C1J problem - Any advice's welcome

[James5]

Sorry to pester you all but I want to tap the extensive knowledge / experience of the RTOC members.

I have had a little problem with my little C1J recently which i thought was down to head gasket failure. So I removed the head checked the head for flatness and all was good with the head. I then checked the H/G all apeared ok apart from what looks like a water way on number 2 cylinder part of the gasket has gone this then co-incided with number 2 cylinder nearest flywheel looking like it had been steam cleaned. I visual checked the liners and all apeared ok no visual cracks i could see and hone marks looking good. So assuming it was H/G failure I plonked the head back on with a new H/G and new bolts. To find that I have obviously not sorted my problem out as it still remains.

The problem - The car smokes white with a little blue out of the exhaust which is obviously coolant and oil burning off I took the car for a very short drive as it was a cold morning, things didn't improve so I then got the car back home. Car didn't overheat whilst doing this and never did when the original headgasket was on the rad fan kicked in at the normal time aswell.
There is defo a loss of coolant aswell. The car also sounds and feels like it is running on 3 cylinders I am now thinking maybe a liner has gone and I am currently getting the bits together (cheers JRP) to replace the liner or liners that are at fault I am also going to do a compression test (Cheers Dave..H) to see which one or two or all are down before I remove anything.

What are you thoughts and advices?

(Pic attached is the only pick I have of the block with the head of when I originally took it off, i have some H/G pics at home also which i will upload tomoz).

[stuTHC]

Your thinking along the correct lines by doing a comp' test. It could be a number of things causing it. Head gasket not lined up correctly or damaged during fitting. Cracked liner, liner protrusion too low, warped head, cracked waterway..........it does take some time to clear all the old water and oil out an exhaust thou, but if your still losing water with no leaks then it looks like the heads coming back off. Comp test first thou, so you know where to look when it's off

[stuTHC]

If it is a cracked liner you usually pressurise the coolant system and either blow a hose off or blow the centre of the expansion tank cap off. Do the coolant hoses go rock hard when the engine is running?

[Spooky]

Should've kept the F4R

[James5]

If it is a cracked liner you usually pressurise the coolant system and either blow a hose off or blow the centre of the expansion tank cap off. Do the coolant hoses go rock hard when the engine is running?

Many thanks for the advices - The coolant system does go down and I am definatly loosing some coolant but when you undo the expanasion tank cap the coolant will come back up a bit. I will check the hoses tonight to see if they get hard as i did'nt check that.

[James5]

Should've kept the F4R

Cheers for the useful advice Spooky i do get that thought quite often although not as much as the sell up and buy an Evo thought.

[BriC]

i do get that thought quite often

Why does that not surprise me?

[James5]

Why does that not surprise me?

I don't know what your talking about

[BriC]

I can see into the future btw.. I'll prove it by saying what you're going to do within the next year:

Put the 5 up for sale because you want something else

Take the 5 off sale

Put a new engine in the 5

Put the 5 back up for sale

Take the 5 off sale

Think about breaking the 5

Don't break it

Put a new engine in the 5

[Spooky]

Cheers for the useful advice Spooky i do get that thought quite often although not as much as the sell up and buy an Evo thought.

You buy an Evo after what you've put that car through, I will visit you in the night......

[James5]

You buy an Evo after what you've put that car through, I will visit you in the night......

[James5]

Couple of Headgasket pics (Original H/G that was fitted), I have taken close up pics of cylinder 2 as it has some denting around the ring (hmm is it Det).

I will hopefully get some compression test results tonight if JRP is able to come over with the compression tester

[rs250nut]

When I have killed gaskets due to det they look similar to that, normally the firing ring goes oval and you get a little dent and a break in the gasket leading to one of the water ways. On your pic to the extreme right at 10-11 o clock is where mine have gone in the past.

[James5]

When I have killed gaskets due to det they look similar to that, normally the firing ring goes oval and you get a little dent and a break in the gasket leading to one of the water ways. On your pic to the extreme right at 10-11 o clock is where mine have gone in the past.

TDC wires will be swapped back to OE position, in an attempt to prevent this will also looking at fueling and Cooling. Still though I need to do a compression test to identify which liner or Liner's have gone hope it's not a cracked head at the end of all this

[Spooky]

James, I ran 18lbs with the wire swap with good fuelling before detting occurred, itll be different with every engine but that threshold is critical otherwise you'll be mullering gaskets/liners all day long.

I did the wire swap and advanced the ignition at the flywheel...gave approx 7deg more and ran at no more than 1 bar too, went well.

Or you could leave the ign and fuel for 20lbs like I have.

I think after the ignition has been modified you will need to look at ways of controlling detonation...possibly water injection for example.

[James5]

James, I ran 18lbs with the wire swap with good fuelling before detting occurred, itll be different with every engine but that threshold is critical otherwise you'll be mullering gaskets/liners all day long.

I did the wire swap and advanced the ignition at the flywheel...gave approx 7deg more and ran at no more than 1 bar too, went well.

Or you could leave the ign and fuel for 20lbs like I have.

I think after the ignition has been modified you will need to look at ways of controlling detonation...possibly water injection for example.

You never showed last night I waited


I am only running 1bar manifold on the little T2 which according to the carb top gauge is about 18psi top (obviously loosing some psi through the carb).

I think the fueling needs to be adjusted a little more as I am obivously running to lean on boost 12.4-12.5 @ WOT in 4th. I will run it a little richer to keep it in the high 11's.

So who thinks it is a liner?? or a cracked cylinder head??
Comp test will be done friday once results obtained I will post them up for advices.

Many thanks all.

[James5]

Just done a cold compression test with throttle wide open results as follows

cylinder 1 - 130psi
cylinder 2 - 110psi
cylinder 3 - 100psi
cylinder 4 - 130psi

I will try a compression test over the weekend with some oil in the cylinders to see results.
Also number 2 has got coolant in

[James5]

Obviously number 2 & 3 are were my problem is got some decent liners and got new liner seal also going to get some new rings. Any other thoughts?

[TrixNFlix]

Obviously number 2 & 3 are were my problem is got some decent liners and got new liner seal also going to get some new rings. Any other thoughts?

Well as you've changed the head gasket it's got to be what you've said or you've melted a bit of the piston were the rings seal. I reckon it's liners or rings. My moneys on rings.

[Jimmy_GTT]

Just done a cold compression test with throttle wide open results as follows

cylinder 1 - 130psi
cylinder 2 - 110psi
cylinder 3 - 100psi
cylinder 4 - 130psi

I will try a compression test over the weekend with some oil in the cylinders to see results.
Also number 2 has got coolant in

As I know if you get better results with some oil than it is ring problem.
Do you have a lower compression engine?

[TrixNFlix]

As I know if you get better results with some oil than it is ring problem.
Do you have a lower compression engine?

Yep jimmy, it's a low compression engine.

[Jimmy_GTT]

Yep jimmy, it's a low compression engine.

But it is only lower by the H/G?
Because by the avatar he runs on std. pistons.

[James5]

Yep jimmy, it's a low compression engine.

No this engine is standard basically standard compression with blue seal H/G (i know slightly thicker I have it torqued down to 80nm), the test was done cold I didn't warm the engine up first, I will do a test with oil in the next couple of days.

Fecking C1J maybe I should look into doing a modern 16v engine transplant

[Jimmy_GTT]

Fecking C1J maybe I should look into doing a modern 16v engine transplant

No way man! They are even worse.

My friend has just blown his HG on his Williams. And no turbo on it.


But for me the 130psi is also not enough.
I have recenly measured my friend's GTT. Its engine has been rebuild some months ago. And I have measured 155-165psi.
Engine was cold. All sparks out. WOT.

I do not know if it is because of the thick HG.

How many miles are in this engine?

[James5]

No way man! They are even worse.

My friend has just blown his HG on his Williams. And no turbo on it.


But for me the 130psi is also not enough.
I have recenly measured my friend's GTT. Its engine has been rebuild some months ago. And I have measured 155-165psi.
Engine was cold. All sparks out. WOT.

I do not know if it is because of the thick HG.

How many miles are in this engine?

Hmmm, this engine I think was out of a 75k ph2 GTT but then who knows if it was the original engine in that car! the first thing I did when I got the engine was replace the oil pump with a nice rebuilt kit (done this just to be on the safe side for oil pressure) put new big end bearings (not because they had gone just replaced as I had it apart) and I also replaced the clutch + replaced all gaskets on the engine except for the H/G & liner seals at the time.

As I have to now take the engine apart anyway to sort cylinder 2 & 3 out I will replace the rings on all 4 pistons and I have got 4 x spare GTT liners freshly honed that I can use.

I will do the oil compression test first to see results.

[Jimmy_GTT]

Hmmm, this engine I think was out of a 75k ph2 GTT but then who knows if it was the original engine in that car! the first thing I did when I got the engine was replace the oil pump with a nice rebuilt kit (done this just to be on the safe side for oil pressure) put new big end bearings (not because they had gone just replaced as I had it apart) and I also replaced the clutch + replaced all gaskets on the engine except for the H/G & liner seals at the time.

As I have to now take the engine apart anyway to sort cylinder 2 & 3 out I will replace the rings on all 4 pistons and I have got 4 x spare GTT liners freshly honed that I can use.

I will do the oil compression test first to see results.

Yes, I think that's what you have to do.
But also check the pistons when they are out.

And do not forget that this compression results can be also caused by head problem.
If the valves are not closing perfectly.
Easiest test is to put the head upside down and fill it with petrol. After some minutes you will see if the petrol is flown away at the valves.

[James5]

Yes, I think that's what you have to do.
But also check the pistons when they are out.

And do not forget that this compression results can be also caused by head problem.
If the valves are not closing perfectly.
Easiest test is to put the head upside down and fill it with petrol. After some minutes you will see if the petrol is flown away at the valves.

Many thanks for the advices

[TrixNFlix]

No this engine is standard basically standard compression with blue seal H/G (i know slightly thicker I have it torqued down to 80nm), the test was done cold I didn't warm the engine up first, I will do a test with oil in the next couple of days.

Fecking C1J maybe I should look into doing a modern 16v engine transplant

Sorry to jimmy for telling him the wrong info. I remember a pm from you James saying about an msm engine, low comp? Must of got the wrong end of the stick. What mm is the head 130 psi seems low.

[James5]

Sorry to jimmy for telling him the wrong info. I remember a pm from you James saying about an msm engine, low comp? Must of got the wrong end of the stick. What mm is the head 130 psi seems low.

The head on this engine measures 73.1mm

My last C1J engine was MSM engine number 9 but that was high comp (block was skimmed) (Wish i still had that engine) I do wish I was running a slightly higher comp engine now.

[TrixNFlix]

Sounds about right, wrong end of the stick again.
what does the mellier blue gasket squash down to at 80 nm compared to the oe gasket, anyone know?

[fishead]

you could do a leak test, should give a fairly good idea

[Rob@Backyardracing]

Sounds about right, wrong end of the stick again.
what does the mellier blue gasket squash down to at 80 nm compared to the oe gasket, anyone know?

There both the same material so whatever % the OE will compress to i guess the uprated thicker gasket will compress to the same % on the same material...

[Scoff]

1.6mm vs 1.9mm if memory serves.

[James5]

Engine now apart number 2 liner had a crack in the top section. All pistons and liners removed to discover that this engine in the past must have just been run on water and not coolant as the liners and inside the block have got a horrible bobbly rust effect well over heated. Pistons all look vfine no det marks or cracks all cleaned up and are looking like new now. Just need to clean the inside of the block out and I will put it all back together yet again

[TrixNFlix]

1.6mm vs 1.9mm if memory serves.

Cheers scoff.

James have you got any pics of the cracked liner? Just out of interest.

[James5]

Cheers scoff.

James have you got any pics of the cracked liner? Just out of interest.

yeah will upload tomoz as I am on the itouch at the mo. But you can just about make out a small mark on the 1st picture I posted on the top of liner 2 the side that goes against liner number 1 I thought it was just a mark turns out that is the split you can feel it when you run a finger over it.

[James5]

Couple of pics of the cracked liner (Excuse the orange looking coolant but it is pink halfords stuff)

[Spooky]

Pretty

[TrixNFlix]

yeah will upload tomoz as I am on the itouch at the mo. But you can just about make out a small mark on the 1st picture I posted on the top of liner 2 the side that goes against liner number 1 I thought it was just a mark turns out that is the split you can feel it when you run a finger over it.

Cheers for the pics, that's a fairly easy spot, you must of convinced yourself that it was just a scratch when you did the headgasket.

[James5]

Cheers for the pics, that's a fairly easy spot, you must of convinced yourself that it was just a scratch when you did the headgasket.

so true Andy, I have learn't my lesson now won't be doing that again.

[James5]

Cheers guys for all your help just finished putting it back together just need to pick up some oil and a plastic carb elbow and once primed will be ready to turn the key. Fingers crossed

[James5]

Done another comp test since putting it back together and I have 150 psi across all 4 still sounds like she is runnng on 3 will have a play later to see if I can sort.

[Jimmy_GTT]

Done another comp test since putting it back together and I have 150 psi across all 4 still sounds like she is runnng on 3 will have a play later to see if I can sort.

The comp.test sounds good.
Check all ignition parts. Distributor, sparks, plugs...

[Scoff]

it's worth checking the inlet manifold gasket for leaks too.

[James5]

Ok just had a play with the 5 for the last 30 mins engine sounds nice and tight but still defo running on only 3 and what ever I do makes no difference i have no smoke anymore and no coolant loss I have good spark at all plugs new inlet/ exhaust manifolds.
Any ideas fir me to look at??

[Brigsy]

Valve clearances too tight?

[James5]

Just had a quick thought I did take out the dizzy drive shaft and the dizzy drive gear that slides into the cam that rotates the rota arm did also come out with it I am thinking if I put this back in wrong a tooth or so out could this be causing my running on 3 or rough running due to sparking incorrect order??????

[James5]

Valve clearances too tight?

Triple checked it 25 / 20

[Arrows]

Just had a quick thought I did take out the dizzy drive shaft and the dizzy drive gear that slides into the cam that rotates the rota arm did also come out with it I am thinking if I put this back in wrong a tooth or so out could this be causing my running on 3 or rough running due to sparking incorrect order??????

James,

I would have thought it would run a bit rough and sounding like its on 3 cylinders so it would be worth double checking to be sure.

[James5]

James,

I would have thought it would run a bit rough and sounding like its on 3 cylinders so it would be worth double checking to be sure.

cheers John thought it might be I am such a fecking idiot looks like I need to get the engine to tdc and the set the dizzy gear correctly and hopefully this wil sort it.