SO... where are we upto?

[Adey aka Ewok]

Its not, I've been on here since 1998 and its happened ever since I can remember, regardless of the club being run by a committee or a leader (Rach H) or a Dictator (Bruce) there have always been a small number of very vocal members constantly voicing their opinions which can be seen as trying to undermine the leadership. Its grown worse as the internet has become more accessible. I don't think Miller being more active or another CM stepping into that role would make the slightest bit of difference.

Perhaps its just the way it is and we just need to accept it and move on. This is the best car club I've ever been involved in and I think that's due to the enthusiasm of its members. Unfortunately the love that the members have for their cars and the club sometimes gets misinterpreted and snowballs into situations like this one.

The whole mess is linked to ND being at FCS which clashed with Sangliers and its now snowballed to where we are today.

Threads popping up like this time and time again under different guises don't really help we just end up repeating the same things over and over and everyone gets sick of it.

I was always going to fcs, even tried to big it up to the other members.

If its always been like this ashy isnt it a sign that people want change. Not everyone is vocal so a fair few probably wouldnt speak up, but the same things come up and maybe it is time to re evolve the club yet again. Maybe a simple vote asking if change is needed or should it stay the same. That way a view of what the club want will be seen rather than taking it as a select vocal fews opinion. Im not trying to undermine anyone in authority, i think most people who do or say anything on here are trying to do it for the good of the club. You all do a great job but people are voicing an opinion and it should be taken on board shouldnt it?

[Bigfoot]

The same things come up over and over again, and people say they want change. For what the roles are within the club, there is only really Ian which has kept a position, all the rest have either been created to get people to do some jobs or changed hands or currently nobody assigned. When the time comes to actually put that change together, nobody is willing to put themselves forward apart from the people who have now got the roles.

[Adey aka Ewok]

i cant speak on behalf of the other members to that dale but i have myself offered help a few times over.

[Bigfoot]

i cant speak on behalf of the other members to that dale but i have myself offered help a few times over.

Believe it was the car shows and updating of the front page?

They are trying to resolve this issue where you need full access to things to change just the front page, as far as I am away on this site. But that is in the process of being looked into. As can agree that the front page could do with a boost of activity, not that I look at that much as I go straight to forum page.

[Adey aka Ewok]

ive since applied for the role of SAR? i would of thought that would be up in the committee boards somewhere? If something needs doing the committee need to ask the members for help.

[Bigfoot]

Ahh forgot about that one, was trying to remember off the top of my head. But yes you have applied plus about 2 others so far.

[Trevhib]

Incidentally, when is the closing date for applications for the SAR role? If that were made clear in the application thread it would be useful. That way those who applied have manageable expectations.

Edit - will ask the question in that thread.

[Slammed 66]

'Change'

The buzzword of the moment.

Change this, change that, add new features here, improve layout there etc etc

End scenario: things may well be improved but the same people with nothing better to do than moan, will continue to find fault elsewhere

I think Andy Bond summed it up perfectly when he posted this picture weeks ago







I'm sick of the bickering and BS from the last few months. I just hope that sooner rather than later we can get back to what matters and rediscover the club spirit that's missing now.

Whether everyone populates this forum or any other, if you have the same people then sooner or later you're going to have the same issues.


Here endeth the mumblings of a melancholy Wednesday afternoon

[Mart]

The whole mess is linked to ND being at FCS which clashed with Sangliers and its now snowballed to where we are today.

That didn't help matters, but the main reason this all kicked off was due to the slating a few of us received from CM's in 'that' thread.

[Guybrush]

That didn't help matters, but the main reason this all kicked off was due to the slating a few of us received from CM's in 'that' thread.

[andybond]

That didn't help matters, but the main reason this all kicked off was due to the incorrect allegations and assumptions that a few of us received from CM's in 'that' thread. Which hasnt been resolved yet but this issue is masking it.

Changed that for you Mart.

[Rob1980]

As a complete neutral I see it like this:- In the eyes of the law you are innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until you prove your innocence. With this in mind it is quite unreasonable to ask the accused to prove their innocence.

Unless I have missed something then the whole case regarding Mart and Steve is circumstantial. Unless it can be proved beyond any doubt that they "hacked" the private boards or it can be proved that they know who did it then the benefit of the doubt must go to the accused. This is how our free world works and I personally believe that this should be followed.

It appears to me that people are letting personal feelings towards each other get in the way. Please take a step back and look at the hard facts and evidence. As always there may be something that I am not aware of or have missed, if so then please accept my apologies. I am just offering a point of view that I have gained by what has been written in past and previous threads.

I revert back to my previous post, this can be resolved in a matter of minutes! This will be the most contentious issue out of the way thus leaving the club to get back to normal. This will all be forgotten about in a month.

[Guybrush]

As a complete neutral I see it like this:- In the eyes of the law you are innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until you prove your innocence. With this in mind it is quite unreasonable to ask the accused to prove their innocence.

Unless I have missed something then the whole case regarding Mart and Steve is circumstantial. Unless it can be proved beyond any doubt that they "hacked" the private boards or it can be proved that they know who did it then the benefit of the doubt must go to the accused. This is how our free world works and I personally believe that this should be followed.

It appears to me that people are letting personal feelings towards each other get in the way. Please take a step back and look at the hard facts and evidence. As always there may be something that I am not aware of or have missed, if so then please accept my apologies. I am just offering a point of view that I have gained by what has been written in past and previous threads.

You talk a lot of sense.

Fundamentally, Adey starts a similarly named forum, Mart removes the sangliers thread forcing people who want to go over to the new forum. Steve then further solicits the RTOC members via pm to get them over in the new forum.
'That' thread simply sprinkled sh1t on a bad situation.

There is no proof that Mart or Steve compromised the boards. I think it's quite reasonable to ask them to help tighten that loop. It has already been said that whoever leaked the information will not suffer any infraction points. If they're not forthcoming with information in order to restore their full member status then that's sad, but they should probably be restored to full member status for the reasons you mention.

My take on it is that there is no infraction category for anything to do with a conflict of interest. There probably should be.
That said, I think the committee need to make some positive change to eliminate the committee-member divide. The committee are just members like everyone else, not folks sat on top of an ivory tower.

One thing i do know is if half the flack the committee get, happened in the other car club i'm a member of, those members coming out with the insults would be banned immediately (not dragging it out for weeks/months like for DaveL485), most members would have the common sense and good grace not to act that way.

[Lowiepete]

OK, so we have gone round in another circle...

Perhaps the people that advocate a leader could list here what the leader should do exactly, beyond what is done by other committee members.

The above brings us back on topic. I'm certain that I'm not the only one with constructive
answers to that question. Am I?

This thread, like a few predecessors, is bound to go awry unless it stays on topic, which
as I understand it, is a quest to resolve an issue, rather than perpetuate it. Right?

In any kind of organisation that relies solely on volunteers, the highest priority is that
those volunteers feel valued. My fear is that the present constitution more or less
legislates against that. My feeling is that the Committee should be separated from the
Officers, with the latter being appointees of the Committee.

With the Committee being separated, it becomes the Executive Committee, responsible
for the legal, financial and adminstrative functions of the club. EC members have a shelf
life, say 4 years. Officers stay in place for the duration. There should also be some
succession planning, especially for key positions.

EC meetings should last no more than an hour, with probably no more than 6 meetings
annually. That makes being an EC member much less arduous than has been described
previously. Voting at meetings should only be done by EC members, however, if the
Chairman feels that a wider vote would be more beneficial for the club, then it should
be in his gift to extend the vote to all attending members.

Officers will need to prepare structured reports for distribution at least a week ahead
of EC meetings. They should attend EC meetings and be free to participate in the
ensuing discussion. The Committee should _not_ second guess reports from Officers
and it will be up to the Chairman to keep clear control over that. Something about
barking yourself...

Day to day running of the Forum should be in the hands of a competent admin team,
the administrator of which reports to the EC - that role should be supported by one
of the ordinary EC members. It'll be the administrator who advertises vacancies for
people like moderators, and suitable candidate names will be EC confirmed based upon
the admin's recommendations. The method of how appointees are recommended should
be in a written policy document.

Organisation of Events and Area Groups should have a Co-ordinator, again being given
support by another of the ordinary EC members. The aims and methods should also be
published in a policy document.

Publicity, Recruitment & Retail should occupy the remaining EC member, supporting three
officers who do their respective admin functions. Ditto about policy documents.

What I'm describing is a simplification of roles and clear function for each. That way very
clear policy documents can be produced outlining what the club wants to achieve and
how it will support members in reaching club goals. With them being visible to everyone,
there should more opportunities for members to come forward to fulfil a particular
niche.

Everyone should be clear about their own part within the engine, with no-one wanting
to let their little bit bring it to a grinding halt. If that becomes a cherished aim for all
involved, it should make succession planning a whole lot easier! It should also stop any
sidelines carping and forum moderators should be strong in their policy toward this.

OK guys, there's some meat to chew over. I'm hoping that when I return to this thread
some of you will have picked it up and run with it. By the way, I'm not carping from the
sidelines here, I'd be happy to play a small part too, but it has to be aboard a much
happier ship than at present. The cars that we preserve are a significant part of British
motoring history and it is up to us to go forward. Can we do that?

Regards,
Steve

[gtmatt]

Committee members made offensive comments on there boards for no reason about members and have not said sorry that's the point ,and until apologys are made it's going to carry on IMO ,it's not rocking horse science is it

And why they made those offensive comments what ever was said was beyond me ??

Who ever made those comments has upset members ,

It's all a bit naughty IMO and none of this should of happened in the first place

[andybond]

DaveL

Two things.

1) It was DaveL485 , aka Sibley , not DaveL aka I dont know. Some scammer.
2) I think the hassle Dave gave out was proportional to the hassle he got from some CM members. It was easier to ban than carry on. In a similar way it is easier to carry on depriving the two lads what they paid for.

[Guybrush]

Committee members made offensive comments on there boards for no reason about members and have not said sorry that's the point ,and until apologys are made it's going to carry on IMO ,it's not rocking horse science is it

Am sure as a general rule you're right. I'm not sure if an apology is the whole point of the current goings-on.

And why they made those offensive comments what ever was said was beyond me ??

People don't tend to censor themselves as much behind closed doors.

[andybond]

People don't tend to censor themselves as much behind closed doors.

I was always told if you dont have anything nice to say about someone , dont say it at all.

Behind closed doors , or not.

[Guybrush]

Two things.

1) It was DaveL485 , aka Sibley , not DaveL aka I dont know. Some scammer.
2) I think the hassle Dave gave out was proportional to the hassle he got from some CM members. It was easier to ban than carry on. In a similar way it is easier to carry on depriving the two lads what they paid for.

1) Ok, DaveL485.
2) I PM'd Dave about his approach. He ignored my advice, a couple of weeks later he got banned. I'd have banned him sooner if i was on the committee.

I was always told if you dont have anything nice to say about someone , dont say it at all.

Behind closed doors , or not.

I agreee. And am sure any posts of mine in that thread weren't trash talking.
I'm just pointing out human behaviour.

[chris]

Committee members made offensive comments on there boards for no reason about members and have not said sorry that's the point ,and until apologys are made it's going to carry on IMO ,it's not rocking horse science is it

And why they made those offensive comments what ever was said was beyond me ??

Who ever made those comments has upset members ,

It's all a bit naughty IMO and none of this should of happened in the first place

Matt you couldnt be more wrong mate this is the problem. People dont actually know what happened that thread was after the committee had taken a load of crap on facebook and then a the thread was stolen from the committee boards by someone who is so pathetic that they wont admit to it and they are being protected by big steve who says he knows who it is but wont say and mart who has said he doesn't know. Thats whats happend my personl thread was on the committee pages now maybe I have myself to blame for assuming the site was secure. But how would you react matt ?

[andybond]

1) Ok, DaveL485.
2) I PM'd Dave about his approach. He ignored my advice, a couple of weeks later he got banned. I'd have banned him sooner if i was on the committee.

Thanks for point 1. It might be a little thing , but they are two different people. the main crux of the issue was a confusion with DaveL and Davel485.

Perhaps with the torrent of abuse from some of the CMs as well there could have been mutual bans? It appears the rules aren't for all. Instead of banning people , or threatening them with the ban stick why not listen to the issues ? Try and resolve / address ?

I agreee. And am sure any posts of mine in that thread weren't trash talking.
I'm just pointing out human behaviour.

[gtmatt]

Matt you couldnt be more wrong mate this is the problem. People dont actually know what happened that thread was after the committee had taken a load of crap on facebook and then a the thread was stolen from the committee boards by someone who is so pathetic that they wont admit to it and they are being protected by big steve who says he knows who it is but wont say and mart who has said he doesn't know. Thats whats happend my personl thread was on the committee pages now maybe I have myself to blame for assuming the site was secure. But how would you react matt ?

I sent u a pm mate

[andybond]

committee had taken a load of crap on facebook 7

Chris , which FB page?

and then a the thread was stolen

It wasnt ...

big steve who says he knows who it is but wont say

What do you hope to gain ? I have told many people on the CM that the boards werent hacked. I have told the same people it wont happen again.

my personl thread was on the committee pages

Which wasnt leaked so why mention ?

[Adey aka Ewok]

Matt you couldnt be more wrong mate this is the problem. People dont actually know what happened that thread was after the committee had taken a load of crap on facebook

was the crap on fb in question that started it all on the rtoc fb page?

[Big Steve - Raider]

So are Mart and I reinstated or banned for 6 months....?

SIMPLE AS THAT!?

The CM can hold me to ransom for the identity of the leak all they like, but I'm not a grass.

Sorry, but the CM continue to not look "Dynamic" the longer they string this out......

[chris]

Chris , which FB page?



It wasnt ...



What do you hope to gain ? I have told many people on the CM that the boards werent hacked. I have told the same people it wont happen again.



Which wasnt leaked so why mention ?

You are only going off what you were told Andy they would of had access to commitee page how do you know they weren't sat round going through every thread. So it's my problem and I will mention I take it serious so to you it's not a big deal to me it is that's the end of it. What I hope to gain is to find out how it was done and why. There's been loads on RTOC Facebook page I just saw screen shots of what was said. I really couldn't care less about the name calling and so on

[chris]

was the crap on fb in question that started it all on the rtoc fb page?

We were sent screen shots of loads of Facebook comments adey. I don't have Facebook but my girlfriend has so it's not ideal so only go off what I am seen or shown

[andybond]

lots of things.

Chris,

Irrespective of what may or may not have been looked at the personal information was not leaked.

I believe that the stuff on FB was put on there as it was one of the only places that could not have threads locked. What was the point of starting a new thread , a CM commenting on it and then locking it ( I must add I dont think you have done this ) without a right to reply.

All in all , there are 3 people who are caught up in the smaller picture from a coincidental series of events yet 2 are still banned.

There are lots of chaps hoping to further the RTOC, and lots that already have. Dont leave Mart and Steve out to dry, and open the door to some of the other guys who have posted in here.

[dave j gtt]

some good posts...

[paul b]

Matt you couldnt be more wrong mate this is the problem. People dont actually know what happened that thread was after the committee had taken a load of crap on facebook and then a the thread was stolen from the committee boards by someone who is so pathetic that they wont admit to it and they are being protected by big steve who says he knows who it is but wont say and mart who has said he doesn't know. Thats whats happend my personl thread was on the committee pages now maybe I have myself to blame for assuming the site was secure. But how would you react matt ?

Chris, by posting " someone who is so pathetic" you have just made that post absolutely useless... IF you are lowering yourself to call names over something like this then you really need to think before you type...

Has this NOT already snowballed enough because of name calling????...

as I have said before please GROW UP.. some great ideas as always brought up by a bad thread and completely looked over or ignored..
.. this goes to many people involved ...

[5teve L]

some good posts...

You learnt from your little holiday I hope... feel free to make points, just try not to be rude & abusive, & FFS make some sense this time

[dave j gtt]

You learnt from your little holiday I hope... feel free to make points, just try not to be rude & abusive, & FFS make some sense this time

derogatory remark you receive infraction 5 points

[5teve L]

derogatory remark you receive infraction 5 points

[Adey aka Ewok]

We were sent screen shots of loads of Facebook comments adey. I don't have Facebook but my girlfriend has so it's not ideal so only go off what I am seen or shown

What I'm trying to get at is if the comments that started that thread on the cm boards weren't on the rtoc fb page then they really shouldn't be used against anyone. You guys are here to police rtoc and fb rtoc not every members individual profiles and comments on fb. You guys spying/having screen shots of people's conversations away from rtoc made you all starts a thread voicing concerns but with derogatory comments about members. That thread then made its way off rtoc. Can one of you confirm if this is correct?

[chris]

What I'm trying to get at is if the comments that started that thread on the cm boards weren't on the rtoc fb page then they really shouldn't be used against anyone. You guys are here to police rtoc and fb rtoc not every members individual profiles and comments on fb. You guys spying/having screen shots of people's conversations away from rtoc made you all starts a thread voicing concerns but with derogatory comments about members. That thread then made its way off rtoc. Can one of you confirm if this is correct?

We were sent screen shots off a public page not off someones personal page off a group page. So no adey believe it or not the committee have better things to do than "spying" as you put it.

[Adey aka Ewok]

We were sent screen shots off a public page not off someones personal page off a group page. So no adey believe it or not the committee have better things to do than "spying" as you put it.

thats fine just wanted to know

[chris]

thats fine just wanted to know

.

[Trevhib]

it's not rocking horse science is it

[Matt Cole]

So are Mart and I reinstated or banned for 6 months....?

SIMPLE AS THAT!?

The CM can hold me to ransom for the identity of the leak all they like, but I'm not a grass.

Sorry, but the CM continue to not look "Dynamic" the longer they string this out......

Steve are you still on restricted access? TBH its not rocket science who might be in the picture for invading the commitee boards. Its someone who your extremely loyal to and someone that was once on the commitee. I would guess that said person left the committee but did not have their privalidges removed. Ooohhhh who might that be do we think?

[Big Steve - Raider]

Steve are you still on restricted access?

Who took the jam out of your doughnut?

[Mart]

Ooohhhh who might that be do we think?

Sounds like you already know, Matt. Perhaps you could inform the Committee, so that Steve & I can be reinstated...

[Guybrush]

Sounds like you already know, Matt. Perhaps you could inform the Committee, so that Steve & I can be reinstated...

Probable Butt Hurt

[Mart]

Definite sh1t stir.

[Guybrush]

Perhaps But Humorous

[Trevhib]

Tbh, it would be great if the CM could deduce who did this based on the available info* and then reinstate all those that aren't guilty of having done it (and I assume ban the person that did).

The restricted access that's been in place for those who're reinstated could be deemed punishment enough.

That would move this along somewhat without too much additional aggro for the protagonists on both sides.


*I have no idea though if there is enough information now in order to achieve this.

[dave j gtt]

two good members are better than none.

[Matt Cole]

Steves admitted he knows who did it. I imagine the commitee have an idea who did it. Steve needs to man up and all can move on. For what its worth (and not a lot really) I think Mart should be reinstated.

[5teve L]

Steves admitted he knows who did it. I imagine the commitee have an idea who did it. Steve needs to man up and all can move on. For what its worth (and not a lot really) I think Mart should be reinstated.

[Big Steve - Raider]

Steve needs to man up...

Man up about what Matt, who leaked the information?

Given the insults I saw on the CM boards I don't owe them anything & as i've stated before, if they want to ban or reinstate me then that's their decision, they're just drawing it out.

[andybond]

Man up about what Matt, who leaked the information?

Given the insults I saw on the CM boards I don't owe them anything & as i've stated before, if they want to ban or reinstate me then that's their decision, they're just drawing it out.

I also dont see what they will gain about finding out who did it ?