Been confirmed they will fit. So defo need a set as I think I am running on the stop ends at the moment
Been confirmed they will fit. So defo need a set as I think I am running on the stop ends at the moment
I'd only need a set of springs.
Is it possible?
If you mean all the oil has leaked out and they are not damping then that one thing, but if you mean your car is so low that it's sitting on the bump stops then that might ruin new shock absorbers. You'd perhaps need shortened shock to accommodate a drop of more then 40mm, or another Brand that Koni anyway as 40 is their stated maximum drop.Originally Posted by Numptysnumnuts
Been confirmed they will fit. So defo need a set as I think I am running on the stop ends at the momentThey may or may not be supplying springs. I think it might be good if we can source our own but that needs some co-operation from members who done this recently and know the spring rating, open length and ride height that the car settled to.
To order firmer springs you need a shorter open length. It needs to be correct or the car will sit too high or low.
I had about 180lb / inch on and that was a lot better than the standard springs. Then I got some custom made 250lb / inch and, whilst harder ride, was much better again for tight back road junctions and roundabouts. I sold those when I got some Konis which came with springs, softer, I don't know what rate, so tried them for a while, I preferred the harder ones as these supplied softer ones gave more under-steer especially noticeable on medium speed bends.
I expect I'd have re-fitted the harder springs but the engine broke and I never fixed it, so sold the 250's to Brad who sold them to Scott, who sold them...
I'd like to try 300lb / inch next if I were to use a 5GTT again.
Oil? Mine run on air at the moment and that's being serious. Hence the need for some new onesIf you mean all the oil has leaked out and they are not damping then that one thing, but if you mean your car is so low that it's sitting on the bump stops then that might ruin new shock absorbers. You'd perhaps need shortened shock to accommodate a drop of more then 40mm, or another Brand that Koni anyway as 40 is their stated maximum drop.
Do you mean all the oil has leaked out?
Some (most?) shock absorbers have an air bag in them to keep the oil pressurised to stop it frothing.
Shocks work by having a valve on a metal rod going up and down in a tube of oil. The valve resists oil flowing through it and this provides the damping.
There are no 'Gas Shocks'! The gas is the air bag up one end of a monotube or in the outer tube of a twin tube. The air pressure in the bag varies from make to make. Bilstein have very high pressure, Koni lower pressure. I think Spax have (had) no gas bag. The gas pressure shocks push the rods out as can be seen with Bilstein and Koni.
Ian - Mike and Tony are sorting my vehicle out and they have said the shocks have had it. There is virtually no play left in them and when he demonstrated to me he stated that its the rubbers stopping the shocks more than the shocks themselves.
Mart, Ian............
Just to reply to the previous posts.
No offence taken at all- I have no regard for 'ownership' over this group-buy, so 'if' the club wants (which i assume it doesn't) then the infomation is now readly available...........
Assuming we just go ahead as was, my family bereavement is drawing to a close, and further extended visit/stays away are over.
I am now back at home as of this weekend........have typed a 'group-buy' thread, which hopefullyexplains whats what........
All i want now is to reconfirm the prices (which i will do tmrw!), due to the fact that we'll be purchasing next year - I am massively assuming nothing is going to happen this side of christmas and am trying to take members with families into consideration?!
We will get the ball rolling this week, and i propose for the group-buy to finish (ie; paid up, names down, order sent!) latest beginning of Febuary?!
Hope that covers it
I'd take a full set I think. I've read most of the thread but just in case I missed something is this happening in the near future or are we just waiting on buyers to make up the numbers now? Or is the shop stepping in?
All I need to know is who do I pay and when, but count me in.
The money will be paid to the club - aiming for this to be a done deal beginning of Febuary.....
As far as numbers are concerned, this we will have to confirm once the agreed date/s of payments are also confirmed
Is the deal with the vendor that, to get the price, we make one single payment? After that we have to pay higher or full price for any subsequent one off or small orders orders?
Some people want these sooner it looks like.
Maybe we could ask who willing to pay now and who needs to wait 8 weeks?
The springs is the issue that needs to be resolved. I recall from Andrew Cookes Twingo project thread that he got some custom ones made. Maybe we can find out who that was, etc. Also we could ask people if they have any idea what spring rating they want. We could do with know the spec of the springs they supplied with the Koni kits over the years.
If any readers of this post have this info, info leading to this info, please post it here.
maybe do the group buy for just shocks all round as there seems to be some issues with spring choice, leave people to source own springs maybe?
The deal is 100% based on one bulk order, but they will be lenient with regards to actual quantities - they say 10+ but they arent going to quibble if we order only 9 for instance!
If people want these sooner, i'm game for that too..............i only suggest Febuary to help people out as its basically xmas?!
I completely agree about the springs issue, i will try again tmrw, but as i have suggest previously - if you are particular about the springs, and i fail to get a concise answer, then the springs will be in the individuals court as to wether they order them from PPD or source there own!
Absolutley - the springs will be an options from the group-buy, but for those that need particular spec springs, then it will be better to source their own......
Springs arent such a concern for me, they'll obviously fit, and be far better then my current set-up............at least i hope so
Once the lists up, add your name and we'll see what quantities we have........i assume the only issue would be postage for yourself though!
Im sorry to say Jimmy but its not going to be possible
If things progress as they are, and individuals make the purchase - then the company don't ship outside of the UK
Just something else to note, those that are following this thread
Postage to Southern Ireland is more - £15
And postage to the Channel Islands is more also - £23
Just looking into springs a little bit and need to post the info somewhere
Andrew Cookes Twingo suspension:
Post 473 onwards: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...t=5149&page=10
AST springs: http://www.appliedspring.co.uk/
To convert the spring rates: Newtons x 5.7082 = Lbs
I phoned the company that was suggested, here is the result:
Leisure Force, phone number: 01422 370 770
Made in Sweden. Technical and head office in Sweden.
Their Renault 5 GTT springs Part No. 4572901
These are their quoted original spec for the lowered kit of the 5GTT:
20 (I assume that means 20Nm = 114 lbs per inch)
Open length 267mm
Lowering spring; -35mm from OE.
3 pairs in stock. Last ones. No plans to make any more.
Don't supply direct. Go via distributors:
eg:
Camberly motor factors
or
GSF
So we'll be needed to get custom springs then. Above suggested one they knew of but said he's a one man company and can be slow to deliver:
Custom springs from: South Yorkshire springs in Rotherham.
IIRC, 5GTT is about 600lb over each front wheel.
So 600 ÷ 114 = 5.263 inches drop. (133.7mm)
267mm - 133.7mm = 133.3mm between spring seats.
IIRC, my 250lb per inch springs: 600 ÷ 250 = 2.4 inches or 61mm drop.
8½ inch open length = 216mm between spring seats when loaded.
8¼ inch open length = 209.5mm between spring seats when loaded.
It would seem then that their "open length" of 267mm is in fact the loaded length. I don't think mine were a further 51mm drop from their -35mm drop. I seem to recall that mine were about 12mm drop from original. None of this makes sense!
I'm getting lost with all this. Is this offer going to be a full suspension set? i.e. shocks front and back including springs or is it just shocks or just springs.
Why not make two seperate postings Suspension Springs and Supsension Shocks, if a name appears on both then thats what they need and if only on one then its their choice.
Me? whilst good at maths have no idea what Ian S is calculating but assume he knows what it all means. I just need my suspension sorted, I have no idea what springs I need but would rather get a complete set from one manufacturer including shocks. That way if the shocks leak or fail they can't turn round and say its becuase your using a spring thats not approved by them. All I do know that 40/40 sounds good to me (no idea what the ride height would look like. Just sounds even) and I assume at least allows me to drive round my estate without bottoming out on speed bumps.
It's not confusing
The springs appear to no longer be available that used to come with the kits that PPD, or who ever, supplied.
Wallace got a very good price on the set of four phase two shocks.
It might be possible to have just front shocks or rear shocks if the collective order is large enough.
For this group buy it seems that custom springs will need to be sought.
It fair and reasonable that some people might be better to try and get a kit (for twice the price) from a main seller if they feel less confused and happier that way, better warrantied, or don't want to wait for the more experience enthusiasts to work out what the best set up is and find somewhere to place an order for suitable springs.
I'm just helping out here. I don't really care. I'm not buying any for myself unless I try and get some for the Fiat I have, but I'm not sure I want to as that's a can or worms of it's own that I have to figure out all by myself as no-one on the fiat forums seems to know much about suspension or springs and I'm just not interested in pioneering this now on what is effectively an obsolete car with no used parts market. I did that 12 years ago with the 5GTT and moved on 6 years ago because I couldn't afford to keep the 5 going. If this group buy become too difficult then I'm sorry but I'm not going to do every bit of thinking for everyone here. Someone other than Wallace and I have to contribute something toward resolving the issues we're encountering and I mean contribute other than questions and criticism
Koni specify maximum drop of 40mm from original. But it's proving hard to find out what original is. No-one seems to know any more.
These cars and these kits are somewhere around 25 years old. The people who worked it all out and tested it all are probably retired now and I don't have any of their data. They kept it all secret?
As far I know Koni didn't approve any specific makes of spring.
It would be nice if someone other than me who has relevant experience of springs rates, etc, would add their knowledge to this thread
I read last night over at Clio Sport people talking about springs. Various people trying various springs and rates and handling around tracks. They have rear springs as well as fronts. 450lb front and 400lb rear. That's hard that is. Is that what we need? I've no idea!
I rang PPD. There are one pair of front shocks and no rears in stock at the moment and he felt there'd be none in the UK at any distributor as they are a very slow selling item now. Koni are making another batch of 50 front and 50 rear this month which will be available in Jan 2013. They will be held at Koni on Holland and probably sold to France, etc, unless we get out order in first. They are making another batch later in the year.
He's used the Swedish company Leisure Force to supply all the springs for the 'Koni Kits' for the 5GTT since the mid 1990's. So they are the 'official' spring.
part no:
front K 8741 1167 sport
rear K 26-1299 sport
He said he hadn't sold Fiat Cinquecento Koni Sport shocks for three years and they were taken out of production a year ago. Replaced with the non adjustable version I mentioned that are made in Spain to Koni Spec and the same valving as the softest setting on the Sport adjustables.
So there we have it
Good work Ian
Let's get the ball rolling & get our names on some of those 50 then
Thanks
Found some springs listed here. Don't know if they have them though.
http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/ Can't get the page itself to show. Just the home page. You'll all have to just navigate to the Renault, suspension, springs section.
As those Leisure Force springs are only available to re-sellers, end users in this group buy may as well get them themselves.
If the RTOC buys them then there's postage to us, and then to the end user. Unless we can get a great discount from GSF or somewhere for all remaining three pairs.
People should make up their minds if they want these standard rate lowering springs or some firmer custom ones.
Then basically, if you're serious you should buy the springs now while you still can.
One advantage with these adjustable Konis, is that you can try some firmer springs and adjust up the rebound setting a bit. If you don't like them and get even harder springs, you can adjust them up some more. Eventually you might to get the bump setting softened a bit, if Koni will still do that for customers.
You'll have to make sure the open length is not too little of the springs fall out of the seats, I think 8½ inches might be OK but 9 inches to be more sure. With the 250 lb / inch springs I had, 9 inches would be about standard car height above the ground as, IIRC, what I had was about 12mm lowered. If anyone here wants to buy some like this I'll have to try and find the paperwork. Not sure I can though after all these years so you'll probably have to just try a set and be prepared to lost that money and try and second set that you've slightly adjusted the spec of.
You may need to adjust the rear height a bit to go with the height of your front springs.
I know this isn't the best question but can I not use my apex ones? Or I have some spax aswell? I haven't gone through the whole thread as I use my iPhone to come on here.. Cheers guys
Yes, you can, of course, use your existing standard or lowering springs, provided they are not more than 40mm lowering.
I have two types 40mm and 50mm currently on but I love the 50mm drop look will 10mm make that much a different to the shocks?
I'd be surprised if it really is 50mm lower than standard. My -12mm, or whatever is was, was about the same as most people so called -35mm or so.
It's been enough years now that I don't really remember, there've been many threads and posts about this going back to 1999 or so.
Mind you most suspension on these cars has sagged so they only way to mesure the drop is new against new originals i may be talking crap
One set of My springs was old but spotless the 50mm I bought new and they are Definatley different in heights that's one reason why I took the 16s off they were slightly catching on full lock.. On 15s now and no probs.. So we're saying 50mm won't be a problem then? I too am just worried about the warranty if anything may go south..
The question is are they 50 mm lower than standerd or are they more but if the koni suspension says no more than 40mm you cant put any thing lower or you will void warrenty
You have to make sure for yourself. If they fail in some way and you return them to Koni to take apart and find damage due to over lowering, then they won't be covered.
I fitted my lowering spring maybe 12 years ago. My original springs height compared to other peoples original springs height at the time.
So where would the shocks have to be sent back to if there was a fault? Is it a UK address?
There's no chance of me putting bigger springs in my car than my present 50mm. So this would invalidate any warranty on them?
I presume it's Farnborough, Hampshire and that's where they are being sent from after arriving in the UK from Holland; PPD Performance Parts Direct http://www.koni.uk.com .
Are they really 50mm though, as stated above. If they certainly are, then yes I expect that how it is. Koni state that, not lower than 40mm from OE for their yellow 'Sports Shocks': See here.
Thanks Ian.
Right does anyone have a measurement for standard suspension from the bottom of the body kit to the floor for a oe gtt?
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...ghlight=height
Running 50mm springs will just mean the shock will bottom out before the spring compresses enough to stop it. You might be alright as I think spring tolerance is something like 12+/- ~ but I might be wrong but it's surprising how much it can be out from spring to spring
WARRANTY is 100% with PERFORMANCE PARTS DIRECT (KONI UK) - So yes, if any problems they will be sent back to them.
As they will be shiping them to the individual direct, they will have a record of the purchase date,you info, and you have 2 years from that date.
It is agood point, but from personal experience, and i'm not saying this would happen............but.............whenever warranty is offered by these companies, you would phone up, say 'they are faulty' - send them back and they just repair or replace no questions asked.
As i say, i;m not saying this will be the case, but are they really going to know and prove you are at fault and not the product?
Personnally, i say no! - but it has to be considered i suppose?!
I sent a set of four back that I purchased from an RTOC member and they tested them and said the fronts were to far gone to repair and it would cost less to buy new.
It used to be the case with the rear shocks that they could not take them apart in the UK as they are high(ish) pressure gas charged mono tubes and they don't posses the equipment to do it. But the fronts they can service and revalve.
So I can only presume that if your newish shocks stop damping and you return them the first thing they will look at is to see of the valving is damaged through bottoming out. I've not heard of anyone who found this has happened to their Koni sports shocks though. But I don't know everyone
It can't be "centre of front wheel". That doesn't vary in height. Unless you fit bigger wheels, etc.
Ha ha, correct. If you measure from floor to "wheel centre". If you go "wheel centre to arch lip it
Can
May as well measure floor to arch lip? Though that has a slope. Or floor to front jacking point. Or the bottom of the front bumper.
The question is what the Haynes say for the standard car.
Doesn't the Haynes have some lines drawn from the front, through some specific points to some other points? I haven't looked since what seems like the 1980's!! But must be later than that.
As I said Haynes tells you, I've not got it to hand.
I quickly checked as when I replied in the linked thread it was next to me, I gave the height and where it said to measure, I edited my post as I copied the info and removed the part which said I'd check and post up what it said. maybe someone who has it to hand could scan said page and upload it?
Wheel centre to arch will always stay the same, uneven floors to any other point on the car will always change. Where I park on my drive there are 4 dips which each wheel stops in so I know I've parked far enough up but not too close to the wall, if I measure the jacking point to floor it wouldn't be the same as parked on the road, you'd also have to take into consideration tyre profiles and pressures.
"when parked on a flat road", it's too obvious to mention, so I didn't!
I've just looked at the Haynes and if you can make that make sense give yourself a pat on the back
For the rear the Haynes says:
H4 - H5.
Which appears to me to be
(the height from the rear wheel centre to the ground) minus (the height from the centre of the torsion bar to the ground)
and is stated,
for the 5GTT up to 1988, as +20mm (+10mm -5mm).
for the 5GTT 1988 onwards, as +23mm (+10mm -5mm).
So that's not a height from the ground, just an angle. It's independent of wheel and tyre size.
That suggests to me that the centre of the torsion bar should be 23mm lower than the wheel centre.
Good luck with the front!
All I can tell for the front is that H1 = 101mm taller than H2.
From the inadequate drawing H1 or / and H2 may or may not be the wheel centre!
So nothing there states actual height from ground to anywhere either as the sum of this equation is dependant on the wheel and tyre height.
I do know, because I carefully measured it a few times and have it written down somewhere, that with the OE tyres the front tyre has quite a bit more squash than the rear tyre.
IIRC, it's 10mm more. And might be 5mm for the 15" wheels and 195 45 tyres.
Also, I found a bit of paper with some of my springs details written, dated 12th April 2000. Says the 250lb/" were 5½ turns and measured, before fitting to the car,
for one spring,
8¼ inches on one side of the spring and 8 on the other side of the same spring.
And for the other spring,
8¼ inches on one side of the spring and 8 1/8 on the other side of the same spring.
Sorry Ian, didn't mean it to come across as insulting your intelligence. Was a sweeping statement intended for everybody to understand why you can not take body ride heights from various points of any vehicle to the floor as there are too many variables to take into consideration.
The measurements must be taken from two points on the vehicle that won't change or be affected by these variables, hence the equations in the Haynes manual. It won't give you a body height from the ground clearance, just the distance between the two points.
I will also admit that I was wrong with my previously linked info as I gave what I thought at the time was correct and I hadn't spent enough time checking the facts, I had been in the garage working on my car, came in to check something in the articles against the Haynes.
When I have the manual infront of me again I will take another look and see what I can come up with.
It OK Nick I wasn't taking insult
To make comparisons I measured several specific places several times for each change, noting them down each time.
I don't seem to have heights with original springs.
But...
Seems I measured the open length of my 12 year old OE springs back in 2000.
11½ = 292mm
11¾ = 298mm
Leisure Force lowered kit of the 5GTT:
Open length 267mm
-35mm from OE.
So by that, the LF springs are -25 and -31mm from open length.
How that translates to final height will depend on the springs rating over the shorter length as a springs resistance to compression can increase as the spring is compressed. That might be partly why the first pair of springs I had done didn't drop enough. The manufacturer didn't specify at what point of compression, or full length, they were 180lb / inch. If they were 180 at full length, then 200 at -1 inch, we'd have under estimated.
I remembered that Koni man said that he had a 'tuning' company fit the shocks and springs to check the fit and heights. In the late 1980's I guess and then I expect again in the mid 1990's when he changed to the Leisure Force springs.
Very tempted with these, seems a good deal and possibly last chance to get a new set without paying silly money. Might need to get myself a xmas present lol
Waiting for payday (Tuesday) to make my mind up but its a bargin at that price an if I can manage it as I was aiming for feb buying them. Let you know Tuesday
Yeah, it's an amazing deal really, we appear to be getting the top level distributor price and we're not putting any profit on. So they're nearing ½ price?
I think this will be a one off purchase as we'd need to do a bulk buy each time and are there that many 5GTT owners in the UK who don't already have a set?
From what he said, they're not scheduled to be making any more after February of these yellow Sport Adjustable. I presume unless Koni receive Euro wide back orders to make worth their while.
I use mine daily so I hope they last better than the two second hand sets iv used in a yr
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