The Start of a mk1 Clio 225 Hybrid

[andyrg]

Hi guys.

On the way to my Clio Turbo Conversion

The Car started life as a 1.8 16v Clio and very good fun it was at that,

The Car then had a stock Clio 172 F4R Lump fitted running Standard Ecu

The Car then had a Stock Engine with ITBS and Omex 600

The Car then Had a fully built steel engine with cams, all sorts and the ITBS and Omex 600

The Car now will live with a F4rT Head Onto a F4R Block, running the F4rT Pistons and Rods, Along side a few other nice extras.

The Reason for putting the Head onto the F4R Block is the Gearbox on the Turbo Block is designed for a 6 speed box with some work it will fit the 5 speed, But from what i have been told its a long hard and expensive task, After doing home work i am confident that the combernation of the two engines will work and work well,

Id decided to get a nice ECU from Scoff and thats shoudl be here this week With some luck.

Ive had Steve come throught tonight with a nice F4r Block Rocking!!! Cheers boss i really appreciate that.

I am still very undercided what TURBO too use, looking for a Manifold that will make me be able to runa GT series turbo as i feel the 225 turbo could be too small and have too use more boost too create the power level i want,

Updates will be posted and with photos.

Cheers

[Matt Cole]

Hello matey,

Are you planning on using the f4r cams?

[Ashy]

You had a full steel F4R engine, but you've swapped all the bits for F4RT internals?

If so what have you done with the Steel rods you took out of the F4R?

Be interested to see the inside of the F4RT, pics of rods against std and steel F4R rods would be interesting.

I wouldn't be too worried about the gearbox mounting issue of the F4RT tbh as you'll probably need to do the Scoff VAG box conversion at some point

[Scoff]

Hi andy, good to talk to you today. a genuine enthusiast, which are getting rare!

What ashy say's above is fair comment, the standard 5 speed doesn't deal with a lot of torque all that well, so that might be another reason to find yourself a bigger (less torque-spike prone) turbo. Mapping the boost to remove unwanted spikes in the torque curve should help too.

[SP33DY]

Hello matey,

Are you planning on using the f4r cams?

No sticking with the F4RT cams that are in the cylinder head as they don't have the ball ache of VVT and have been proven to flow enough for 300bhp on Paul at RStunings R26R.

[Matt Cole]

No sticking with the F4RT cams that are in the cylinder head as they don't have the ball ache of VVT and have been proven to flow enough for 300bhp on Paul at RStunings R26R.

I think a benefit would be seen with more boost/larger turbo, disabling the VVT and run the F4r cams.

[SP33DY]

Hi andy, good to talk to you today. a genuine enthusiast, which are getting rare!

What ashy say's above is fair comment, the standard 5 speed doesn't deal with a lot of torque all that well, so that might be another reason to find yourself a bigger (less torque-spike prone) turbo. Mapping the boost to remove unwanted spikes in the torque curve should help too.

The manifolds are interchangeable through out the F4R range and the log manifolds you can get from Ktec or BBPT will bolt straight on. this has the bous of (if you buy a ktec down pipe) matching straight up to the current exhaust system rather than retaining the stock 225 setup and having to have a custom exhaust.

I think a GT28R with a ar.60 comp and 64 turbine would really suit the engine and flow 300bhp

[SP33DY]

I think a benefit would be seen with more boost/larger turbo, disabling the VVT and run the F4r cams.

The problem is Andy wants to use it as a track car and doesn't really want mega power otherwise he'll be swapping gearboxes every weekend. sticking with the stock F4RT cams (no VVT) and a free'r flowing turbo (to help with top end) should be the best combination. Obviously it's going to be trial and error but something like a GT28R with a .60 comp and a .64 back end should give good results without having to run mega boost.

The other thing is the compression ratio of the F4RT it's not as low as the wossners I have in mine so he shouldn't have to run as much boost to get good reliable figures (remeber RStuning stage 2's are putting 20psi into these engines without trouble) Ashy's is a prime example, his compression ratio isn't as low as mine and he was putting 3/4psi less into his engine to hit within .7bhp of mine.

[andyrg]

Thanks for the replys lads.

The turbo and the manifold is last on the list but i am happy to try try try and then fix fix fix!!!

i know the Jc5 are not the best but i will see what happens. I dont want 300Bhp! 240ish will be very good too much power can spoil a car, and since were using her for track days/1/4s its importance too do both

[SP33DY]

You'll piss 240bhp with a stock 225 turbo however they do produce really strong torque figures and thats whats will destroy your gearbox.

[Matt Cole]

You'll piss 240bhp with a stock 225 turbo however they do produce really strong torque figures and thats whats will destroy your gearbox.

He could swap to the JB3 as they seem to hold up a little better than the JC5 ala stu clarke and plenty high powered 5's. Infact is the 172 box that bad as it seems pretty durable too as tested brutally by scoff and Ashy hasnt replaced his yet (touching wood)

As for low down torque ,makes for an awesome road car though!

[SP33DY]

He could swap to the JB3 as they seem to hold up a little better than the JC5 ala stu clarke and plenty high powered 5's. Infact the 172 box seems pretty durable too as tested brutally by scoff and Ashy hasnt replaced his yet (touching wood)

As for low torque ,makes an awesome road car though!

He's already got a JC5 128 gearbox the same as whats in mine. Its a dci box with much better ratios that gives a usefull overdrive 5th.

I agree that torque does make it a much more flexible road car but as it's his track toy something thats going to give a strong top end will be best.

[Ashy]

as it's his track toy something thats going to give a strong top end will be best.

guess it depends on the track but I would of thought low down torque and a responsive blower would be best, when you are on and off throttle regularly... the stock 225 twin scroll would be ideal for this... Ask Mat, starts boosting at 2000rpm or something daft

[SP33DY]

To be honest nothing is set in stone.

Andy has a F4RT engine and a F4R block so we were just looking to make the most of what we had.

His car used to have an F4R fitted so it seemd logical to try and retain as much F4R as possible for ease of fitting.

There are some good points being raised in the other thread about the flow capacities of the F4RT cams as well as the inlet manifold.

It could be worth sourcing a f4r head and using that?

[SP33DY]

An initial problem we can see.

On the f4rt engine the cam belt runs round the crank, round the water pump then round the cam pulleys and finally the tensioner.

On the F4r it doesnt have a water pump (on the cam belt) and has a pulley instead.

This pulley is drilled and tapped into the cylinder head so, to use the F4RT head it need to be drilled and tapped to accept this pulley.

[Matt Cole]

To be honest nothing is set in stone.

Andy has a F4RT engine and a F4R block so we were just looking to make the most of what we had.

His car used to have an F4R fitted so it seemd logical to try and retain as much F4R as possible for ease of fitting.

There are some good points being raised in the other thread about the flow capacities of the F4RT cams as well as the inlet manifold.

It could be worth sourcing a f4r head and using that?

Yeah matey it all depends on what variation/limit Andy wants to take the car too. The 225 lump with its turbo cams and the twin scroll at moderate boost will be pretty good for 250bhp ish, would be good on most tracks (responsive). More boost/power then the F4R cams, bigger turbo etc. In fact just the f4r lump with compression mods/injectors etc should do it.

[SP33DY]

I've just text Andy to see if he wants to use a full F4R engine but with the F4RT pistons and rods.

I figure by using the full f4r it will cut down on the parts needing machining, as the F4RT head will need the cylinder head drilling and tapping for the cam pulley as well as needing some form of fabrication for an adaptor to get a cable throttle body to fit the inlet manifold.

Obviously by going to this he won't be able to use the stock turbo arrangement which will put the costs up.

I suppose it'll come down to how much money he want to throw at it.

[Matt Cole]

Theres no easy route tbh matey as both variations require more than 'bolt on' parts. If i were to do this again, then it would be using the F4R lump and turbo that, as at least you can drop it in with not too much effort and work on the turboing parts of the conversion.

[SP33DY]

Theres no easy route tbh matey as both variations require more than 'bolt on' parts. If i were to do this again, then it would be using the F4R lump and turbo that, as at least you can drop it in with not too much effort and work on the turboing parts of the conversion.

Cost wise I still think the F4RT/F4R hybrid would be the cheapest as he already has the F4RT engine complete and an F4R block. Also if he uses the stock turbo set up as he has that the manifold and the intermediate exhaust pipe. Apart from the cable throttle body and the drilling and tapping it should be plain sailing. if he can find a small enough cable body he can just use narrow bore intercooler pipework around the engine bay to make things easier.

If he wants to use a full F4R engine he'll have to use the pistons and rods from the F4RT (which means he won't recoup much money from that when he sells it on). He'll also need a F4R head, turbo manifold, ktec down pipe, turbo, cable body and a few otheer bits. So in theory it's likey to cost more quite a bit more.

[andyrg]

I have decided on a few things today, the major factor of this too trial and error, i am wanting to be able to have a reliable car that will get used about 10 times a year, but dont wish to throw £1000's into it as i have a baby on the way and a wife that likes gooch

I am going this route


F4R Block
F4rT Pistons, Rods and Crank
F4RT Head, drilled and tapped to suit
Volvo turbo Throttle Bodie, with a adaptor plate for the inlet.
I am going to keep the orininal twin scroll turbo and go with a T14
Custom downpipe from AAS at newburn.
Apt ECU from Scoff.

I think this can all be done with in Budget of say £1500.

[SP33DY]

Mate how much have they qouted you for the down pipe? as ktecs is £186 and I'm sure you could wangle a bit of discount if you spoke to Sean? or I could give him a ring as he's spot on with me.

I've been thinking about the exhaust, the fact that there are so many engines shared between the clios and meganes and they all route the same I think you might be able to get away with the stock arrangement.

How about you leave it till last then fit the cat and that intermediate pipe I brought round last night and see how far out it is if any?

[andyrg]

yer mate well do that

need to get it all togerher first ordered head gasket and belt kit today collect this afternoon and seals from renault

[Spooky]

Come on, get cracking, I wanna see results

[Ashy]

ordered head gasket and belt kit today collect this afternoon and seals from renault

Ouch, bet that stung!!

I remember when i did that a set of head bolts cost me £56.00

[SP33DY]

engine dynamics seem quite cheap for bits

http://www.engine-dynamics.com/epage...3555136&Page=2

[andyrg]

Just got a British Gasket for £32 and a set of British Gasket Bolts for £29 .... The joys of having a Trade account with Pages, Speedos and Halfords


Just sorting a few bits out this week but the heads will be going to get drilled on wednesday

[SP33DY]

No mucking about, you got the head off yet Andy?

And are you going to take both heads so they can see exactly where it goes?

Realistically the way the tensioner works it could be a couple of mm out and you'd still be able to tension it ok.

[andyrg]

No mucking about, you got the head off yet Andy?

And are you going to take both heads so they can see exactly where it goes?

Realistically the way the tensioner works it could be a couple of mm out and you'd still be able to tension it ok.

Will take it off tommorrow and measure it all my self with the gauages, micromitors etc and then get the place who will drill it for me to double check, will take both heads.

Ordered the pully from Renault today too Happy Days

[Ricardo]

Really looking forward to seeing how this project progresses, can't wait to see pics as it get's involved

[Gaz2405]

Did you get an NDO gearbox with the engine or not, if your not using it they go for quite good money on ebay.

[i l k e r]

great project

albeit the power handling properties of the J series gearbox it will make the whole process much easier for you, they're massive and a pain to get spares for

I'm still stuck just because of a bloody driveshaft, I hate living abroad

[SP33DY]

Gaz it was just the engine no gear box.

ILKER that was one of the reasons that it was decided to use a F4R block as Andy had all ready had one fitted so we knew everything would line up without any problems, they both share exactly bore and stroke so it looks relatively straight forward getting it together.

Another thing we'll be able to retain is the over the head intercooler pipe which should make the pipe routing a fair bit easier.

Anyone have a 225 turbo they want rid of?

[Ashy]

Anyone have a 225 turbo they want rid of?

Mats got a smokey one!

[Gaz2405]

I've got the cold end of a td04 10t the one from the laguna turbo if you get desperate.

[andyrg]

I've got the cold end of a td04 10t the one from the laguna turbo if you get desperate.

i have a 10t turbo need a bigger baby,


Ohh getting along nice just ha d a delivary from renualt

[andyrg]

Hi Guys.


Little update not much going on at the minuate awaiting for parts etc.

Collected my Rings from renualt, thought when i was on even the the engien is a genuine 6k unit i would replace all rings and shells

Steve come through on thursday night but we could not do much due to the electric going off, so he stood there looking good and then buggered off home again
hahaha

few pix of bits for some viewing nothing exciting, Heads away getting machined.

[SP33DY]

Another quick update, I'm in Leeds today and have picked up a 225 meg turbo for the project. I'll be dropping it off tomorrow for Andy and all going well with the machinist the engine could be back in the car next week.

Looking at the pics it looks as though those cams would drop straight in a F4R, which has got me thinking about swapping mine out for them.

Obviously we know the F4R N/A cams will flow 400bhp+ as this has been proven (by Scoff) but I wonder if the turbo cams would be more suited to a road car maybe giving better mid range? and still flowing 300+ the cosequences could be more torque which might give the gearbox a hard time.

[andyrg]

cheers stevo!!!!!! wahoo what a bargin too

god my garage loosk so messy in that how photos can lie

[SP33DY]

Just aswell you took those photos after you'd tidied up LOL

What was it you said mid week "Steve, next time you set foot in here it'll be immaculate"

Wheres that pinochio smiley gone?

[Ashy]

cheers stevo!!!!!! wahoo what a bargin too

What did you go for in the end?

[SP33DY]

Just the stock meg 225 tdo4, if more power is required in the future Andy can get the hybrid kit for it which should take it to 300+

[andyrg]

now steven, was it tidy today?????


just a 225 megane turbo i only want 250 area for the track so i think any thing else will be pointless at this stage

[SP33DY]

I'll give you that, it was actually tidy for once. Lets see how long it lasts LOL

How did Si get on with his evo? Is he still furious?

[andyrg]

Well Good Progress.

New Rings Installed
New Bearings sorted, well in business

Heads Back on and Torqued and a Mockup of the bet is also done too make sure it all still fits

Had the head machined as the Fr4T block does not run two idlers as it runs the water pump on its own

Here are a few pixs



Removing the Crank from the bigger block



The mess!!!!



The Head after being marked and drilled



Idler installed


Rings being installed




Pistons being dropped back in




Crank and bearnings installed



New oil pump fitted




Short motor Finished



The belt mock up

[Scoff]

good work andy

did you get any detailed pictures of the 225 rods and pistons ?

[andyrg]

good work andy

did you get any detailed pictures of the 225 rods and pistons ?

after i put the head on i remembers i forgot to put a f4r and a turbo rod together... i am stupidddddddddddddddddddddd..




i May have to remove the head tommorrow as i am not confident that its right.....

I torqued in sequance.


20nm

then

20nm


then 100degrees


then 100 degrees


but then i got to the end ones they were loose after i had done 100 in 1 2 3 4 5 6 ....

Is that how its ment too be, ive never noticed it like that before...

[Scoff]

ahh, shame. I was eager to compare them. did they look or feel any more substantial than the 172 rods ? don't go taking the head off on my account

re bolt tightening, I'm a bit old-skool, I don't bother with the angles, I just torque them up to 80ft/lb and walk away. I don't use stretch bolts though. I have a PDF copy of the f4r tech manual if you would like a copy ?

[andyrg]

I have a copy already thanks Scoff. But it says it in a very strange measurment

[Scoff]

da Nm you mean ? multiply that by 10 and you have Nm, but it sounds like you've done that already. I'd have to re-read the manual to get to grips with it again.

[andyrg]

Is Auto Data tellign me fibs

20nm
20nm
100degrees
100 degrees


renault say

20Nb

then 165degrees...


I think ill start again tommorrow, as i get a headgasket with the full seal kit