what inlet manifold design to use for efi

[danielmk323]

Hi guys i m looking in efi my c1j but had fond noting on what is the best way to make the inlet manifold and what more it needs like sensors vacuum in the inlet any help please

[James5]

Hi guys i m looking in efi my c1j but had fond noting on what is the best way to make the inlet manifold and what more it needs like sensors vacuum in the inlet any help please

Micheal Tierney makes modified OE inlet's for injection, wether there any good I have no idea as not many peeps comment or even mention.

[danielmk323]

Micheal Tierney makes modified OE inlet's for injection, wether there any good I have no idea as not many peeps comment or even mention.

is there any link for it ? i dont now who is he

[James5]

is there any link for it ? i dont now who is he

Here you go

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349

[danielmk323]

Here you go

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349

tank you man

[Os8472]

Here you go

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349

I'm using his efi inlet right now, its spot on

[markey b]

I'm using his efi inlet right now, its spot on

spot on at 120bhp u mean

[HAndy]

spot on at 120bhp u mean

from what ive seen of it ,its not a bad bit of kit, it seems to go well even at 7 psi,and returns good mpg ,which is a really BIG plus

depends what the costs are /compared to building your own

[danielmk323]

i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect

[HAndy]

i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect

that will all depend what stand alone ecu you use, adaptronic, emerald.omex ... etc ..etc theres loads out there, most ecu's will have there own sensors , to run the stand alone software but you will still use your renault clocks / gauges ,for fuel level,water temp,oil pressure,speedo /tacho

[danielmk323]

that will all depend what stand alone ecu you use, adaptronic, emerald.omex ... etc ..etc theres loads out there, most ecu's will have there own sensors , to run the stand alone software but you will still use your renault clocks / gauges ,for fuel level,water temp,oil pressure,speedo /tacho

tank you for the help a+

[HAndy]

tank you for the help a+

i fitted the air temp sensor before the throttle body and water temp sensor would be tapped into the cylinder head plate (gearbox side) on the c1j engine

[TNT ANDY]

i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect

Basic kit would be ; -

1. ECU
2. Water Temp sensor.
3. Lambda sensor.
4. Map Sensor.
5.throttle position sensor.

And I think that should have you up and running. Other sensors are optional for additional bennifits / confusion.

[Os8472]

spot on at 120bhp u mean

130 actually, haven't turned the boost up yet with this setup, previous setup made 211 with a major missfire, this should put out 230ish

[danielmk323]

130 actually, haven't turned the boost up yet with this setup, previous setup made 211 with a major missfire, this should put out 230ish

nice tank you for the help guys i was looking at the adaptronic ecu any advice on it

[Os8472]

nice tank you for the help guys i was looking at the adaptronic ecu any advice on it

Can't really help with that as I have the Emerald but I've had a play about with the adaptronic software and the setup looks good

[Jimmy_GTT]

Here is mine:


R21t throttle body and elbow.

[James5]

Here is mine:


R21t throttle body and elbow.

I am liking that, who made that any more pics of your setup

[Woznaldo]

Basic kit would be ; -

1. ECU
2. Water Temp sensor.
3. Lambda sensor.
4. Map Sensor.
5.throttle position sensor.

And I think that should have you up and running. Other sensors are optional for additional bennifits / confusion.

I would add IAT (Inlet Air Temp) to that list too.

[HAndy]

top job that, james

[danielmk323]

Here is mine:


R21t throttle body and elbow.

nice set-up you have ther what is the fuel rail off or is custom

[Hi 5]

mine will be for sale but it will be about 6 months look at profile and mine will take 35 psi of boost

[Jimmy_GTT]

nice set-up you have ther what is the fuel rail off or is custom

It is custom.

[danielmk323]

mine will be for sale but it will be about 6 months look at profile and mine will take 35 psi of boost

no fair you are doing a better one for your self

[Hi 5]

no fair you are doing a better one for your self

i carnt make a better one son changing car after beating janni santi on with new project.

[Woznaldo]

Here is mine:


R21t throttle body and elbow.

That is looking sweet Jimmy! I love the 'keeping it Renault' theme!

Here's my Alliance Manifold:



The 4 bolt throttle body attachment is the same spacing as a CS172 which is what I'll probably upgrade to if I ever get the damn thing running!

[Rob@Backyardracing]

no dis-respect, but all these designs utilise too much of the standard manifold, you need to bin it, you need more volume to make more power, (andy cookes was a great example from back in the day). i would just use the flange of the stanard mani, then sheet metal fabrictate the rest, decide on your hp goals, then calculate optimum plenum volume and runner length (lots of data online), and knock one up.

as markey correctly states, the standard jobby is great at 120hp, and will make more of course, but once your getting upwards of double standard output, its wayyy off its design objectives, and far from efficent.

[Woznaldo]

no dis-respect, but all these designs utilise too much of the standard manifold, you need to bin it, you need more volume to make more power, (andy cookes was a great example from back in the day). i would just use the flange of the stanard mani, then sheet metal fabrictate the rest, decide on your hp goals, then calculate optimum plenum volume and runner length (lots of data online), and knock one up.

as markey correctly states, the standard jobby is great at 120hp, and will make more of course, but once your getting upwards of double standard output, its wayyy off its design objectives, and far from efficent.

Sorry, what part of an Alliance manifold is std GTT?

I would never assume that it is the perfect design but, it's power producing properties are far from proven. I would guess that the plenum is about a litre in volume, maybe 1.5 which is not far off the supposed 1-1.4:1 ratio guide of plenum to engine size guide.

All you need to do now is wait for the next 10 years for me to finish it!

[Rob@Backyardracing]

but the engines effective size is muliplied by boost....


on the hondas which are 1800cc, there run upto 6l volume, you do the math

[Woznaldo]

Fair point Rob.

Space would be an issue for 4-5 litres of plenum in a GTT? I think you could probably squeeze in a good 3 litres worth?

I guess your point is that none of these manifolds (Alliance aside) have a plenum of any kind in the true sense.

[Woznaldo]

Here's a good article for the yank publication 'Modified Magazine' that I subscribe to:

http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/intakemani.pdf

[Os8472]

What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it

[Woznaldo]

What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it

I did look into it a while ago and yes it can be done but the minimum numbers required at the time just didn't make it cost effective (500 min). Some company in Turkey that does sand cast replicas.

[Os8472]

I did look into it a while ago and yes it can be done but the minimum numbers required at the time just didn't make it cost effective (500 min). Some company in Turkey that does sand cast replicas.

500 holy ****, there's gotta be someone else that'd do a smaller batch

[Woznaldo]

I reckon there probably is someone somewhere that will do smaller numbers. I seem to remember a company at Autosport that could do a smaller batch but, I have no idea what their company name was?

It must have been in 2006 (last time I went!).

[Scoff]

What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it

But like Rob just said, its not a manifold you want to copy. You could improve on that design a lot.

[Woznaldo]

Too true Scoff. In the article that I posted above it suggested that the plenum should be 1.5-2.0 times the engine capacity and maybe more on a turbocharged engine. The Alliance was a normally aspirated car and the only reason the Californian model has multi-point injection was to meet the emissions requirement for that state.

I will say that if you were going to design a manifold for semi-mass production, you'd probably want it to be cast aluminium alloy as it's cheaper. That's not to say a low production hand made manifold cant be done. A few jigs etc could see something very worthwhile come together for reasonable cash but, it would need to be developed and be a proven performer before hand.

[Scoff]

I've think it would be a miricle if you could get even 10 serious customers, even if the cost was sub £500. Reality is that it will cost more than that if quantities are that small. Maybe if the other hardware and tuning costs were lower there might be more interested people.

[Scoff]

Re plenum volume, I'd go for 1.5x engine capacity x boost (bar, absolute), if you have the room

[Chris Hebden]

Are the runners included in the volume capacity? If thats the correct terminology?

[Rob@Backyardracing]

not normally, though runner lenth, and bore has an effect.

see below for classic examples...

http://www.edelbrock.com/sportcompac...ani_perf.shtml

http://www.edelbrock.com/sportcompac...ani_vict.shtml


now both of these manifolds are for the same engine, you can see the clear differances in design for differant output levels, and power delivery.

[Scoff]

Rob, I'm scared my new inlet manifold may actually be too large I'll be after your 72mm unit

[Woznaldo]

I've think it would be a miricle if you could get even 10 serious customers, even if the cost was sub £500. Reality is that it will cost more than that if quantities are that small. Maybe if the other hardware and tuning costs were lower there might be more interested people.

I think you're right. There just isn't the market for developing EFI on the C1J anymore. 10 yrs ago an all inclusive kit with proven numbers would have sold quite well, especially as it no doubt would have been better on the juice and more driveable/tractable.

I would love to have the cash available just to finish my Alliance/Megasquirt set up and actual post up some dyno graphs. Not so much for the numbers but for the shape of the curves. One day.......

[Rob@Backyardracing]

Rob, I'm scared my new inlet manifold may actually be too large I'll be after your 72mm unit

with enough boost to fill it it be fine


the days of 25psi being high boost are long gone

[Jimmy_GTT]

My plan is to measure the car with this 'carb style' inlet than develope another with plenum and make comparative measurements.
And I'll ask all your help with the development of the new inlet!

[Jimmy_GTT]

Worth reading:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...est-Results***

[Woznaldo]

Some time in 2015 I'm going to take my Alliance manifold to a local Abrasive Flow Machining (extrude honing) joint to see what they can offer. The pictures on their website 'look' pretty encouraging?

http://www.abrasiveflow.com/aboutus.htm

i especially like the fact that they flow test the manifold before and after. Obviously that doesn't take the head into account but a fair indication of their work.

[Mart]

Fair play on sniffing out an Alliance manifold - I hunted high & low for one of them years ago to no avail.

Sure, not the best manifold in existence, but better (read less restrictive, and the fact that it's pretty much bolt-on) than the 25mm venturi/32mm t.plate of the o.e carb.

[Scoff]

with enough boost to fill it it be fine


the days of 25psi being high boost are long gone

25psi is for running in, isn't it ? That borg warner of yours won't think anything of 2.5bar.

[Woznaldo]

You blokes have got a boost problem you need to speak to someone about .