efi c1j vs f4r/f4rt

[mike r5 gtt]

iv decided that its time for a change on one of my 5s and so was planning on changing its c1j to efi.
iv looked in 2 it and other than not having a cue about the mapping process the conversion doesnt look too bad!!and im sure i could learn what all those numbers mean!!

but iv always wanted to do a f4rt conversion but havnt had the bottle!!
so the question is would a f4rt conversion but much more beneficial than a efi c1j???
power,reliability,fun factor etc
i no the f4rt would be a hell of a lot more work such as running gear and mounting it etc

any help or advise as i no lots of you guys and gals have efi and f4rt 5's

[Os8472]

with my efi c1j if i had the chance to go back and do it over i proberbly won't have even bothered with efi and just chucked a bigger engine because an efi c1j just isn't going to do what i want in an engine but thats not to say its a bad idea.

Now i've got everything worked out it runs well, does 40+ mpg and i'm even having to fit a smaller than standard rad as the car runs to cold, never thought i'd say that about a 5.

At the end f the day it depends on what you want your car to do, yes an efi c1j will make fairly good power and will be fairly reliable but once you get past say 220bhp its gets exspsive, you'll waer ou cam bearings, big end bearings take alot of abuse, piston ring lands won't stand up to silly boost all day.

If you want silly big power go for the f4rt, if you want 220ish bhp go for the efi c1j or to look a it a different way, if you want a power and squirt drag car use the f4rt or if you want a nippy lightweight track car stick with the c1j

[TNT ANDY]

I would tend to agree with oli.

I have also converted my C1J to EFI (not mapped yet), but if I were to set out to do it all again, theory and economics would definitly put me in the B18 / f series engine category. Although I'm not sure if the 'character' of the car will still be there without the C1J, time will tell if people are as happy with there 'b' or 'f' series conversions. At the end of the day, it is all about what you want out of your car.

Scoff is chasing / setting the 1/4 mile records
Handy Andy and Oli want bragging rights at the pub with big BHP claims from the RR
Me - I am **** at fueling carbs and I want the flexibility of a more modern ECU.

My intention is and always has been to get 200bhp from my C1J which I'm sure will be more than enough for me, I was very happy with the feel of my 180 bhp I used to have I'm sure that 200 will be just as enjoyable. When I started my conversion (3-4 years ago) the engine conversions above where not as popular as they are now and this seemed to be the way forward. If I were to start today I would ask members who have done the conversions to let me drive there cars and seriously consider both routes.

Hope this helps

[Os8472]

I would tend to agree with oli.

I have also converted my C1J to EFI (not mapped yet), but if I were to set out to do it all again, theory and economics would definitly put me in the B18 / f series engine category. Although I'm not sure if the 'character' of the car will still be there without the C1J, time will tell if people are as happy with there 'b' or 'f' series conversions. At the end of the day, it is all about what you want out of your car.

Scoff is chasing / setting the 1/4 mile records
Handy Andy and Oli want bragging rights at the pub with big BHP claims from the RR
Me - I am **** at fueling carbs and I want the flexibility of a more modern ECU.

My intention is and always has been to get 200bhp from my C1J which I'm sure will be more than enough for me, I was very happy with the feel of my 180 bhp I used to have I'm sure that 200 will be just as enjoyable. When I started my conversion (3-4 years ago) the engine conversions above where not as popular as they are now and this seemed to be the way forward. If I were to start today I would ask members who have done the conversions to let me drive there cars and seriously consider both routes.

Hope this helps

Bragging rights? Andy ya cheeky fecker

I ain't going for bragging rights, if i was i wouldn't be sticking with a t28, i'm aiming for somit that'll hold its own on a track with seriously fast cars and can show up the ****s in exotics

[HAndy]

Scoff is chasing / setting the 1/4 mile records
Handy Andy and Oli want bragging rights at the pub with big BHP claims from the RR
Me - I am **** at fueling carbs and I want the flexibility of a more modern ECU.


oh dear you never read the last page of my project then

[mike r5 gtt]

at the min i use the car afew days a week so efi would just make it more reliable and maybe add abit of power
but if i were to go f4rt im not sure how user friendly it would be?

also if i did go f4rt im guessing the extra weight would change the car completely?

[SCHWARTZ]

I went down the b18ft route as there was the most info on it and as a few people were doing it at the time. I dont really notice the extra weight and being only 8v its not mega heavy but still has a good strong block. Pulls well in any gear with a t2/25 starts first time and you can drive it away straight away on a cold morning

[Os8472]

I went down the b18ft route as there was the most info on it and as a few people were doing it at the time. I dont really notice the extra weight and being only 8v its not mega heavy but still has a good strong block. Pulls well in any gear with a t2/25 starts first time and you can drive it away straight away on a cold morning

My efi 5 starts first time and be driven straight away when cold.

The old c1j is still a good engine, just needs bringing up todate

[mike r5 gtt]

i hadnt thought or looked into the volvo route as if i was going to dive in and go for a conversion then the f4rt is a much newer engine and also i can get bits cheap where as i have never touched the volvo lump but it maybe worth a look!

[SCHWARTZ]

not saying the c1j is a bad engine as it look what people have achieved with them but like you said needs bringing up to date. But for the cost of making it efi surely its better going for a larger capacity engine with efi as standard so its not as highly strung to make the power. the "volvo" lump is a renault engine so some clio and 5 gtx etc... parts will fit it

[TNT ANDY]

My efi 5 starts first time and be driven straight away when cold.

The old c1j is still a good engine, just needs bringing up todate

Yup I remember that at national day 09 just after bragging how reliable it was it wouldn't start. Classic

[TNT ANDY]

not saying the c1j is a bad engine as it look what people have achieved with them but like you said needs bringing up to date. But for the cost of making it efi surely its better going for a larger capacity engine with efi as standard so its not as highly strung to make the power. the "volvo" lump is a renault engine so some clio and 5 gtx etc... parts will fit it

Absolutely spot on unless you have the horn for the C1J, EFI'ing it is costly on the C1J

[Brigsy]

My efi 5 starts first time and be driven straight away when cold.

The old c1j is still a good engine, just needs bringing up todate

Why does it need bringing up to date when the rest of the car is old skool Anyway both of mine work straight from cold and the van still pulls good bhp with the 'out of date carb'

Personally i wouldnt bother with efi or bigger engine unless you want to chase the big bhp figures, if your only after a couple of hundred bhp fitting a bigger lump/efi c1j is the costly way to do it.

[TNT ANDY]

TNT Ross has an absolutely fantastic C1J on carb with mappable ignition - goes very very well. I'll be happy if mine (efi) goes as well as his.

[mike r5 gtt]

Personally i wouldnt bother with efi or bigger engine unless you want to chase the big bhp figures, if your only after a couple of hundred bhp fitting a bigger lump/efi c1j is the costly way to do it.[/quote]

im not slagging carbs!all three of my 5s currently run carbs without any probs!

the main reason was iv always wanted to have a go at a conversion or efi my 5 as iv converted afew ford before but its much easier as they all have bits from other models that are available.
as for power im not too bothered but if i did a f4rt then id prob end up power obsessed and spend all my time at the pod

[Os8472]

Yup I remember that at national day 09 just after bragging how reliable it was it wouldn't start. Classic

Yeah ok, i admit it, there were a few theething problems early on, 99% are now sorted and it does start first time ever time (now watch it not start tomorrow morn )

[TNT ANDY]

Yeah ok, i admit it, there were a few theething problems early on, 99% are now sorted and it does start first time ever time (now watch it not start tomorrow morn )

[5teve L]

I weighed up the cost & hassle involved in all the conversions.
Although the Volvo route was easiest, it hadn't been proven for anything over 230 bhp IIRC so I went F7P in the hope I could have a reliable 250 bhp with the option of going for more if I wanted.
The humped bonnet is what put me off the F4 conversion the most.
To Efi a C1J was going to cost just as much as any of the other conversions & the engine is rubbish compared to the 16v TBH, totally different league.
I hope I don't have to back track on that statement

[Matt Cole]

What i think is needed is a full bolt on EFI kit available in the UK. Even the ecu could be mapped basic for getting it up and running. Not sure why no one has put a package together???!!. The manifold being the biggest challenge but with enough interest, the price could be squeezed down.

This would be the cheapest option i wreckon, and 220bhp in a car that weighs as much as a fag packet is more than ample!!

[TrixNFlix]

What i think is needed is a full bolt on EFI kit available in the UK. Even the ecu could be mapped basic for getting it up and running. Not sure why no one has put a package together???!!. The manifold being the biggest challenge but with enough interest, the price could be squeezed down.

This would be the cheapest option i wreckon, and 220bhp in a car that weighs as much as a fag packet is more than ample!!

For that Sort of power the b18ft is the cheapest route to take, easily.

[SCHWARTZ]

For that Sort of power the b18ft is the cheapest route to take, easily.

Think the blokes on the volvo forums are getting 300bhp out of the b18ft's not too shabby

[Os8472]

the way i see it is there a few simple options

1. For 200bhp a c1j is up to the job

2. For 220 - 230 bhp efi c1j for those that want to stick the classic simple engine

3. 230 to 280bhp the volvo lump is a reletive cheap way to get there

4. An f4rt for 300bhp plus but then it would be the most work and cost but would aslo be very unstressed to make that kind of power compared to c1j or volvo lump

5. Just do a handy andy, nail a super charger and a turbo the size of a bin lid on an f7p

[HAndy]

why the f4 engine anyway?
stick with old skool f series either the f7 or b18f better built, cheaper to buy and build, and less crap to go wrong

[SCHWARTZ]

why the f4 engine anyway?
stick with old skool f series either the f7 or b18f better built, cheaper to buy and build, and less crap to go wrong

I like simple things

[Os8472]

I like simple things

You want simple, stick with the c1j

[HAndy]

You want simple, stick with the c1j

cant be cross flow
what were the words you used earlier....

[SCHWARTZ]

You want simple, stick with the c1j

simple with a hint of intelligence

[Os8472]

cant be cross flow
what were the words you used earlier....

Just sayin the c1j is the most simple engine out of the bunch and can give a reliable 200bhp.

But if u want anymore than that its gotta go if you want reliability.............. oh and before mr butterbollox pipes that his 220bhp c1j hasn't broken in 3 years i'll point out his c1j hasn't done 5000miles in the last 3 years, sorry butterbean

[HAndy]

Just sayin the c1j is the most simple engine out of the bunch and can give a reliable 200bhp.

But if u want anymore than that its gotta go if you want reliability.............. oh and before mr butterbollox pipes that his 220bhp c1j hasn't broken in 3 years i'll point out his c1j hasn't done 5000miles in the last 3 years, sorry butterbean

harsh.....but true
may i add that 4495miles will have been spent in 5th gear with the speedo reading a steady 50mph

[Hi 5]

the way i see it is there a few simple options

1. For 200bhp a c1j is up to the job

2. For 220 - 230 bhp efi c1j for those that want to stick the classic simple engine

3. 230 to 280bhp the volvo lump is a reletive cheap way to get there

4. An f4rt for 300bhp plus but then it would be the most work and cost but would aslo be very unstressed to make that kind of power compared to c1j or volvo lump

5. Just do a handy andy, nail a super charger and a turbo the size of a bin lid on an f7p

why not c1j with 400+ bhp on efi scrap the rest

[SCHWARTZ]

very impressive but how do you think it would fare as an every day car?

[Os8472]

why not c1j with 400+ bhp on efi scrap the rest

It'd be nice but to make 400bhp in a 5 with a c1j would either **** loads of nitrous or massive amounts of boost, in either case it won't last long before bits start to ware or explode

Besides 400bhp on a track would be pointless cus you'd never be able to use all that power in a corner on a fwd.

Drag racing yeah but not on track

[Hi 5]

It'd be nice but to make 400bhp in a 5 with a c1j would either **** loads of nitrous or massive amounts of boost, in either case it won't last long before bits start to ware or explode

Besides 400bhp on a track would be pointless cus you'd never be able to use all that power in a corner on a fwd.

Drag racing yeah but not on track

yes but i like loads cos am a greedy dastard 450 next year lol

[Hi 5]

very impressive but how do you think it would fare as an every day car?

i have used it to take my 78 year old mum shopping to tesco's and my son to school etc and its stayed together all year inc over 200 drag strip runs

[Os8472]

i have used it to take my 78 year old mum shopping to tesco's and my son to school etc and its stayed together all year inc over 200 drag strip runs

Lol bet ya mum **** herself when you put ya foot down.

I take it you didn't use the nitrous on those trips

[mike r5 gtt]

why not c1j with 400+ bhp on efi scrap the rest

i wish !!!!
watching your car at pod is one of the reasons i was considering an efi c1j!!

[mike r5 gtt]

why the f4 engine anyway?
stick with old skool f series either the f7 or b18f better built, cheaper to buy and build, and less crap to go wrong

the two main reasons for the f4 engine was because its a newer engine that would not be as stessed and also as said iv played with afew of these so no what im doing and can get bits

[Hi 5]

the two main reasons for the f4 engine was because its a newer engine that would not be as stessed and also as said iv played with afew of these so no what im doing and can get bits

fare play i cant say anything i think a efi c1j is very very good completly different to drive from the carb model up to you son good luck with wot ever you do

[Os8472]

fare play i cant say anything i think a efi c1j is very very good completly different to drive from the carb model up to you son good luck with wot ever you do

I agree the c1j with efi is a very different engine to use but for me its always felt stressed and i end up gauge watching when i should be concentrating on which m3 i'll pass next

There's no dowt the c1j can make big power, its just the fact it won't last long making big power, it is only a 1.4 at the end of the day and with parts for them getting less and less comon the c1j could die out completely if were not carefull

[Scoff]

I don't understand how something can feel stressed ? Do you mean things actually break, or that you're just worried they will ? The C1J is perfectly reliable given certain conditions. I think they're fine if the RPM's are sensible and if it's built with the right parts. It'll never cease to amaze me how much power they will hold and how much abuse they will take when the right conditions are met.

90% of C1J failures are because either the carburettor stuffed up, wasn't jetted right or because of an ignition problem. Remove those factors and you have something much more robust. But, don't expect EFI to go making stacks more power at the same boost because it won't. What it will do is mean that you can map for anything you like. For instance, Glenn's C1J is mapped for 2.5bar of boost. I mean literally you can sit in 5th gear with your foot to the floor with 35psi on the boost gauge and nothing flinches. That's the advantage of EFI.

[Hi 5]

I don't understand how something can feel stressed ? Do you mean things actually break, or that you're just worried they will ? The C1J is perfectly reliable given certain conditions. I think they're fine if the RPM's are sensible and if it's built with the right parts. It'll never cease to amaze me how much power they will hold and how much abuse they will take when the right conditions are met.

90% of C1J failures are because either the carburettor stuffed up, wasn't jetted right or because of an ignition problem. Remove those factors and you have something much more robust. But, don't expect EFI to go making stacks more power at the same boost because it won't. What it will do is mean that you can map for anything you like. For instance, Glenn's C1J is mapped for 2.5bar of boost. I mean literally you can sit in 5th gear with your foot to the floor with 35psi on the boost gauge and nothing flinches. That's the advantage of EFI.

yes because its ****ing ace efi c1j is the future and if built right you will only need 1 engine

[SCHWARTZ]

It is amazing what power can be made by these little 1.4l lumps.

[HAndy]

yes because its ****ing ace efi c1j is the future and if built right you will only need 1 engine

dont agree, that amount of boost is putting strain on the engine ,regardless of the fact fueling is spot on, you cant use a highly strung c1j for everyday life that most peeps use these cars for, fine if you want to strip race or short period driving,and have the level of skills required to build and maintain at an affordable price, the bigger engines produce the same and more bhp for less psi and less stress on engine parts ,and the fact that the bigger engines have efi as standard , without the extra fabrication expense, that said c1j are cheaper for parts and engine builds, but for how long !!

[Scoff]

Andy (and partly to Oli) while I agree that the F engine is leagues better in about every sence you can't confuse boost with stress. Boost is something you need to get air into the cylinders. It's not a measure of how stressed the internals are. The same engine block with a crappy 8V head might need 30psi of boost to make the same output as a well sorted 16v crossflow head at 15psi. Is one configuration more stressed than the other ? Not really.

I mean, lets asume you have a C1J with the right internals. If we have a good tune, no detonation and sensible EGT then what is going to break ?

As much as I'm not the worlds biggest C1J fan I can acknowledge why things break. My old C1J problems all stemmed from RPM. If you keep that in check, they can do some amazing things, quite reliably too.

[HAndy]

fair play

[Os8472]

Andy (and partly to Oli) while I agree that the F engine is leagues better in about every sence you can't confuse boost with stress. Boost is something you need to get air into the cylinders. It's not a measure of how stressed the internals are. The same engine block with a crappy 8V head might need 30psi of boost to make the same output as a well sorted 16v crossflow head at 15psi. Is one configuration more stressed than the other ? Not really.

I mean, lets asume you have a C1J with the right internals. If we have a good tune, no detonation and sensible EGT then what is going to break ?

As much as I'm not the worlds biggest C1J fan I can acknowledge why things break. My old C1J problems all stemmed from RPM. If you keep that in check, they can do some amazing things, quite reliably too.

The problems you had with a c1j that led you to go f4r are exactly what i mean, yeah there is no dowt the c1j is an amazing engine and i don't think you'll find another 1.4 that can do what it can but at the end of the day the c1j can make the power the F series can but it won't last, whats the point in saying "yes i have 300bhp, but i can only use it once a week for 30 seconds at a time", where as a well built F series will make more power at the same boost and can rev higher when ever you like without wearing out things like cam bearings, big end bearings, cracking liners for example.

Yes the c1j is good but its old, parts are limited, you can get more out of more modern engines and the compertition are getting faster and faster, time moves on and the c1j will go down in history as a amazing engine but its time is coming towards an end.

I've stuck with c1j and defended it against everyone who told me i could do more with something else but time and money have forced my hand to make a change but i intend to give the old girl under my care a damn good send off.

[Scoff]

the c1j can make the power the F series can but it won't last

That's the bit I'm having a problem digesting

[HAndy]

The problems you had with a c1j that led you to go f4r are exactly what i mean, yeah there is no dowt the c1j is an amazing engine and i don't think you'll find another 1.4 that can do what it can but at the end of the day the c1j can make the power the F series can but it won't last, whats the point in saying "yes i have 300bhp, but i can only use it once a week for 30 seconds at a time", where as a well built F series will make more power at the same boost and can rev higher when ever you like without wearing out things like cam bearings, big end bearings, cracking liners for example.

Yes the c1j is good but its old, parts are limited, you can get more out of more modern engines and the compertition are getting faster and faster, time moves on and the c1j will go down in history as a amazing engine but its time is coming towards an end.

I've stuck with c1j and defended it against everyone who told me i could do more with something else but time and money have forced my hand to make a change but i intend to give the old girl under my care a damn good send off.

more to the point i was trying to make ..that most members dont have the skills and knowledge and the time /patience that you have scoff ,and to achieve that perfect c1j ,that would take that kind of power/perfect engine setup is never going to happen , without a large bill at a tuners ,and even then thats not 100% defo going to make the mark ,you have pushed that c1j well beyond what most people are capable of with both time and effort and mechanical know how but for the rest of us who ,lets face it are not so gifted
the bigger engine route is safer (with a little more room for error) to achieve more hp in a 5gtt than the c1j

[SCHWARTZ]

That's the bit I'm having a problem digesting

Its not possible for it to.

[Adey aka Ewok]

That's the bit I'm having a problem digesting

what sorta power do you think your engine is producing scoff? and is there anyone close with a c1j?