just another GTTi project

[Harri]

I´ve finally decided it was time to write my own project thread.

I have a phase 1.5 GTT in a prima shell. Phase 1.5 has basicly parts from both phase 1 and 2. Fe the sump is a phase 1 type but carb and associated piping is phase2. It has been nice to buy parts since you usually can´t be sure which one is it.

ENGINE&POWERTRAIN, past

I did the full engine overhaul 2 years ago. I Did some basic head work and fitted CatCams 265 cam too because head flow charts I got "before" and "after" didn´t show any point in choosing wilder cams. When I got the car running again, the plan was to keep it quite standard and in everyday use.

"upgrading" started with FMIC. Soon I notice that the cooling of the car wasn´t sufficient. Mocal cooler and clio16v rad was fitted.

Hunger for parts got worse, so I had to replace my standard exhaust manifold with my DIY equal volume stainless manifold. It seemed to improve boost rise but I have no power charts to support this.

After making the manifold I bought a T25 from 200SX. Scoff sold me 0.49 exhaust housing to improve the lagginess of the turbo. T25 needed bigger and better downpipe, so I installed DIY onepiece downpipe. (I´ll add picture later).

When choosing to upgrade my turbo I also decided to convert the 5 into EFI. Scoff helped me choosing the right sensors and also made me superior "plug-in" loom for the adaptronic I purchased.

I made the first intake manifold with manual milling machines. It had some leaking issues which required a lot of work. Also the runners seemed to be too short, and the plenum has problems flow-wise. Still, in the end it worked quite well. I managed to get 2 powercharts before breaking my gearbox. First one was only upto 4000rpm with decent boost, and the second one was to make MOT guys happy (a chart with just under 20% power rise). Week after mot I broke my gearbox, and while waiting for new I decided to make a second, far improved, intake manifold.

INTAKE V2.

I decided to re-use the throttle body and those 431 injectors I had. Everything else basicly changed. The runners are longer now, injectors mountings are in the runners. Plenum has improved design also removing the difficult bend just before throttle body. Fuel rail is stainless now, with fever connections that could leak. Most of the parts are milled with cnc to ease the assembly process. I'm planning to anodize (without color) the manifold to improve finishing quality and add chemical resistance.

More pictures here: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=816

FUELING&IGNITION

At the moment the car is running standard fuel. The second intake manifold and fuel piping has been made to accept also E85 fuel. I´m planning to buy the zeitronix E85 analyzer kit and take the signal into the adaptronic to change fueling and ignition timing. Connecting a WB and knock sensors to the car will make it full "flexi-fuel" spec.

The Ethanol content sensor however costs a fortune and therefore the plan is to first map the car run on both fuels separately and compare the gains. If there aren´t enough, I won´t proceed with this. The adaptonic doesn´t currently have a function to directly accept this flexi-fuel adaptivity, but I´m planning to use my intake-temp sensor channel to adjust the fueling and timing.

SUSPENSION

Nothing special really. Spax suspension kit, clio16v brakes, momo 15x7 rims.


INTERIOR

Sparco seats, carbon door cards. Most of the interior removed. I will install a roll cage as soon as I have time and can afford it.

I´ll add updates to this thread whenever something interesting happends.

CARBON FIBER BODYWORK PROGRESS (20.9.2013)

I'll try to update this list as often as something happens.

PART NAME, MOULD DONE, CF PART, WEIGHT
Front bumper, done, 2273g wo trimming & mesh & fixings, 70% weight saving
Rear bumper, done, 1570g wo fixings
Hood, done, done, 2050g+inner structure 700g?
Front grill, done, done, 265g
Front arch LH, done, done, ?
Front arch RH, done, done, 690g
Door LH outer skin, done, done, 1640 g
Door LH inner skin, done, done, 1765 g
Door LH window rails, done, done, xx g
Door RH outer skin, done, done, 1700g w/o trimming
Door RH inner skin, done, done, 1645g w/o trimming
Door RH window rails, done, done, xx g
side skirt LH, done, done, 540g w/o fixings
side skirt RH, done, done, ?g w/o fixings
Rear arch LH, done, done, 220g w/o fixings.
Rear arch RH, done, done, 180g w/o fixings (I'll have to rescale this)
Tailgate lockpanel, done, done, 471g
Under light trim LH done, done, -70%
Under light trim RH done, done, -70%
light trim LH done done, -200g
light trim RH done done, -200g
Renault5 emblem, done, done, 20g
GTturbo emblem, done, done, 11g
Tailgate final weight with fittings and adhesives 940g+934g+xx
Door LH final weight with window fittings and adhesives 3450g
Roof, done,
Mirrors,
center console

[jesus in the seat of a 5]

Bloody good work harri , im sure some of us could use your fabrication skills on here , good job on the manifold that is ace...., maybe some links to where you have purchased stuff from also may be usefull?...if i havent missed them.., keep up the bloddy good work...

[Harri]

Here are the torque charts I measured last summer. Blue one is the one for MOT and purple is the one which I did first with correctly adjusted actuator.

[Woznaldo]

Bloody good work harri , im sure some of us could use your fabrication skills on here , good job on the manifold that is ace...., maybe some links to where you have purchased stuff from also may be usefull?...if i havent missed them.., keep up the bloddy good work...

On the same note, where is that throttle body from and what size are the butterflies?

[Os8472]

On the same note, where is that throttle body from and what size are the butterflies?

Looks like a clio valver throttle body to me

[Harri]

yes, it's the F7P throttle body from valver clio. Idle has been working decently without any idle control valve. Smaller butterfly´s diameter is ~35mm and larger ~50mm

[Woznaldo]

The reason I ask is that it looks like it might bolt straight up to my Alliance plenum? Could you grab the mounting bolt spacings so I check please?

[Harri]

Attached picture should give you required dimensions. If you want to use the throttle body with boost application, a good way to make it work is modifying it to accept and seal silicone pipe the same way I did.

units are in mm.

[tonesGTT]

Wow. Really top stuff

[Rob@Backyardracing]

Good build good mani design too.....

[Harri]

Bloody good work harri , im sure some of us could use your fabrication skills on here , good job on the manifold that is ace...., maybe some links to where you have purchased stuff from also may be usefull?...if i havent missed them.., keep up the bloddy good work...

Thanks. What stuff do you mean exactly? Intake manifold parts, or in general?

[Woznaldo]

Thanks for the measurements Harri,

I'll let you know if they are the same.

[Woznaldo]

Thanks for the measurements Harri,

I'll let you know if they are the same.

Good old Renault, they do appear to be the same using my steel ruler! That will definitely be a better option than the 32mm/22mm throttle body that I've already got.

[Harri]

Good old Renault, they do appear to be the same using my steel ruler! That will definitely be a better option than the 32mm/22mm throttle body that I've already got.

I know, sometimes Renault surprises me positively too. Usually it's more or less negatively.

[Harri]

Good old Renault, they do appear to be the same using my steel ruler! That will definitely be a better option than the 32mm/22mm throttle body that I've already got.

I machined two sets of everything for my intake manifold. So if you require 10mm thick alloy flange to suit that F7P throttle body I can sell and post it propably cheaper than cutting or milling one yourself.

[allanr5gtt]

interesting thread good to see another efi cj1 in the club.

[midge]

what is the size off the hose your are using on the throttle body?
have you got the hose to seal properly onit? have you jsut used a jubilie clip onit?

[Harri]

It's ID is 80mm if I remember correcly. I just took some material off from the original attachment so it could seal hose properly.

https://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php...ictureid=10314 shows the modified throttle body.

After installing the hose with two hose clips I did pressure test on the whole system just to be sure. Newer had any problems with this connection.

[Harri]

Small update; I finally had chance to try and see how well the new manifold fits. As expected I needed to cut corner of the plenum to allow at least 10mm spacing between firewall and manifold. At the moment I can't check how well intake and exhaust fit together since intake flange still has extra supports to allow easy attachment to milling machine. I noticed that exhaust manifold had small leakage between flange and head so I need to sort that out aswell.

Next I need to weld brackets for the fuel rail and do fuel leakage test.

[Andrew Cooke]

nice project

it looks like you have the suspension top mounts on the wrong side of the car

[Harri]

Again, small update:
I got the fuel rail and it's mountings complete and decided it was time to check the fuel system for leaks. It seems to hold at least 3 bars of fuel pressure.

I also welded the final welds of the runner part. Next thing to do is machine the head-flange planar. I'm hoping that welding the plenum part into the runner part won't do any harm to the planar head-flange.

[Os8472]

Looking good, what size injectors are you using?

[Harri]

Looking good, what size injectors are you using?

they are 431 bosch ones, If I remember corretly, 360cc.

[Harri]

Work has been crazy last couple of months, but here is finally a small update

I machined new manifold mounting surface planar. After that I trial fitted it with exhaust manifold and welded the plenum part inplace. Next I have to finalise all weldings, make bracket for throttle cable and anodize the whole thing. After that the intake manifold is ready.

I ordered ceramic coating for the exhaust manifold, so I won't have to fit the exhaust wrap again.

Since I had leakage problems with first intake manifold, I decided to also remove the head for two reasons: 1) have the mounting surface sanded planar (if there are minor scratches as I suspect) 2) install both manifolds and check that they both seal properly before installing the head

[Woznaldo]

Nice work Harri, it's coming along nicely!

[Harri]

Final assembly; intake manifold is ready and exhaust manifold has had ceramic coating. I didn't have time to anodize the intake manifold yet, but I'll do that before trying the E85 fuel.

I still need to install coated downpipe, AEM wb kit and some other bits before trying to start the car again.

[R5TURBORON]

good work. the throttle bodie is off a F7P from a renault 19 as the inlet connection is different from the clio one

[Harri]

good work. the throttle bodie is off a F7P from a renault 19 as the inlet connection is different from the clio one

throttle body is from clio16v, but it has been modified to accept silicone hose

[Harri]

Yesterday I got rest of the parts installed, did leakage test on the system and started the engine. It seems to idle quite nicely with the old maps.

I still need to sort the AEM wb kit (I currently have 14point7 kit installed but it won't give output to adaptronic) out and after that it's dyno time again.

[c7borg]

Hunger for parts got worse, so I had to replace my standard exhaust manifold with my DIY equal volume stainless manifold. It seemed to improve boost rise but I have no power charts to support this.

Really impressed with the project, I love DIY builds.. it looks like you used some sort of computer program to work out the manifold, do you have any pics of it progress and how you welded it up? It always seems so difficult when there are so many welds that are so hard to reach!

[Harri]

Really impressed with the project, I love DIY builds.. it looks like you used some sort of computer program to work out the manifold, do you have any pics of it progress and how you welded it up? It always seems so difficult when there are so many welds that are so hard to reach!

I used Catia for modelling both manifolds. Progress for welding the tubing was quite similar in both manifolds. First I cut all straight and angled tube parts. Then welded one straight and one angled part as pairs. This I did to all the parts. After that I checked measures from center lines of both parts and assembled the tubing similarly. Basicly I first welded all the tubings separately and after that did the assembly.

Assembly of the intake manifold consisted two main parts; the plenum and the runner. You can see the runner part in some pictures here, it was designed to allow easy welding. That was one of the main improvements in this second manifold design I did.

[Harri]

Small update, today I installed knock sensor and modified adaptronic wiring to accept the ethanol content sensor. Knock sensor at least senses backround noises, it will be interesting to see how well it works when on dyno.

I also cut rear side panels from carbon sheet. After getting the efi gasoline setup complete, I'll order rollcage. Any recommedations for rollcage?

Next I'll try the car with old map and hope to pass the mot.

[Woznaldo]

What model optima red top battery are you using and where are you tapping the manifold for the brake servo and crankcase vetilation?

[Harri]

What model optima red top battery are you using and where are you tapping the manifold for the brake servo and crankcase vetilation?

I'll check the optima model next time I see my car. The brake servo connection is in the plenum behind the manifold close to original place. Crankcase ventilation is at the moment routed only to oil catch tank (see the picture). I'm still not sure if I want to connect the oil catch tank to the telephone hose.

[Woznaldo]

[Harri]

Good and bad news, I was on the dyno Wednesday to map the car.

Everything went well first and I could really feel and see improvement in low-mid rpm torque. I got 106bhp at 4000rpm from the engine while doing basic mapping. EVO1 intake manifold was designed to work at high rpm (and didn't flow as good anyway) and only gave me 68bph at same boost and rpm and I didn't even got a change to optimize ignition advance at 4000rpm.. I didn't have change to map the rest since the car started to smoke smelling like burnt oil.

I did quick compression test and it was fine. So that leaves me basicly valveguides&seals or turbo.

I took the head off since the guides weren't replaced two years ago when I rebuilt the engine. The intake guides had leaked but I still doubt that they could leak that much since the car smoked even at idle. The head is now waiting for k-line guides to be fitted at motorworkshop. I'll get it back in the middle of next week. It will be interesting to see if the burnt oil problem was at the guides

Anyway, I might need to start either rebuilding my T25 or buying new turbo, a T28 perhaps? My T25 is a 200SX one with 0.49 exhaust housing. What would be suitable replacement, I want something that can give me 19-20psi without fear of breaking the turbo, also I want to avoid lag as much as possible.

[Harri]

Forgot, the boost was 0,8bar at both runs (new and old)

[Andrew Cooke]

sounds like turbo, if you remove it you will probably see that the exhaust side is oily and the manifold side dry.

Your turbo sounds about the right size to me.

[Harri]

I'm thinking it's the turbo too but decided to replace the guides first as they are cheaper and I knew that they were worn.

The inlet side of the turbo is perfectly dry, I haven't opened the exhaust side yet. There is some side play in the shaft but not in the axial direction.

[Andrew Cooke]

I'm thinking it's the turbo too but decided to replace the guides first as they are cheaper and I knew that they were worn.

The inlet side of the turbo is perfectly dry, I haven't opened the exhaust side yet. There is some side play in the shaft but not in the axial direction.

it'll be the exhaust side that's wet, may as well pop it off now...

[Harri]

I'll take a look on Sunday when I'll go and work with the car again.

[Harri]

it'll be the exhaust side that's wet, may as well pop it off now...

Right you were. I took the turbo of and it had huge amount of axial play. So next I need a new one or rebuild.

[Harri]

What model optima red top battery are you using and where are you tapping the manifold for the brake servo and crankcase vetilation?

There's part number on picture, hope that helps.

[Harri]

Right you were. I took the turbo of and it had huge amount of axial play. So next I need a new one or rebuild.

All right, I have three offers for new turbo so far

-T25 with 0.49 turbine housing (same which I had) £600+vat
-TD04 with about same specs as t25 above but this has 360deg bearing. £600+vat
-GT2854R with 0.49 turbine housing. £895+vat

I don't like the idea of buying another T25 with std bearings. TD04 needs some mods on downpipe flange at least. GT2854R is most expensive but with 0.49 turbine housing I think it could work more reliable and a bit less laggier than T25?

What do you think?

[Andrew Cooke]

have you had a price to rebuild your existing turbo?

[Harri]

have you had a price to rebuild your existing turbo?

I was told that with as much axial play as I had it would have propably been as much as new T25.

[Andrew Cooke]

do you have on old turbo to run for a bit? I'd say go for the roller, but if your turbo died because of oil contamination, or lack of oil supply it'll be an expensive thing to break.

[Harri]

do you have on old turbo to run for a bit? I'd say go for the roller, but if your turbo died because of oil contamination, or lack of oil supply it'll be an expensive thing to break.

Unfortunately I don't have any old turbos lying around anymore.. I had the T25 for year and half and have no knowledge on history of the unit before that. I was told it had been serviced when I bought it. It had all the plastic plugs in place which new/serviced units usually have so I believed it. But I can't be sure about the quality of the service work or about the condition the turbo was in before service.

I have a braided oil feed and quite std oil return. The oil return flange is different in T25 so I installed 45deg connector. In my understanding the oil return should work better than std since hose from original system had to make too tight bent just under the turbo.

Oil was fresh, I changed it just the day before going to dyno. I use Valvoline 20W 50 and I drove 50 miles before dyno with the new oil. It might still have some crap in it so I think I'll add inline filter anyway.

The original oil pressure sensor is in the turbo oil feed pipe, so the feed side should be okay if the readings are good, right? I can remove the oil return pipe from the sump and check that there's oil coming through nicely during start of the engine (without starting the car).

[Harri]

Small updates;

I installed new spal fan today. I made the brackets out of leftover carbon sheet. It seems to work a lot better than the old fan.

I installed cgb-motorsport style gauge holder plate out of the same leftover carbon sheet. I currently have afr and boost there. Still trying to figure out what will be the third gauge.

[Harri]

More updates;

I bought the GT2854R with 0.49a/r exhaust housing from turbo dynamics.

I added flange for idle control valve to inlet manifold and then anodized the manifold to add chemical protection.. anodizing cost me only 20€ + 10 minutes of chitchat

tomorrow Ill start assembly once again