Legalities of manufacturing parts

[Ricardo]

**Dawn edit: I've moved all the posts regarding this topic into this new thread as there's quite a few of them...**

RE: Club Shop

Group buys organised by club members for parts sourced or made. I remember when i had the caliper extenders made up i had a list of say 25 definites for sets made up, i then had to collect all the money prior to ordering them which obviously took a little time. Would it be possible if there was definite interest for the club to make a full payment upfront? It would speed up the process, people could pay a small non refundable deposit to the club when they put their name down, and then when they're made they can pay the rest then have them sent to them.

If people fail to buy them 1: The club win with the non refundable deposit 2: Sell them through the shop.

I know group buys are few and far between or isn't there any call for this. I know with the extenders the more sets made the cheaper they'd be. Can't remember if this type of thing has been discussed already

[car.crash]

Nice one chris
that's the kind of thing I was looking for ricardo but didn't phrase it as good. With club backing and funding maybe more people will put their contacts and skills to good use to have parts made. But the club must be carefull not to get stung as miller said.

[Ricardo]

When i did the group buy i was fortunate enough to have the 25 people interested trust me enough with their hard earned money, then wait patiently for me to collect it all, have the parts made then have me send them out. I think from start to finish it was about 2ish months. If the club were involved they could have written a cheque the same day i had the all in qoute, made within 3 days then sent out by the end of the week.

[Ian S]

When i did the group buy i was fortunate enough to have the 25 people interested trust me enough with their hard earned money, then wait patiently for me to collect it all, have the parts made then have me send them out. I think from start to finish it was about 2ish months. If the club were involved they could have written a cheque the same day i had the all in quote, made within 3 days then sent out by the end of the week.

Yep, could have, but you never asked me. I didn't know you were doing it.

Some people do make a profit from this kind of small private enterprise and really don't want the club 'muscling in' on their act. They're doing it for the money, not for the club, usually also motivated by a self need to not pay the retail price on whatever part their obtaining / having made for themselves.

It's rare that anyone asks up to pay for their group buy idea. Sometimes when they have, the idea is found to be not really viable anyway.

[D4WNO]

I think Ricky was only using that as an example SHOULD the club have done that sort of thing at the time.

I think people don't realise the club gets involved more than they think, most recently with the orange dials that Steve arranged.

[Ricardo]

I didn't mind doing it Ian, quite enjoyed it and also didn't make anything out of it just nice i could do something. More chuffed they actually worked

At least people know if there's potential for a part to be made that numerous people would buy, the group buy can go ahead and be done fairly quickly, better going through the club than 1 club member... The element of trust

[Ricardo]

I think Ricky was only using that as an example SHOULD the club have done that sort of thing at the time.

I think people don't realise the club gets involved more than they think, most recently with the orange dials that Steve arranged.

Thanks Dawn

[Ashy]

More chuffed they actually worked

Joking aside the club has to be careful what it gets involved in aswell. For example on these calliper brackets you had designed them and made but what if the material wasn't the correct grade or it has imperfections in it and through no fault of anyone’s one fails in use? And what if someone had a bad crash as a result. Its all hypothetical I know but had the club sold these parts who would be liable?

[Ricardo]

Joking aside the club has to be careful what it gets involved in aswell. For example on these calliper brackets you had designed them and made but what if the material wasn't the correct grade or it has imperfections in it and through no fault of anyone’s one fails in use? And what if someone had a bad crash as a result. Its all hypothetical I know but had the club sold these parts who would be liable?

I know where you're coming from regards safety etc.

I had them made from the same grade HE30 billet as the K Tec items, i'm also pretty sure the company wouldn't have given me any faulty brackets if there were any imperfections. Do K Tec have any kitemarks/ BS standard markings on there's or do you trust them because you buy them from a 'reputable' 'tuner'??

Also, i've no come backs from anyone since these were made 2-3 years ago, i used them myself. I know where you're coming from though Ash, i'm pretty sure you actually wanted the drawings from me at 1 point to look into having these made

[Ian S]

would be liable?

As I mentioned before on the committee boards about us supplying brake lines..

I assume, as we're not a limited company, the club members would be liable, or maybe those acting on their behalf, ie, the committee. So if a brackets metal was a poor quality crystal and fractured and a third partly suffered a large loss we have to pay that ourselves.

Initially the third party would sue the driver of the vehicle, then that persons insurance company MAY find that the part that was defective was supplied by us and then try to avoid payment by making us pay by suing the club. If it won then the members may peruse a class action counter lawsuit against the committee.

I don't know if it would be possible to have a legally binding waiver of liability as part of our sale of such items.

[Ricardo]

I'm still waiting aswell, chop chop

I'll go have a look for it tonight

[Penfold aka The Dealer]

Ricardo's extender's are top work, I am not sure but i think the manufacturer maybe liable in unlikely event in product failure etc not the club..

I have a set of the extenders at a machining workshop i know, there gonna replicate them using the same HE30 aluminum & once i have a price on them i will be asking if people want to buy them from me direct, which i will be selling to break even... hopefully I wont be left with 50 pairs of extenders in my room forever

[Ian S]

As far as third parties are concerned, if the club was having them made would that not mean the club was the manufacturer?

The club would then have to seek compensation from the company it subcontracted the work to??

Penfold is your supplier giving you a statement of conformity?

Would they be able to deny all knowledge if there was a fault?

Basically, the third party or their legal representative or insurance company would sue anyone they thought they could win money from. If the suppler you're using is a limited liability company and protected from meeting all of the claimed debt, and you are not protected then you'd have to defend yourself in court against them and face probably bankruptcy just from the legal fees.

The only people who do well out of any of this are everybodies lawyers.

The part has to be shown to up to a standard and so not going to cause a fault. If simply using that grade of aluminium is sufficient, and the supplier proves that these brackets are that grade of material so you can in turn prove it then I would guess that will protect you from claims.

[Ricardo]

K Tec use the same grade HE30

[Kenobi]

K Tec use the same grade HE30

Spoke to Dave ay K-Tec today. Sound bloke very helpful.

What sort of deal have RTOC got with k-tec?

[Ricardo]

The reason why i did the extenders was certain outfits would sell the 285mm complete kits for premium money. I sold the brackets for £30, along with a set of OE 21 TXi discs for about £60 it's not hard to work out why people wanted to buy mine.

[Ashy]

K Tec use the same grade HE30

We machine thousands of components for a wide variety of customers each month and we do occasionaly have problems with different batches of material. Unless the raw material has had ultrasonic testing carried out by the mill (and thats not always 100% accurate) you have no way knowing that there aren't underlying flaws or defects in it.

The machine shop wouldn't take liability for any defects unless you requested they carry out NDE testing on the finished components, they may offer a CofC but that would only specify that the correct grade of material was used and that the parts were dimensionaly accurate to the drawing supplied.

[Ian S]

a CofC but that would only specify that the correct grade of material was used and that the parts were dimensionaly accurate to the drawing supplied.

Still, from a protecting yourself from lawsuits point of view that's better than nothing I guess.

I wonder do ktec and the others get there brackets tested?

Two different grades of HE30, plus some other Aluminium alloys: http://www.manholes.co.uk/specsheet/ali.htm

[Ian S]

Spoke to Dave ay K-Tec today. Sound bloke very helpful.

What sort of deal have RTOC got with k-tec?

None.

They don't really like us us we tend to tell members the truth that, eg, the £300 or whatever brake kits can be had for £60.

Or their super secret cam is similar to a Piper 270 but with the duration of the 285. And now there's even an interactive graph to show exactly how it compares.

No, that all upsets them quit a bit.

[Miller]

Or they buy raceland manifolds....

http://www.kamracing.co.uk/index.php...-gt-turbo.html

Then sell them as their own........

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=124

[Bigfoot]

Or they buy raceland manifolds....

http://www.kamracing.co.uk/index.php...-gt-turbo.html

Then sell them as their own........

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=124

Buy frim raceland, and see what they get on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/renault-5-gt-t...item1e5a9756ed

[Miller]

Buy frim raceland, and see what they get on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/renault-5-gt-t...item1e5a9756ed

That is not the raceland manifold....look at the collector. that is the one k-tec tried to do the first time

Anyway back on topic

[Ricardo]

When i have a drawing for an engineering company to make me whatever's on there to a grade HE30 or whatever alloy, i'm entrusting them to carry out such a job. Being the paying customer and them being a company in business for X amount of years you'd naturally expect them to turn out a precision piece of engineering to whatever's on that drawing to the highest quality

[Mart]

But as Ashy said, you can't always account for material quality. We've recently had the same problem with components (shady tolerances), and even soldering of the components, on some of the pcb's we use at work.

What you done was bob on for the club/members Ricky, and I think all & sundry appreciated that, but I can see the other side of the fence why the club might want to distant itself from future products of the same ish nature.

God forbid, but if someone was involved in a fatal accident and the caliper extenders (in this example) were found to be the root of the problem, you'd defo be taking a stand in front of the judge & jury, which, whatever the final outcome may be, isn't gonna be a nice experience.

[Ricardo]

Don't get me wrong i can see the other side of the coin, the 25 people who ordered them had the chance to think the same things before commiting to putting their hand in their pockets. Am i supposed to be there to test the quality of the billet myself then? Back to that old you pay someone for a service, then why should it be up to me for quality control. I'm not knocking it just to have it explained

[Ian S]

why should it be up to me for quality control

Simply because you're the supplier.

The domestic HiFi amplifiers we designed, made and sold had to be CE certified by us. We had the parts for that amplifier made for us by quite a few different companies but the end user sees us as the manufacturer, our name is one the box and giving the warranty and 'the state' takes action against us if some one complaints to, eg, trading standards. We have to make sure the product complies every way it has to, and that can mean making the various manufacturers prove to us they made their components and their suppliers comply.

[Mart]

That's just it though mate; if you wanted to cover your ass, then yeah, you should've had them QA/QC approved, as then it takes you out of the loop if it did all start going pear-shaped.

You know how quick people are to jump on the lawsuit train these days...

[Ricardo]

You know how quick people are to jump on the lawsuit train these days...

Too right, well if i approached another company and armed myself with the necessary questions and was provided with the right answers then there shouldn't be a reason why they can't be made again?

[clee]

When i have a drawing for an engineering company to make me whatever's on there to a grade HE30 or whatever alloy, i'm entrusting them to carry out such a job. Being the paying customer and them being a company in business for X amount of years you'd naturally expect them to turn out a precision piece of engineering to whatever's on that drawing to the highest quality

.............and what if the drawing you supply is wrong ?What if the design is flawed ? That's why design engineers carry indemnities .To get these you need professional qualifications before they will even look at covering you .

I can see some stress raisers on those brackets
I'm only pointing out the pitfalls ,the brackets are simple enough for all this not to matter but the risks are still there

[TrixNFlix]

Christ, the way this thread is going, no one is going to dare making parts up for anyone else.

[clee]

It's not as bad as all that but all it takes is one feck up and someone is always inventing a better idiot ,so just be aware

[Mart]

Christ, the way this thread is going, no one is going to dare making parts up for anyone else.

You're right, we should just stfu, get the parts made up, sell them through the club shop with an rtoc quality guarantee, and laugh in the face of any potential lawsuits later down the line.

[clee]

Yeh! too right ! ......let them sue !
I'm resigning as shop manager so over to you Mart

[TrixNFlix]

Quick get clee signed up as honorary club shop manager, and start the lawsuits, I won't be happy till I take his house of him! He can keep the gta though!

[clee]

Too late on the house front All I have left are children and Renaults

[Mart]

Yeh! too right ! ......let them sue !
I'm resigning as shop manager so over to you Mart

Slopey shoulders!

[Spooky]

If the parts or materials are not certified etc wouldn't something like a disclaimer be more beneficial for the seller?

That way if somebody does, god forbid they dont, wrap their car round a tree and it was due the extenders for example, there is no come back to the seller as the buyer knew the 'risk' of buying the said parts.

[clee]

Doesn't work that way .It would be nice but then someone could sell any old piece of ****e and get round it that way .
I thought you worked for Toyota

[Spooky]

Doesn't work that way .It would be nice but then someone could sell any old piece of ****e and get round it that way .
I thought you worked for Toyota

Yea thats true

Honda, Toyota, Nissan...all the same ...

[Ricardo]

.............and what if the drawing you supply is wrong ?What if the design is flawed ? That's why design engineers carry indemnities .To get these you need professional qualifications before they will even look at covering you .

I can see some stress raisers on those brackets
I'm only pointing out the pitfalls ,the brackets are simple enough for all this not to matter but the risks are still there

Hmm, i wonder how K Tec had theirs approved. They're no different (well 1% ) to the ones i had made

[clee]

I'm sure they haven't .It only becomes a problem when it becomes a problem .
CE mark is a good one .You can self certify and it only becomes an issue if something goes wrong .I think this has now changed but that used to be the case .CE marks mean diddly

[Penfold aka The Dealer]

Ok so lets say if i go ahead and get these made, and asked the supplier to make sure there QC checked and safe to use on the road's what would i have to ask for?

Could i not sell them as for show use only, just like they do for non road legal products (exhaust's, De-Cat's etc etc) ?

I have been given prices for them to be made up in numbers of 5,10,15, 20,25 & 30 pairs, but if i have to get them QC'd, insured against i doubt i will bother as no doubt price would be stupid amounts.

[clee]

Caliper extenders are not rocket science but still need correct material spec and machining to avoid stress points .
I doubt you will get much response if you ask for QC apart from size and tolerance .They will more than likely say ' don't be silly lad ' and they will be right



I'm not saying don't do it ,I'm just pointing out some of the pitfalls if the 'CLUB ' was to commission or stock them .
I've designed and had made stuff for the GTA lads including steering wheel bosses .Being in design I know the risks but designed it myself and had it made to my spec by people I've known and trusted for years .

[T.K]

Bottom line, if the club sells products that turn out to be dodgy then it could be liable.

If this is a risk you want to avoid, one idea would be to incorporate a private limited compay to act as the selling vehicle for the goods, with all of the shares held by the club. e.g. 'Renault Turbo Owners Club Sales Limited'

If there was a problem and an individual sued the seller, Renault Turbo Owners Club Sales Limited, the club's liability would be limited to the value of its shares in this company. Note that the directors of the company could potentially face personal liability in limited circumstances, which would have to be born in mind by those who accepted this role.

It would cost about £100 in fees to set up the company. Annual returns would have to be filed, and basic annual meetings held, so there would be a small ongoing cost. If it was selling stuff above a certain value it would have to be VAT registered etc. No rocket science though.

[Tony Walker]

Bottom line, if the club sells products that turn out to be dodgy then it could be liable.

If this is a risk you want to avoid, one idea would be to incorporate a private limited compay to act as the selling vehicle for the goods, with all of the shares held by the club. e.g. 'Renault Turbo Owner's Club Sales Limited'

If there was a problem and an individual sued the seller, Renault Turbo Owner's Club Sales Limited, the club's liability would be limited to the value of its shares in this company. Note that the directors of the company could potentially face personal liability in limited circumstances, which would have to be born in mind by those who accepted this role.

It would cost about £100 in fees to set up the company. Annual returns would have to be filed, and basic annual meetings held, so there would be a small ongoing cost. If it was selling stuff above a certain value it would have to be VAT registered etc. No rocket science though.

Isnt vat registered around £50,000 a year turnover? shouldnt be near that i wouldnt of thought? But obviously something to be aware of if it ever did arrive near those figures.

[T.K]

Yep. Not really realistic, but hey...! Just trying to point some of the admin issues.

Of course, this plan is not bullet proof, but its much better than someone being able to sue the club directly.

[Tony Walker]

Yep. Not really realistic, but hey...! Just trying to point some of the admin issues.

Of course, this plan is not bullet proof, but its much better than someone being able to sue the club directly.

Yeah i agree just thought id point it out for those that didnt know.

[T.K]

I should say, Renault Turbo Owners Club Sales Limited should also enter into any contracts with the suppliers/ manufacturers of the parts rather than the club itself.

[Andrew Cooke]

can they be sold 'competition use only'? or whatever it says on the side of slicks.

eg:
" Performance products are designed for competition use only and should never be used on public roads, unless so noted for such use. It is the consumers responsibility to check compliance with federal, state, and local laws before operating a modified vehicle on public roads. Performance parts manufactured or assembled by CTA Automotive Consulting are intended for competition use only and are not backed by any guarantees or warranties, and the user assumes all risks involved with installation and modification of their vehicle."

http://www.ctamotorsports.com/

[T.K]

Yes they could but you can't ultimately carve out liability for negligence causing personal injury or death. Might help with on road third party liability as anyone using the parts on the road would be deemed to be negligent so cause of action may as a practical matter be against them not the seller. Good idea.