once you've posted figures, then work out bhp per £ spent....
just kiddin dude, i have alot of time for your old wagon
once you've posted figures, then work out bhp per £ spent....
just kiddin dude, i have alot of time for your old wagon
This is the standard GTTuning ram raid induction kit, basically a K&N element for a R5 GTT with a throttle body trumpet in one end.
But this is the down fall, the trumpet starts a good 2inches up inside the filter
Stripped down
Cardboard template
Bottom plate
Repositioned trumpet
And the filter in its new home
After mapping today I had to give it a squirt on the way home and at 14psi it decided to brake its own bonnet mounts at the front and make a bid for freedom :shock:
So abit of modding is in order, the standard bonnet mount with the factory circlip
removed for quick release
Abit of drilling and a clip, job done
Nice work oliver, you've got some good ideas, i like alot.
I guess its time to report on the mapping
Well it started fairly badly, having damaged an intercostal muscle (I can't spell so don't say it) I couldn't investigate a misfire the car had under a certain amount of throttle, I had to hope it was just down to the fact the car now has a piper 285 cam, ported head and new turbo and needed mapping but alas it wasn't.
At first Dave thought it was the overlap on the cam being to much but a quick check of valve lift disproved that, so he got down to some mind bending mapping work, the guy is bloody impressive to watch.
Although it wasn't a mapping issue Dave was able to map around it as such until a time as I can Id the problem and sort it so he can finish the job properly.
I asked Dave to set the car up with 3 boost levels, 8psi for day to day driving and motorway crusing, 14psi for track use and 22psi for drag use.
Well best get on with the results, can't tell you how much it made at 8psi as I forgot that print out.
At 14psi it made 169.9bhp and 172.4ft lb
And at 22psi it made 211.5bhp and 203ft lb
Now straight away looking at those graphs you can see somit ain't right as the power drops off fast after around 5500rpm to 6000rpm, Dave is convinced the cam is too wild to work properly with my efi plenum but I think the cam timing is out so at some point I'm gunna have to whip the timing cover off and go over it to find out for sure.
In the mean time, I'm off, gotta go find me a scooby to waste
does he know that a 285cam doesn't have 285deg duration?
you might want to show him this:
https://www.rtoc.org/cam/?cam=std+GTT...vance=0&vc=0.2
do you have an original 285 with 112deg LSA or the newer one with 110deg? Either way that's a pretty mild cam.
When I told him he dissappered off for 20mins and came back after calling piper and getting the specs direct from them, he then change his mind about the overlap and began looking at other things.Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke
It was the 285 out of Handy Andy's old engine, you'd have to ask him which one it is
do you have access to the fuel and ignition maps?
Can do, just gotta pick up me laptop tomorrow and I can send em to ya
Right I have a list of things to check they may have caused the problems from yesterday, but I'd like ideas from you guys on what it could be so I'll try and discribe the problem as best I can.
At low rpm under heavy load it misfires continusly but will rev past it and rev cleanly after all the way upto 7000rpm
The power drops off fast after 5500-6000rpm but with a 285cam and a turbo of this size it should keep pulling beyond 7000rpm
The idle speed is all over the place and sometimes it will cut out at juctions and the like
And finally its not making the power it should, JP and Handy Andy recon its at least 20bhp down
Any ideas?
Main jet too big...
Sorry, I'm not able to help but I've been more interested in this project again in the last few months since you've been more focused again. Good luck getting it sorted. It must already be bloomin' fast.
put it this way, there's a section of duel carriageway near me thats used for cough testing cough, and it just blew my old best top speed into the weeds at only 14psi, I'm too scared to use 22psi yetMain jet too big...
Sorry, I'm not able to help but I've been more interested in this project again in the last few months since you've been more focused again. Good luck getting it sorted. It must already be bloomin' fast.
This is the ignition map at 22psi
A this is the injection map at 22psi
Hi Oli,
Just looking at your maps there, am I reading this right??? It looks like you're too rich top end, I would have thought that 12.00 - 12.50 afr would be more in the park for max power.
Looks like you're at about 10.25 WOT Maybe a little too safe
it looks too rich as it's spooling too. leaning it out a little there will help spool the turbo. your ignition map looks fine enough on the whole, up until about 80% tps, then you have more timing going in ? Thats quite a bit of timing for a C1J, are you low compression ?
no scoff he is running standard compression, seems strange as hi five is running a similar set up, could it be his throttle body causing the probs, as it has a 75mm tall neck on it before hits the body of the manifold,(all of the over inlet manifolds used seem to have the throttle body directly fitted to inlet )maybe causing flow issues?
forgot to add cam was at 110 when fitted ,think oli has tryed 6 +/-degrees to see if it made any differencehe also had this misfire (problem )with his old vnt ,but the t28 seems to have highlighted the problem more sinse being fitted
Right best I clear up a few details
1) The missfire isn't a mapping issue and Dave did his best to map around it which means some of the numbers aren't perfect for the engine
2) Although I'm using standad comp pistons the head has had a couple skims so if anything the comp ratio is up
3) The missfire I had with the VNT was in the same missfire I have now but I only had a 275cam then, I'm guessing with a 285cam its showing up more
4) The fuel pressure reg isn't great but it is holding enough pressure to do the job so thats not the cause, but I'm still going to change it as its a cheap and nasty piece of kit and I'd rather not loose an engine due to a cheapo reg
5) I've gone over everything I can think of that may cause the missfire and the only thing I haven't been able to disprove is the flow design of the inlet manifold, fortunatly TNT Ross has come up trumps with one of those modded stock gtt manifolds with the injectors mounted in some exteneded runners, so I'm try that and see what happens
Hi Oli
I definately think you need to re visit the timing > 80% throttle, it looks a bit scary to me. I'm assuming Dave monitored for knock when mapping your motor ? Maybe the over rich AFR is calming things down
When you say misfire, do you mean ignition or injector related ? Can you log a pull to check that the ECU isn't loosing sight of the crank etc ? Does it only happen at a specific RPM then clear ?
Honestly don't know andy, all I can tell you is that I took my time with glenn's to make sure that it was as good as it could be. I wouldn't worry too much about the duty, AFR's in the 10's might explain most or all of that. I guess fuel pressure was checked under load too ?no scoff he is running standard compression, seems strange as hi five is running a similar set up, could it be his throttle body causing the probs, as it has a 75mm tall neck on it before hits the body of the manifold,(all of the over inlet manifolds used seem to have the throttle body directly fitted to inlet )maybe causing flow issues?
I've tried the standard timing map you sent me Scoff and the miss is still there so I don't think its a mapping problem.
Yeah Dave monitored for knock.
Dave showed me the log at the end of the day so I could see it wasn't anything to do with the ecu (he's had a few people say its his fault but it turns out was thiers) I'll admit Dave proberbly doesn't know enough about the C1J to map it perfectly but the basics are still the same as any other engine.
It happens from around 2400rpm to 3200rpm but only at more than a quater throttle it will miss but will rev past and pull clean all the way to 7000rpm.
I've had the injectors flow tested which came back clear, I've tried a dozen different spark plugs, no change, HT leads have been changed twice, no change, the coil pack has been changed again no change.
The thing that makes me think manifold aswell is the fact the power drops off fast after 5500rpm-6000rpm even though the turbo is still holding boost perfectly, JP said somit about it still making more power after 7000rpm so it can't be that.
Tell ya what Scoff, if this manifold of Ross's doesn't sort it, at Frog of the pod I'll take you for a blast and you can see for yourself
Earths, fuel filter?
I've had extra earths to my engine and the associated electrics ever since I bought it.
The fuel filter was brand new when I did the conversion, is still mint
What about the ECU? How is that earthed?
Earthed through its own casing to the metal work next to the battery and has a dedicated earth the battery as per the Emerald instructions
Oli, OK seems a bit weird doesn't it. Can you not be sure that it's an ignition cut or a fuel thing ? Is it just lacking power or is it popping a lot out of the exhaust ?
What sort of dwell do you have set for your coil(s) ? (sorry, can't remember if you were wasted spark or not)
Its a full on missfire, engine struggles for s second then clears, puffs of smoke out the exhaust, power drop off all the usual signs of a missfire.
I have no idea on dwell, wouldn't even know where to look but I can ask Dave.
Its a single ford zetec coil pack with wasted spark.
I've got a new fuel pressure reg as the old one was a little bit cheap for my liking, plus it was a pig to set up the pressure.
I've also borrowed a different efi manifold to test weather its my manifold or not, got abit of fabrication to get the air temp sensor relocated and a new throttle cable clamp but should be up and running in a few days
Right some progres, well I say progress more like doing right what should have been done right first time over a year agoThe guy who made the parts for my EFI connversion has caused me nothing but grief and he will get whats coming to him and before anyone makes any comments along the lines 'I told you so' just feck off because that isn't very helpfull.
First off the fuel pressure regulator which I was told was a exspensive quality part that was going to go on his Lancer turned out to be a 22quid job off ebay
Then he over tightened the -6 fuel hose fittings stripping half the threads causing a minor leak
And then to finish it off he drilled and tapped 2 holes in the side for the mounting bracket, these holes went right into the body of the regulator and when I took it off petrol came out, this is the worst bit about it as the regulator was holding the fuel at 3bar of pressure at idle wnd that would rise the boost pressure increased
Next thing he did wrong that I'm sorting now is the inlet manifold that he spent a year designing and making and told me his friend who worked for a wrc team flow tested it. I asked a mate Alex to have a quick look at it on the car and what he said made me take it off and get it checked for myself.
What the guy had to tell me was not good, he looked at it for about 30seconds before saying it was scrap metal and that there was no point flow testing it, I asked him to do it anyway and test a standard GTT inlet manifold, the results that came back were aweful, in his opinion I was better off going back to a carb than to continue with this manifold the the carb manifold although not great flowed better and more evenly across the cyclinders than the EFI one.
You can see from this pic the throttle boddy is not centrel the runners causing the outer 2 to get less air, infact no.4 hardly got any. You can also see that throttle body is not fitted directly to the plenum chamber but on a sort of tube causing the air going in to be aimed at the inner 2 cyclinders.
This is the view down the throttle body hole showing the poor welding that came through to the inside, unfortunaly this is the best bit but I can't get a clear pic of the worst bits.
This is the view just inside the head end of the runners, you can see the inside of the runner hasn't been blended into the flange, infact there is a ridge that causes a flow disruption.
To most the problems above would cause the end of a project or at the very least make them go back to a carb, but after getting 40+ mpg and over 200bhp with a dodgy manifold and regulator I figure its best to finish what I've started.
My first job the fuel pressure regulator, a quick call to a supplier and I have a FSE motorsport regulator with -6 fittings sitting on my doorstep, unfortunatly thier idea of red looks more pink to mebut hey aslong as it works I'm happy.
I made a decent bracket for that doesn't move around or require drilling holes in the regulator.
This is the new manifold, it use the throttle body from a Lancia Delta Intergrale but needs a few mods to make everything fit right.
Some more pics of the new setup.
First off the new throttle cable clamp, see Nigel very simple piece of angle ally with some holes in it.
This bit has all the vacuum ports on it plus the two one way valves at the rear for the brake servo and breather system
The new manifold with my injectors and fuel rail fitted and a much better injector angle pointing almost straight at the back of the valves.
And here you can see how it looks fitted, just gotta get Alex to chop off a pipe from the throttle body and balnk the hole and weld abit of ally on a boost pipe so I can tap it for the air temp sensor and then I can try it.
Dont want to sound negative on the old manifold, but even with my limited manifold knowledge that looks a million times better. Great project mate and love your enthusiasm lol Glad you kept your chin up after all that crap.
Yep, just wish I'd done all the work myself the first time round and I coulda saved loads of cash and time.
The manifold I'm using now is basically a modded GTT manifold so can't go to far wrong, would like to know who made it though
I forget his name, chap in Ireland, he's being doing all sorts of interesting castings from twin solex, to SU, to EFI. It'll come to me
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349
that's the guy
Excellent, cheers Tricky Nicky
just read all through this thread brilliant project and iv got the biggest respect for you not giving up when hitting problems and actually making a 100 times better set up in process
Looking v-good Oli - did it go on ok? Mine was a chore to get on due to poor machining round where the nuts tighten onto the studs. Could hardly get a spanner onto most of them.
Keep up the good work chappy.
Andy
Needed abit of a filing to a get a spanner on but that I was ok with that, it was getting it bolted to the head that was the Asre of a job, would be easy with the head off but I didn't want to waste a gasket just to save abit of skin
1-2-3------- skinNeeded abit of a filing to a get a spanner on but that I was ok with that, it was getting it bolted to the head that was the Asre of a job, would be easy with the head off but I didn't want to waste a gasket just to save abit of skin
Thats you that is!
Are you going with the 60mm throttle body? Will this not be a bit snappy? I've no evidence as to whether this will be so, but it seems to be an issue amongst fellow tuners in the 1.4 engine. I had an adapter made up and am using a 40mm Mondeo jobby.
a good compromise between andy and os throttle bodies could be a 48mm or 52mm tb off a k series engine (52mm was on the zr160)
I had a 55mm mitsubishi starion body before and at first I thought it was snappy but after a couple of weeks it became like second nature, yeah there proberbly is a point at which openning the throttle any further makes no difference as the engine can't flow enough air but I'm not really bothered, the fact is it made over 200bhp, did 40+mpg, was smooth to drive in town, cruised along at 70mph on motorways without even blinking and did all that with some pretty serious problems, can't wait to see what it'll do now those problems have been sorted
Top staying power
looking much much betterthe new manifold is one of michael's castings i'd say, sorry if I missed you saying you knew that already.
Had been mentioned but thats ok.looking much much better
Would like to know if anyone else has tried one yet and if so how well did it work, is there anything I need to keep an yeye for
Got a hold of Alex saturday morning, he nipped to his workshop and did the bits I needed even though he wasn't gunna be there, top bloke, cheers fella :thumbleft:
This is what he did, the throttle body with the pipe removed and a proper bung made
The new boost pipe with abit welded on the side so I can drill and tap it to take the air temp sensor
Gave the boost pipe a go with my ally polishing wheel and this is how everything now looks
With help from Handy Andy I got the 5 idlin smoothly on thursday night and the fuelin safe up to 7k at 7psi at full throttle, although its not a perfect map across the rev range at part throttle as I found out on the way to Pod on friday mornin as exactly at the right revs and throttle load for crusing at 70mph was abit lean but thanks to my latest ebay purchase a laptop costin 21quid I was able to adjust the map enough to make it safe.
I dont know everything about mapping but I know enough to map it safe using a base gtt ignition map I got from Scoff, thanks again Scoff
Right its been 2weeks since I got the manifold setup running and there have been no problems, this makes me concerned as my 5 runs its best right before it blows up spectacually lol.
Anyway I haven't been able to do much map tweaking as the battery in my newely aquired laptop lasts for about half a second
home from FCS 2010 and fellin smug
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