money i could do with in my bank.
i guess the question on everyones tongues is how much would the full package be.
Me personally , im not really interested as i enjoy the carb and dont feel need to push r5s to there limits, and im happy with its small donwfalls.
you'd be sticking with the carb anyway, we're talking about mappable ignition. Full EFI is going to be £1500 on a budget£1000 all in
you'd be sticking with the carb anyway, we're talking about mappable ignition. Full EFI is going to be £1500 on a budget
As Chris no's i'm currently in the process of doing a full EFI converstion on my 5.... To date I've spent nearly £1500 and that's getting most of the parts secondhand.. Bearing in mind this is just parts, no labour to fit or map.
Manifold is 2nd biggest cost really (after ECU) (i seem to remember Hi 5 saying about £900 for something like he's got) I went with a MT one, not sure how it's going to hold up, but, will be a good test for other memebers, as I plan to squeeze as much power out of my engine as poss..
But the way I look at it is, its going to hopefully be a massive improvement over the carb in all area's. I also don't just use my car for drag racing, i drive it on the road too, as a few members no.
So as Chris said 1k for ignition control drive in drive out is pretty good!
I hope this helps
i personally find the price seems very reasonable however i just cant help feel that id personally spend my own hard earned cash fitting a large CC engine which also comes with injection. I completely understand those either pushing the 1.4 limits like glen or racing within set events, however for those just randomly looking for more numbers on them rollers just swap engines if your penny watching as it will generally be far more benficial.
Same story with my 205.. i purchased a set of weber 45's , and inlet etc.. but when i really looked at it, the power would maybe be 150 at a push with a nice cam, guzzle fuel, still be rough at certain areas within the rev range etc, where as my gti6 is circa 160bhp , 32 mpg, parts off the shelf all day long, turn key start, and it owers me about £200.
in other words just ask exactly what you want from the car, what yours aims are and what your budget is... also be ready for them sills to drop off and land you with just as large bodywork bills , as im sure all these french tin cars are rotters.
This really is a good price for a performance/reliability addition to the c1j.
The three most important parts to the performance are the compression, fuelling and ignition timing. we all now realise that incorrect fueling = poor performance and potentially damaging to the engine. Ignition timing is even more critical and has a huge effect on performance and a catastrophic effect if its wrong. It is a large amount of money in one go unfortunately, even more unfortunate is the fact that the 5 allready has this system it just isnt easily mappable and doesnt work at the boost levels we now play at.
I'm interested to know what the cheaper mapped ignition option might provide in improvement/reliability (as an alternative to the £1000 option).
£250 for megajolt
£250 for mapping say
What are the benefits for that £500 (understanding there's no route out to EFI afterwards)?
Can you ditch the Renix unit at that rate? What happens when you alter boost levels once it's all set up?
Imho, if you're not gonna go the whole hog & fit a complete efi setup, you're wasting time & money, and with regards to a c1j some may argue that even with said complete efi setup, you'd still be wasting time & money.
As always, it depends on application - Running a carb never hurt Stuart Clark on the strip, nor Hoolio Geordio (or whatever his name is) with his carb/NOS setup, and I've yet to see any efi'd GTT breaking records on track.
A well setup carb' will give equally good cold/hot starts, and likewise, good driving manners with respectable mpg. I was getting close to 400 miles to a tank out of Whitey, and that was driven (and started on the key) day in, day out come rain, shine or even snow.
The o.e Renix ignition map isn't that bad, and of course has limitations, but again it comes down to what you want from the car. It's relatively easy to advance/retard the complete map if needs be, and I'd say, imho, for 99% of people with gtt's/c1j's, that's all that's required.
If you're prepared to pay out for a full blown efi setup, imho again, you might as well ditch the c1j & fit a newer, already efi'd, possibly larger displacement, engine into the bay instead & go from there.
As a last point, it's a ~25 year old car - How far down the line d'you want to go with trying to modernise it, before you lose the appeal & character of the car?
TALKING/THINKING OF IGNITION ONLY IN THIS POST, NOT EFI
Mart, I'm thinking ahead a few years. What happens when Renix boxes' diaphragms start failing. Can they be fixed? If not, what's the best/cheapest/best performing solution?
IMO it's worth thinking about/understanding upfront and in this instance I was just trying to understand the benefits (if any) of something like megajolt to look for reasons that improve the cost/benefit ratio.
Trev, yes they can be repaired - One example is here: http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-off...e/kit-membrane (the jubilee clip method would be sufficient).
If you're thinking ahead a few years, fair do's, but I'd wait & worry about it as & when/if it ever happens mate
Anyway, akin to the tubular manifold thread, this is all just my humble opinion.
Ahh, I'd not seen that bit of the site. Cool, although not something I'd like to have a stab at unless I really had to!
Talking of years down the line, I'd need a GTT before I started worrying about that again anyway, lol.
Mart man, I can guarantee that if you were to have completed and accurately mapped the standalone ignition on your old raider you'd have loved it to bits. The standard map really is very poor once you fit a big turbo! There's a massave hole in the timing at 3000rpm, WOT and the rest isn't exactly optimized for performance. Fixing that hole alone makes pulling out of junctions without boost a whole load more responsive. With the whole map optimized it suddenly feels like you're in a 2L when you're off boost.
Full EFI is a god send when you're pushing the limits, trust me. It benefits peformance a lot too at higher boost levels. Not so much at lesser levels as I've said before. And you know me better than to go spouting unproven nonsence - I'm not that guy, I wouldn't say it unless I was condifent of it's truth.
As for the carb not hurting Stuart Clark, it often did with blown gaskets, expanded pistons and so on. We used my logging gear on his car once, the fueling was less than optimal but no doubt the best he could have done.
As for records with EFI, is the UK 1/4m record not sufficient ?Yes, Gianni has us pipped with Glenns car. He has a trick camshaft and a lot of time and effort in the engine. We have a standard cylinder head, a standard BP285 and standard cam timing ! I'd take my hat off to anyone who could re-create that with a carburettor.
I whole heartedly agree about the engine swapping though. If you're going to spend all that time and money you really should be looking at a modern engine. Of course, there are a few guys that want to stay true to the original - at least in some part - and thats OK too.
i personally think that mappable ignition is the way forward with the c1j
I'd say it is too but with it's cost it will be on the very end of people list once all the cheaper ponies had been realised.
am pretty sure cost cn be taken down by using something like megajolt maybe to around the £800 mark
Scoff, that's exactly the band where i struggle with a lethargic response 2.8k - 3.4k. I doubt the 34mm restrictor helps and may be stalling flow under certain conditions. Next time the engine is out i might go for a closer ratio box and fit a 172 box with my diff in it, trouble is, the tall 1st is very usefull for very tight hairpins around bales. Once i get the EFi set up fitted next month i'll be in touch for a decent ECU and mapping session. I have semi-free access to a friends R/R down south though, might do a before and after graph and post it up?
Mart once its done you are welcome to have a drive next time i'm racing up north, it is still road legal, would welcome your opinion.
EFI and ignition mapping are two completely seperate things and should be considered that way. I think up to 15 psi the standard renix is fine, beyond that im sure theres lots of room for improvement. as prevously said, the ignition map is for a t2 and standard cam on full boost(full ignition retard) by about 2000rpm. i know from my rr day my turbo isnt on full boost till 4000rpm so ive got 2000rpm off boost of probably pretty retarded ignition timing. no wonder there so flat. Short of sitting on the engine with a strobe while someones on a rolling road i dont think were going to know how bad/good the map is. I do remember someone stating in an EFI thread that the c1j responded well to ignition adjustments.
The standard renix 'map' is not that bad for high boost, im running my tdc in stock position with 22 psi @ manifold with no knock.....mappable ign will make response low down better without a shadow of a doubt.
Im planning on fitting mappable ign to the van at some point, im tempted to megajolt it on the cheap, be ideal for nitrous
Tony, I sampled the RE209's response years ago (using an airline on the capsule instead of a dyno) thats how I can see the big hole in the timing. It's a 3D map by the way, so you won't have excessive retard from 2000-4000rpm.
And the RE209 has a very big retard after the stock boost level. That's why it can be used till 20-22psi. But it is very weak in the 10-20psi range.
(it will use the same advance @12psi and @22 also)
And there is no rev limit.
so you tested throughout rev range at different pressures? i assumed you just scoped it idling and recorded the retard at different pressures.
I could probably do a better job these days but essentially I had my trusty piper timing disc bolted to the crank pulley, the car at standstill and an airline/guage on the renix. I had a bit of stiff wire clamped to the subframe as a pointer. I strobed and plotted every 500rpm and every +2psi increment or something. I couldn't test vacuum though, but I wasn't interested in that. I published the results at the time on the old forum, which of course was lost. Some of the long timers might remember it. I put together a "suggested" general purpose replacement map which exists in the files area under my name. That map is essentially the standard map with the hole filled, a bit more timing up to about 1.2 bar, OE timing around 1.5bar and a bit of extra retard there after.
As jimmy says, the renix does nothing to retard further after 10psi in my tests, so the same timing curve at 10psi or 30psi boost. You can therefore see that you could safely run more timing at 1-18psi and still pull timing at higher levels if you had something mappable. Couple that with removing the hole at 3000rpm and you're on to a winner.
This sounds good!
How cheaply can this be done, with what and by whom?!
cheapest kit would be the megajolt and i wouldnt be surprised if lumenition do some form of universal mappable ignition
wgt price was for an ecu that could be upgraded to efi at a later date if required im going see what they say if we use just mappable ignition only how it affects the price
Just spoke to.pip at wgt and he says if using a megajolt instead of dta it would be an all in price of £850 that includes everything required and fully mapped up on dyno.
I do remember your thread on that scoff, you did send me the file too, ill try my best to find it but i dont think it was on this laptop. I was thinking along the megajolt route with some ford components if i remember rightly.
£850 is getting a bit more tempting!!!
I just wanted to clear this question up........ if u use a wasted spark system,1 and 4, with 2 and 3 and are sparking at say 15 degrees after top on no.1 cyl(power) then ure the same with no.4 cyl( induction)so is there a spark when the inlet valve is open on no 4 or am i not looking at it right??
Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains! Gearbox will always be the weak point though
not dissing gianni car but he has 3 injectors as well as a carb so it my as well be efi
mart said
As always, it depends on application - Running a carb never hurt Stuart Clark on the strip, nor Hoolio Geordio (or whatever his name is) with his carb/NOS setup, and I've yet to see any efi'd GTT breaking records on track.
lol open your eyes
Last edited by Hi 5; 30-03-2011 at 20:19.
I'm also thinking about building a similar programmable ignition like the french project.
It won't be that difficult with the modern microcontrollers.
And as a default Scoff's curve could be used, (if he agrees)
It would be a straight replacement of the renix module only with some additional USB or RS232 connector on it. But I'd use a 3 bar MAP sensor.......
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