bring out your cams - F4R edition

[Andrew Cooke]

carrying on the theme of attempting to measure every C1J cam I'm looking to do the same for F4R cams.

https://www.rtoc.org/cam/

Thanks to SP33DY generously sending me a scrap head I've just about finished converting it into a measuring rig. I'm doing things a bit differently this time, previously I measured lobe lift manually every degree and plotted them out. It took most of an evening to do each cam. The F4R will be twice that job, so I've built a rig to measure and log automatically. I should be able to measure the first cams tomorrow night. Not too many to look at so far, but I have had the following sent to me:

172 cams - Scoff
F4RT 225 cams - SP33DY

We'll only get a decent load of data if members send me cams to measure, so, if you have anything hidden away, or know someone with cams lying around send them to me, I'll measure them and send them back. Now, I realise it costs you to send me cams, but it also costs me to send them back, have a look how many C1J cams I measured and you'll have some idea what members and I have paid out for the benefit of the club.

Andy

[Scoff]

Will you plot them relative to tdc Andy ? Good luck, I'll be really interested in the results. I don't have any other sticks to send you though, we'll want to see those catcams and schrick's

If the cam wizard code needs tweaking to plot the results just let me know.

[Andrew Cooke]

Will you plot them relative to tdc Andy ? Good luck, I'll be really interested in the results. I don't have any other sticks to send you though, we'll want to see those catcams and schrick's

If the cam wizard code needs tweaking to plot the results just let me know.

Yep, relative to TDC, so now the plots are crank angle against valve lift. Should be much simpler than the last version, but cam wizard will need some changes. I've just got it working, damn, it's so quick to do now

I'll send you some excel files sometime over the weekend

[SP33DY]

I'll try and do some wheeling dealing over on cliosport, if I can get catcams cheap enough I might be able to get them measured and make a couple of quid to cover p+p

[Andrew Cooke]

I'll try and do some wheeling dealing over on cliosport, if I can get catcams cheap enough I might be able to get them measured and make a couple of quid to cover p+p

You're taking this all too seriously which is great... I hear a rumour on the wind of some Schricks too.

Chris - I was just thinking, we'll also need a VVT button adding to the program, it'd be nice to be able to just click the cam in and out.

[Matt Cole]

It will be very interesting to see the differences between the 225 cams and 172's. Im not convinced theres a great deal in it, but hey hats off to you Andy for making the info available.

[SP33DY]

Matt heres a link to the basic measurements Andrew took of the cams me and Scoff sent him

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...F4R%20cams.JPG

As you can see there isn't much between the ex cams but inlets are different

[Andrew Cooke]

Matt heres a link to the basic measurements Andrew took of the cams me and Scoff sent him

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...F4R%20cams.JPG

As you can see there isn't much between the ex cams but inlets are different

that was just the bare lobes measured roughly in my lathe, arter the weekend we should have valve profiles correctly timed to the engine. From my quick look last night the F4RT inlet has very little lift at TDC.

[Matt Cole]

that was just the bare lobes measured roughly in my lathe, arter the weekend we should have valve profiles correctly timed to the engine. From my quick look last night the F4RT inlet has very little lift at TDC.

Interesting. Why do you think this is Andy? I have contemplated on wether to change the inlet cam on mine to that of a 172.

[Andrew Cooke]

Interesting. Why do you think this is Andy? I have contemplated on wether to change the inlet cam on mine to that of a 172.

because it's a production turbo engine, and overlap is bad mkay...

you've changed your tune

[SP33DY]

TBH Matt I'm not sure they'll fit as they normal 182 pistons (and the wossner 8.5:1 that are fitted to mine) have larger valve cut outs in the top of the pistons.

[i l k e r]

that was just the bare lobes measured roughly in my lathe, arter the weekend we should have valve profiles correctly timed to the engine. From my quick look last night the F4RT inlet has very little lift at TDC.

Andy,
is it possible that this is in relation with the F4RT inlet ports being tiny?

[Scoff]

It will be very interesting to see the differences between the 225 cams and 172's. Im not convinced theres a great deal in it, but hey hats off to you Andy for making the info available.

I wonder if Andy G still has the old laguna cams ? When he swapped to the 225 sticks I had to make noticable changes (for the better) to his fuel map. The laguna cams must be very tame.

Would a 172 inlet cam go into the F4RT head ? I think that it might if you use a locked de-phaser pulley or machined up a spare exhaust or 225 solid pulley as I've done.

I am back at Paul / RS tuning's next week to do a job so I will ask him about the possibilty of gaining cams for measurement.

[Andrew Cooke]

I am back at Paul / RS tuning's next week to do a job so I will ask him about the possibilty of gaining cams for measurement.

if you get chance slip his std ecu programming stuff into your pocket

[Andrew Cooke]

hot off the press, SP33DY's F4RT 225 cams

[Mart]

Good work (again) mate. Nice

[Spooky]

Ahh, you've got a pair of 172 sticks already.

I could have a pair of the engine dynamics cams, once I do, I'll drop them down to you

[Andrew Cooke]

Ahh, you've got a pair of 172 sticks already.

I could have a pair of the engine dynamics cams, once I do, I'll drop them down to you

already covered

[Andrew Cooke]

and compared to 172 cams, just shows how dreadful my lathe measurements were

[SP33DY]

Good work Andrew

I've been doing a bit digging around ref pictures of both F4R pistons and F4RT pistons so people who read the thread understand what I'm talking about with regards to valve pockets.

Heres a pic (not the best) that I took whilst doing the low compression conversion on my clio, there 8.5:1 wossners and the pic was taken from the front of the car. You can see from Andrews plot above that the inlet has a higher lift than the exhaust and this is reflected in the crown of the piston with larger cut outs at the front.



Heres a pic that I stole from AndyRG build thread as you can see there are no valve cout outs at all?




Now this raises all kinds of questions as to why it hasn't got cut outs, eg no lift at TDC? cams so mild theres nothing to worry about?etc... all issues Mr Cooke is hoping to figure out by measuring them in a cylinderhead.

As for mixing the F4RT engine with F4R cams I'd probably approach it with a bit of caution.

[Andrew Cooke]

You're almost there Steve,

If the pistons hit it's just off TDC, and nowhere near full lift (so either as the exhaust valve is closing, or as the inlet valve is opening). If you look at the turbo and NA cams they are almost identical as the inlet valve opens. There will be no problem with the 172 cam hitting the pistons in a 225 engine. Assuming that is that the cam is installed in the design position, ie retarded compared to how the 172 runs with VVT engaged.

The reason for the cutouts is that the 172 cam advances 16deg when VVT actuates, it's likely that the valves and pistons would hit if you ran this cam in a 225 in the advanced position.

[SP33DY]

Forgot all about the VVT everythings fell into place now.

[Matt Cole]

I didnt know that the 172 cams had that much more lift over the 225 cams. I think for me i would look at a cam with slightly more lift but the same duration? I'm now wondering if the inlet valve in the 225 head is larger than a 172 one?

[andyrg]

ill measure the valves from the 225 head mate

[Matt Cole]

Just to revive an old but very good thread, i now have a set of 182 cams to use with the 225 head. Andy Cooke, did you ever get to measure the valves in the 225 head?

[Matt Cole]

Found a bit of info on the valves, apparently they are the same size between the heads? So is it port size/shape that is different?

[Andrew Cooke]

I've never seen a 225 head, but have measured 225 cams in a 172 head

[Matt Cole]

Ah ok, thats a shame. Ok what duration and phasing are the 172 / 225 cams? I see the lift is increased on the 172's so thats a plus. If using the 172 cams, what would be the best to start with (dialling them in) degrees wise to take into consideration the 172's VVT? I was thinking maybe 5 deg and see what the curve shows?

[Tutuur]

being directed here by Trevih i wonder if there has been any further developement?

personally i'm more interested in F7 cams but the differences are interesting none the less, after Trevih has shown me the cam plotter i'm sold and would like to plot some F7 cams!

this what i've found regarding F7R/P cams and i wonder if they are accurate (supposely they are):


this also show why the F7P seems to be more rev happy, the exhaust cam is more retarded but intake advanced resulting in more overlap

[Matt Cole]

Oldie but goodie. Ive decided to use a 172 head, 182 inlet and 'other' exhaust cam with adjustable vernier. Using the dephaser and solenoid too.

[Tutuur]

Other exhaust cam as in?

I've read about 8v cam somewhere on CS too but no idea what 8v cam it should be and how it compares...

[Trevhib]

Artur, to get this tool updated, I guess you'll have to follow the same process as Andy in physically measuring the cams. Then ask Scoff to update the tool with your measurements. Gutted Andy is not around these days.

[Tutuur]

think i'll just try adjusting my cams and see where it's going. however i would like to do it just for science

i have willy cams which i can measure atm

[Tutuur]

I've bought some dti's so will be going to measure 16v and williams cams for the ones interested. Will do the 16v first as i have a spare engine kicking about...

Hope to confirm the specs above and also make a graph if i find out how to make it at it's best.

Any tips Andrew?

[Tutuur]

also i'm curious what the numbers of the 172 cams are?

the graph looks great but not really accurate to get timing numbers from it

[Trevhib]

Looks like Andy was last on RTOC on 27th Jul, so he's still about periodically. Maybe PM him or maybe Scoff to get Andy's contact details Artur Would be good to see this tool reignited and updated.

[Andrew Cooke]

I've bought some dti's so will be going to measure 16v and williams cams for the ones interested. Will do the 16v first as i have a spare engine kicking about...

Hope to confirm the specs above and also make a graph if i find out how to make it at it's best.

Any tips Andrew?

With the 172 cams I made solid lifters and shimmed them so that the valves are always a tiny bit open. I fitted the timing jig so that the cams were in design position. Initially I used a degree wheel and DTI plotting every degree, I've since make some kit that allows me to log angle and lift making the job a lot faster. Note that the 2 lobes on the 172 are timed 2deg apart from each other, so I plot all 4 valves.

Andy

[Tutuur]

i've measured some 16v cams a while ago, we're now building an F7r so i hope my mate gives me some time to measure them.

only did max lift, duration at 1mm and 0,1mm and timing atdc.