Just received an email from pip gardner at wgt regarding doing an efi conversion on renault 5s he is really up for doing this and wants to use my car as the guinea pig all ill have to pay is the cost of materials which sounds like a fair deal. He is then going to price up the proper cost of the conversion but he assures me it will be cheaper than 2k all in mapped up etc. What do you guys think its gotta be worth it just for reliability.
Save your money, the old solex is good enough when set up properly
£2k and your the guinea pig?? depends on whats being used i suppose...
Custom manifold and fuel rail £500
Ecu £500+ for a decent one
Wiring Loom £200
Trigger Wheel £70
Sensors and misc parts £200-300
Looking abit less than £2k...
It is a shame nobody over here offers a off the shelf EFI kit as such, but If i were to go efi I would want a custom manifold and would try to avoid using an adaptated renault manifold, adaptronic ecu, and a few other things from Scoff - who even has some maps to help you get started...
Solex carb easy for 200bhp with a bit more effort and trail and error can see 240bhp.
but with EFI you can push much further as long as your turbo is correctly spected and act are good. The question is weather the extra 30-40 efi could give you is worth 1-2K it'll cost you.?
I wont be paying 2k fella all am paying is cost of materials. Am not sure what the all in price will be after but it wi be drive in drive out completely done.
ah ok not so bad then, even so I would want to know what parts are going to be used and whats happening with the manifoldOriginally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
If I were to go for efi it would be for better mpg, better power throughout the range not just peak power & also should be abit more reliable.
Wait until Scoff finds out...
Something tells me Glenns car on Saturday wet a few lips...
Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains! Gearbox will always be the weak point though
can't Justin @ automedics sort you out?
You could easily drop a b18ft on standalone for under 2k.
I may be wrong, but didn't Oli (Os8472) record like.. 20% extra power at the same boost pressure, along with much better fuel economy and turn key reliability?Seriously though unless your going to go Glen Hi 5's route i.e fully forged lump, gas etc really pushing the limits of the c1j you wont see the benefit. As for power look at gianni santi, mega power still on a carb.
If your heart is set on efi, you would do far better dropping a modern engine in with more cc's and make the most of it. Be far more cost effective in the long run & better gains! Gearbox will always be the weak point though
With an efi conversion? I cant answer that as we speak as iv only just had that email from wgt so aint spoke to justin yet.can't Justin @ automedics sort you out?
get your carb correctly speced first blunty, Personally i love carbs, the r5 carb is so simple and does a great job, i feel if you begin spending big cash on efi as already said you may aswell change lump at the same time, as really your already loosing a lot of character of the car by sticking electronic fueling on it.
Also remember that if you go efi.. every wothwhile mod afterwards will require a lenghty time with the tuners to map it up again.. I think saturday highlighted that so many folks fuelings were completely off, however everysingle one of them had either, just hit and hoped with a odd set of jets and boost, or gave it somebody else to setup and trusted that they have it right(and the dyno showed otherwise). My advise would be to get an lm1, sit down and study the afrs and what they mean and how the diffrent jets work and at what stage they do there bit, and do it yourself.
What silly times was tommyB running ?, he was on a carb , think he'd of died at the sight of 2k efi setups. Push the limits of the carb first, then if you still feel the need for power maybe fork out the silly wedge for efi, but personally im against it in most cases.
i wouldn't say turnkey reliability lol.... the starting was no better, if not worse than a carbed one!
will be sorting the carb out iv got an aem wideband kit here to fit, its just something that i might consider if its going make the car better on fuel and reliable and poss a bit more power etc
I agree with most of what has been said, but most people are looking at peak Hp not drivability, lower lag/good throttle response. I am going efi for all these reasons and mid range torque, i don't really need that much more top end power (although more is always helpful
The flip side is that a NA 220+bhp 2 litre would put me in a lower class and make the car even more competetive and easier to drive. So, anyone selling a TB'd, cammed clio lump on standalone for £20?
they are a few good reasons to go for efiI agree with most of what has been said, but most people are looking at peak Hp not drivability, lower lag/good throttle response. I am going efi for all these reasons and mid range torque
and the first thing has got to be the ability to re map the poor ignition map. I have seen a 25bhp increase at 1 particular part in a map which makes the car so much more responsive low down.
Standalone ignition with carb, sorted
was this on your car or a friends ? sounds like a fair chunk of power low down to gain
who does standalone ignition ? lumenition do it dont they ?Standalone ignition with carb, sorted
Scoff does a Adaptronic unit that will allow you to map the ignition i believe, Rob (backyard racing) used a unit on his C1J powered clio or was it his phase 1.
You know that ****Standalone ignition with carb, sorted
How much is this kit.
in my option a 5 fun is because of the 1.4 c1j and the fact you can give a good run for many of the modern car whit bigger cc and if some one pass you can say man is only a 1950 lump and i give you a run for your money and if you fit a f7p and turboit you must play a different game and lose the 5 best ting if you want a big motor in small car then go get your self a corsa whit a calibra motor in it and race it until the body holds
i dont want a big motor in my 5 mate, this would convert the c1j to efi
i m whit you 100% what can make the c1j better is a good thing to have
This was on a friends car, mapped himself on a RR.was this on your car or a friends ? sounds like a fair chunk of power low down to gain
That's what Rosco shortman has done and I can tell you, I'll not be putting pinks down on national day because his is absolutely lightning quick.You know that ****
So I agree there.
I love to see a well set up carbed, big turbo FMIC, 5 doing the bussiness, I have a lot of time for the carb, just couldn't tune one for toffee hence the EFI.
But thats in the tuning. With a good tune it'll start on the button, hot, cold, whatever
I've been involved with and tuned a few EFI C1J's as some of you will know and so I'm pretty well placed to be able to tell you the pro's and con's of the conversion.
Pro's (with a good map!) are that you'll have perfect starting, improved fuel ecconomy and *notably* improved mid-range.
I've said it before - the one thing that doesn't seem to improve much is out and out power output - that is until you start to push the boundaries. EFI is fantastic in high boost applications like Glenns car. I'm 100% confident we could not squeze as much power out of it as we could with a carb. Sure, maybe a couple of guys have made more power again - and with a carb inplace - but they'll have ran some trick camshafts and cylinder heads. We have a standard BP285 @ standard timing with a standard cylinder head in Glenns car !
So if you're only interested in 1.5bar or whatever then you can't expect to see big HP gains, but the other gains might make the conversion tempting.
I think Pip was quietly impressed with Glenns injection setup, I had a good chat with him about it and other conversions after most people had gone so perhaps that sparked some interest. I have confidence he'll do a great job on anyones conversion
As for the question "Why hasn't anyone produced a kit?" - the answer is because there isn't enough interest to warrant it. Even for an individual like me it wouldn't be worth my effort putting one together, let alone a big company or tuning outfit.
BB tuning tried it, did the development work and had good results. How many kits did they sell do you think ? About zero.
Very few people with R5's want to spend money and even fewer apreciate modifying them these days. It's all about OE and restoration and those that do tune like to do it on a shoestring themselves because it's fun or because (like me) they're brasic lint
Very few people with R5's want to spend money and even fewer apreciate modifying them these days. It's all about OE and restoration and those that do tune like to do it on a shoestring themselves because it's fun or because (like me) they're brasic lint
I'm interested in the Adaptronic system! As for EFI conversions i think its something that will cost you as much as you want to spend! The more you spend the better the quality will be! If i was gonna go the EFI route i'd go the whole hog, Forged engine etc etc, F**k fuel economy! If thats what your after buy a diesel!
after a little chat with scoff last night another option i will be putting forward to wgt today is mappable ignition as from the sounds of it the gtt benefits quite a bit from this and would be alot cheaper of going down the efi route.
can you say what benefits you can get whit it i was looking in it but i told my self to go that rout i go for efi or can you join the 2 together
From France you can buy R21T kit with eeprom mapped to GTT. It uses R21T throttle body and injectors. I have found some homepages describing the whole process.
I have bought Megasquirt about 2 years ago. And first I've only used it for ignition.
The MS costs about 250 dollars. And with the help of Scoff (big thanx!!!) it was an easy job to fit it. Than you have all the possibilities to modify your ignition.
During the winter I have also done the EFI conversion. Now the car always starts for the first either cold or warm. I haven't yet finished the mapping as my second doughter has borned 7 weeks ago. And also the cold winter is not for GTTing.
I haven't made it for the extra HP only for fun. I wanted to learn how to make such conversion. How to map an ECU...
And I have also talked to other guys on msextra.com running on MS and I have even received full setup for E85. Maybe I'll also give it a try.
Interesting info there. What improvements did you get from the mappable ignition?From France you can buy R21T kit with eeprom mapped to GTT. It uses R21T throttle body and injectors. I have found some homepages describing the whole process.
I have bought Megasquirt about 2 years ago. And first I've only used it for ignition.
The MS costs about 250 dollars. And with the help of Scoff (big thanx!!!) it was an easy job to fit it. Than you have all the possibilities to modify your ignition.
During the winter I have also done the EFI conversion. Now the car always starts for the first either cold or warm. I haven't yet finished the mapping as my second doughter has borned 7 weeks ago. And also the cold winter is not for GTTing.
I haven't made it for the extra HP only for fun. I wanted to learn how to make such conversion. How to map an ECU...
And I have also talked to other guys on msextra.com running on MS and I have even received full setup for E85. Maybe I'll also give it a try.
That sounds very similar to the BBPT EFi setup, they used the clio / R19 16v ECU with a chip.From France you can buy R21T kit with eeprom mapped to GTT. It uses R21T throttle body and injectors. I have found some homepages describing the whole process.
I have bought Megasquirt about 2 years ago. And first I've only used it for ignition.
The MS costs about 250 dollars. And with the help of Scoff (big thanx!!!) it was an easy job to fit it. Than you have all the possibilities to modify your ignition.
During the winter I have also done the EFI conversion. Now the car always starts for the first either cold or warm. I haven't yet finished the mapping as my second doughter has borned 7 weeks ago. And also the cold winter is not for GTTing.
I haven't made it for the extra HP only for fun. I wanted to learn how to make such conversion. How to map an ECU...
And I have also talked to other guys on msextra.com running on MS and I have even received full setup for E85. Maybe I'll also give it a try.
Any links Jimmy?
At low-mid range car is more responsive.
You can set up rev limit.
You can set up also boost limit. (take away 2 ignition events out of 5 for eg.)
You can modify your ignition for bigger boost.
The OE ignition is only good till 1.2bar. Aftar that you have to modify the VR sensor. But that will effect the whole ignition map.
I have to check at home. I do not remember. I was searching the french forum 2 years ago. I've seen such kit on french ebay. Maybe it wasn't sold buy a company only buy other GTT funs.
Those ECUs are very similar. But I think the 16V ECUs are not able to handle boost. I think those MAP sensor is only for N/A purposes.
Good info Jimmy.
If there really are gains to be had for £200-£300, I think 'mappable ignition' is something that club members here should discuss at length. It's a relatively untouched subject as far as I can tell.
Nah, it's been discussed a good few times Trev - I was running it on my old Raider back in the days when DaveAVT was Adaptronic UK, and posted a thread about it.
Prior to that, there was the French guy (whose name escapes me now) who modified/sold programmable aei's, and as far as I'm aware, still does. I'll see if I can find his website...
There was also a french project for mappable ignition:Good info Jimmy.
If there really are gains to be had for £200-£300, I think 'mappable ignition' is something that club members here should discuss at length. It's a relatively untouched subject as far as I can tell.
http://www.neo-tech.fr/aei-renix-off...able/aei-re000
I have talked to the guy (about 4 yeears ago) who has helped me to build up this ignition. He has also sent me the codes. And I have spent more than a year to lear how to program a PIC micro in assembly and understand his code. In the end it was working. But I wasn't able to modify the ignition curve via serial port. There was something about SW limitations.
I haven't tested it too much. Only for a short drive. As I wanted to check the ignition values somehow. And by the time MS is arrived. So it went to my drawer.
I was faster!
Well iv put the wheels in motion with pip at wgt for a drive in drive out price on mappable ignition fully set up etc. So watch this space guys.
A good few times? Mart, you should know, if it hasn't been done to death on this club, it hasn't been done at all!
I think what I mean is, if there's only been a few owners who've done it and there's only been 2-3 threads about it and yet it remains a worthwhile mod that has stayed out of the mainstream, then maybe it needs to be revisited? Also, you'd hope that from pooling previous knowledge, might spring forth new ideas, a baseline, a group buy, a club article possibly? Maybe this is something that will be forced on the club eventually as Renix units' diaphragms fail?
I don't know exactly what it's about or what's to be had from it from how much outlay but I'm wondering if it's at least worth a revisit, especially at a time when a couple of members (Blunty, Jimmy), are heading this way...
That's the fella. Nice one mateI was faster!
Im certainly going head the way of mappable ignition and am mlre than willing be the first one wgt do am just waiting on a price from them. Will then speak to them about group deals etc.A good few times? Mart, you should know, if it hasn't been done to death on this club, it hasn't been done at all!
I think what I mean is, if there's only been a few owners who've done it and there's only been 2-3 threads about it and yet it remains a worthwhile mod that has stayed out of the mainstream, then maybe it needs to be revisited? Also, you'd hope that from pooling previous knowledge, might spring forth new ideas, a baseline, a group buy, a club article possibly? Maybe this is something that will be forced on the club eventually as Renix units' diaphragms fail?
I don't know exactly what it's about or what's to be had from it from how much outlay but I'm wondering if it's at least worth a revisit, especially at a time when a couple of members (Blunty, Jimmy), are heading this way...
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