My engine rebuild

[Nottswoody]

I see Prima are still a bunch of hairy bags then.

There have been no end of Prima threads on this club over years and I've said the same thing in every one. Stay away.

There should be statement given to all new members.

"Don't bother with Prima unless you absolutely have to. If you do, go prepared, don't let them touch your car and don't take any crap."

I got the distinct feeling if you ain't buying they ain't talking.. I had a 5 yrs ago at there last place and they were nice enough then.. When I turned around in the shop you can view the workshop area.. There was an old gorgeous firari don't ask which one it looked like James bonds old Aston.. Then there were two 50s race cars there so I'm guessing they don't need the 5 scene like they used to.. I can honestly say I won't set foot in there again..

[Big Steve - Raider]

Dti orderd should be here Friday so can some one spell out even show with pics what I do after the tdc is found its the timing of the cam and how to measure that that's blowing my mind as the vernier doesn't have the - mark on their.. I'm sure it's very easy but its not to me lol

Ok so here goes:

Fit the original timing gears and a NEW CHAIN and TENSIONER. That will then make sure you're in the right ball park to begin with.

Then (without moving any of the gears) carefully remove the Camshaft Gear and fit the Vernier Pulley.

Next fit the Timing Disc to the Crankshaft (Fit disc with the Pulley to stop you mashing the Disc up from the bolt). Do the bolt up TIGHT (you need to rotate the engine anticlockwise sometimes & it's annoying when you do that & the flippin bolt comes undone)

Now fit the DTI Gauge onto the Block and position the tip over Piston #1 (Closest to the Timing Chain). Then wind the crank round and note the highest position of the piston on the DTI gauge. That position is then at TDC. You then need to bend your piece of wire coathanger around a bolt, and bolt it to the block. You then need to bend the wire to point to the TDC mark on the Timing Wheel.

There is a certain amount of "Dwell" on a Crankshaft (where the piston is at the top of it's stroke) and that can be seen when you're using a timing disc. If you CAREFULLY rotate the crankshaft, you will notice that you can rotate the crank maybe a couple of degrees without it moving the DTI? Well that's the dwell. You need to make sure you notice where the dwell starts, and where it stops (measured in degrees on the Timing Disc). The middle of these two positions is TRUE TDC. When you find this middle position, again tweak your bit of wire to point to TDC on the Timing Disc.

Now it's time to set the Camshaft Timing. Remove the DTI gauge from measuring the head of the piston, and adjust it to measure the top of the camshaft Follower on the Inlet Valve of piston #1 (second Follower from Timing Chain). I imagine this will be a little bit tricky so would welcome some suggestions from other members here on what to use to make obtaining that measurement easier? A small metal block for example?

Anyway, as soon as you have your Camshaft Follower measurement set, you can rotate the crankshaft to find the point at which the camshaft follower will come no higher (ie you're at the top of the cam). You now need to notice the measurement on the DTI gauge and write this down. (Say it's 8.1 for example).

Next comes the part where everything starts to make sense....! Turn the engine back to the TDC position and then look in the leaflet that came with your cam to get the correct timing position in degrees (say it's 112 ATDC - After Top Dead Centre). Now rotate the engine CLOCKWISE until you get to that position (112 degrees).

Now you need to undo the bolts which give you the adjustment on the vernier pully and rotate the camshaft independantally to the crankshaft (making sure you don't turn the camshaft from TDC) until you find the highest position of the camshaft follower again (remember in this example we measured it to be 8.1).

Then tighten everything up and you're timed!!!!! Check everything a couple of times to make sure you're right and adjust where necessary. (Rotate the engine a couple of turns and then find 112 ATDC and make sure you still have the 8.1 on the dti)

Sorted.

You then need to get a hammer, and get EVIL on the timing chain cover to give yourself clearance.

[GTphil]

I will also add don't turn the engine backwards while taking any measurements, as the timing chain has some slack in it and this can muck your readings up

so say you go passed tdc turn the engine over the corrects way to try and find it again

[Nottswoody]

Thanks Steve top man thank you very much.. It's starting to sink in it doesn't help when I only have half the tools needed I think iv been looking at to many different ways of doing this.. It's was also a very cold day in my garage and as a friend said I got carried away seeing all the new parts I just wanted to fit them all I won't get chance till Friday night now but I will be cracking on with it ASAP. I want to get it finished and ran in before people start going to pod.. Again thanks

[Nottswoody]

Thanks Steve top man thank you very much.. It's starting to sink in it doesn't help when I only have half the tools needed I think iv been looking at to many different ways of doing this.. It's was also a very cold day in my garage and as a friend said I got carried away seeing all the new parts I just wanted to fit them all I won't get chance till Friday night now but I will be cracking on with it ASAP. I want to get it finished and ran in before people start going to pod.. Again thanks

Oh and I guess it was a waste of time painting the cam cover then lol

[GTphil]

Oh and I guess it was a waste of time painting the cam cover then lol

either use a thinner washer under the vernier bolt or use a cork timing cover gasket and you won't need to bash anything as satisfying as this can be.

[Nottswoody]

either use a thinner washer under the vernier bolt or use a cork timing cover gasket and you won't need to bash anything as satisfying as this can be.

Is that what the cork gasket is for in the bottom gasket set iv got a couple of washers with copper inserts left over I haven't a clue were they go any ideas? I didn't remove any I think..

[GTphil]

Is that what the cork gasket is for in the bottom gasket set iv got a couple of washers with copper inserts left over I haven't a clue were they go any ideas? I didn't remove any I think..

I know what ones you mean, I never used them anywhere either the cork gasket is yes, as long as it's timing cover shaped of course

[Nottswoody]

I know what ones you mean, I never used them anywhere either the cork gasket is yes, as long as it's timing cover shaped of course

So the large metal one isn't an alignment washer for the chain?

[GTphil]

Not sure what one you mean? I was referring to the copper ones with rubber inserts, usually inside the small bag in the bottom end set, didn't read your post correctly a pic might jolt the old grey matter or someone elses......

[Nottswoody]

Not sure what one you mean? I was referring to the copper ones with rubber inserts, usually inside the small bag in the bottom end set, didn't read your post correctly a pic might jolt the old grey matter or someone elses......

Sorry I thought you said replace the washer on the vernier with a thinner one.. Is this not needed to keep inline?

[GTphil]

when I stripped my lump I had a thick cast washer under the bolt for the vernier I just didn't bother with the cast washer and just used the really thick washer under the bolt, I will get a pic in 2 mins

[GTphil]

My phones being a tard there's a pic close up of my pully on the second page of the pics on my profile

[gttjames]

Ok so here goes:

Fit the original timing gears and a NEW CHAIN and TENSIONER. That will then make sure you're in the right ball park to begin with.

Then (without moving any of the gears) carefully remove the Camshaft Gear and fit the Vernier Pulley.

Next fit the Timing Disc to the Crankshaft (Fit disc with the Pulley to stop you mashing the Disc up from the bolt). Do the bolt up TIGHT (you need to rotate the engine anticlockwise sometimes & it's annoying when you do that & the flippin bolt comes undone)

Now fit the DTI Gauge onto the Block and position the tip over Piston #1 (Closest to the Timing Chain). Then wind the crank round and note the highest position of the piston on the DTI gauge. That position is then at TDC. You then need to bend your piece of wire coathanger around a bolt, and bolt it to the block. You then need to bend the wire to point to the TDC mark on the Timing Wheel.

There is a certain amount of "Dwell" on a Crankshaft (where the piston is at the top of it's stroke) and that can be seen when you're using a timing disc. If you CAREFULLY rotate the crankshaft, you will notice that you can rotate the crank maybe a couple of degrees without it moving the DTI? Well that's the dwell. You need to make sure you notice where the dwell starts, and where it stops (measured in degrees on the Timing Disc). The middle of these two positions is TRUE TDC. When you find this middle position, again tweak your bit of wire to point to TDC on the Timing Disc.

Now it's time to set the Camshaft Timing. Remove the DTI gauge from measuring the head of the piston, and adjust it to measure the top of the camshaft Follower on the Inlet Valve of piston #1 (second Follower from Timing Chain). I imagine this will be a little bit tricky so would welcome some suggestions from other members here on what to use to make obtaining that measurement easier? A small metal block for example?

Anyway, as soon as you have your Camshaft Follower measurement set, you can rotate the crankshaft to find the point at which the camshaft follower will come no higher (ie you're at the top of the cam). You now need to notice the measurement on the DTI gauge and write this down. (Say it's 8.1 for example).

Next comes the part where everything starts to make sense....! Turn the engine back to the TDC position and then look in the leaflet that came with your cam to get the correct timing position in degrees (say it's 112 ATDC - After Top Dead Centre). Now rotate the engine CLOCKWISE until you get to that position (112 degrees).

Now you need to undo the bolts which give you the adjustment on the vernier pully and rotate the camshaft independantally to the crankshaft (making sure you don't turn the camshaft from TDC) until you find the highest position of the camshaft follower again (remember in this example we measured it to be 8.1).

Then tighten everything up and you're timed!!!!! Check everything a couple of times to make sure you're right and adjust where necessary. (Rotate the engine a couple of turns and then find 112 ATDC and make sure you still have the 8.1 on the dti)

Sorted.

You then need to get a hammer, and get EVIL on the timing chain cover to give yourself clearance.

that's a great write up steve

[Trevhib]

Steve/Ian, save that and put it in the articles section pls.

EDIT - great write up Steve

[Scoff]

Good but I'd add that there can be a 5 deg or so spread on the cam which will read max lift.

You really need to time it up the best you can, wind the engine back 30 deg or so then slowly wind it forward (clockwise, removing the slack from the chain) and keep going slowly until you see your max lift reading. At this point make a note of the angle on the crank. Keep winding forward slowly and you'll notice the DTI remains the same for a short period. At the moment it starts to drop again make another note of the crank angle. The real peak lift angle will be the average of the 2 points. So for example if the initial peak came up at 110 and it started to fall again at 114 then you can say the peak is 112. Adjust and repeat a few times until you're happy.

[Nottswoody]

Cheers guys my dti came today so will be on this agin tomorrow night and I'm not going to bed till its done

[R5MJH]

Cheers guys my dti came today so will be on this agin tomorrow night and I'm not going to bed till its done

ur in for a late one then

[Nottswoody]

ur in for a late one then

Really is it that bad? Aghhhhh man it didn't even come with instructions lol..

[R5MJH]

Really is it that bad? Aghhhhh man it didn't even come with instructions lol..

it can be, get true tdc first then set cam timimg

[Nottswoody]

it can be, get true tdc first then set cam timimg

It's a shame the needle on the gauge isn't long enough to get right into the cam.. I'm sure it will work out.. My confidence is low in this though lol oh ekk but I guess it will work out one way or another

[R5MJH]

It's a shame the needle on the gauge isn't long enough to get right into the cam.. I'm sure it will work out.. My confidence is low in this though lol oh ekk but I guess it will work out one way or another

find true tdc first then either put a push rod in no1 inlet (fw end) connect to dti and set at highest point of lift, i did mine with the head on so different i set up all tappets then removed standand tappet bolt then made a homemade bolt to fit in tappet to dti gauge and off ya go mate

[R5MJH]

sorry paul get on youtube theres some videos on there on different engine but method is the same

james5 has youtube link pm him

[Nottswoody]

Heads done skimmed reseated decoked all for £50 bargin can't praise this guy enough

[Nad-5GTT]

Bargain

[Nottswoody]

Heads done skimmed reseated decoked all for £50 bargin can't praise this guy enough

Purely out of interest what's the going rate for this kida work? What's the difference in areas?

[Nottswoody]

Right I'm really confused I'm doing the cam hight and on the dti its only showing 5.8 as the highest point? Is it me doing this wrong?

[R5MJH]

Right I'm really confused I'm doing the cam hight and on the dti its only showing 5.8 as the highest point? Is it me doing this wrong?

did you find true tdc first

[Nottswoody]

Yes mate found that no probs put the standard wheel on lighted them up the put the vernier on turned it around untill I got the 5.8 on the dti.. Called it quits I know when I'm beat a good member has said he will come over and help us.. Top man

[R5MJH]

Yes mate found that no probs put the standard wheel on lighted them up the put the vernier on turned it around untill I got the 5.8 on the dti.. Called it quits I know when I'm beat a good member has said he will come over and help us.. Top man

tbh mate its not easy to do i worked in a garage for many years so have the technical knowledge it still took time for me hopefully rtoc matey can sort for ya then boss

[gttjames]

Purely out of interest what's the going rate for this kida work? What's the difference in areas?

well when i had a head checked 7months ago in cambridge is cost me £40 just for a pressure check...

[Scoff]

5.8mm sounds about right for a piper 270 or similar. You're measuring cam lift. The rocker has a ratio of 1.5:1 so you'll have cam lift x 1.5:1 at the valve (7.8mm)

[Nottswoody]

Back in the garage tomorrow thanks to thundercat its timed at 112 degrees its hard to find the time to crack on with it.. By the end of tomorrow I want the liners resat (ones sitting up to much I need to swop two around better I doit now not later.. Sump on then head on hopefully set it up aswell early night for me I think.. Thank f3ck its warmed up a bit too

[Matt Cole]

I would maybe allow for half a deg or so for the new chain also.

[Nottswoody]

Gutted was flying today cam covers back on after knocking it about to make the vernier fit. Sumps on and all sealed and tight. Went to start putting the head back on and I haven't got any head bolt washes it's because I'm making it up from different parts but I will get some from work.. It's nearly there now just got to explain to her indoors I need another day onit

[Tim B]

Gutted was flying today cam covers back on after knocking it about to make the vernier fit. Sumps on and all sealed and tight. Went to start putting the head back on and I haven't got any head bolt washes it's because I'm making it up from different parts but I will get some from work.. It's nearly there now just got to explain to her indoors I need another day onit

My misses just committed, dream on mate. (They just don't understand)

[Nottswoody]

My misses just committed, dream on mate. (They just don't understand)

Dose that mean your mrs has heard it all before? And were never nearly there

I haven't even finished this and I'm already thinking "if this gets me close to 200bhp then what's next to get me to 250 I get bored very quickly I was thinking with the engine i take out of mine what could I do to that one? Answers below please

[Tim B]

Dose that mean your mrs has heard it all before? And were never nearly there

Yep you got it . Have fun with the rest of the rebuild.

[GTphil]

You will want to make sure the headbolt washers are the proper thick cast washers and not weak skinny ones.

[Nottswoody]

You will want to make sure the headbolt washers are the proper thick cast washers and not weak skinny ones.

will do I have one from a spare off my current engine to size up I just really don't want to break the one in the car as I have plans for that

[Nottswoody]

New waterpump orderd as I don't want to break my current engine. Hopefully get the head on and completed as thundercat again came to the rescue with headbolt washes really isn't enough hrs in the day from working and being a dad plus were back trying for a baby its a hard job but fun.. So guys what should I set my valve clearences at? I think this ep cam sounds like a 270 cam just from reading the measurements.. But what do I know.. It's all new to me

[Nottswoody]

New waterpump orderd as I don't want to break my current engine. Hopefully get the head on and completed as thundercat again came to the rescue with headbolt washes really isn't enough hrs in the day from working and being a dad plus were back trying for a baby its a hard job but fun.. So guys what should I set my valve clearences at? I think this ep cam sounds like a 270 cam just from reading the measurements.. But what do I know.. It's all new to me

What valve clearance would you guys say is best?

[Jonny5]

20/20

[gttjames]

If its a piper 270 - 25/30 as per piper website
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams...n=19&engine=57

[Nottswoody]

If its a piper 270 - 25/30 as per piper website
http://www.pipercams.co.uk/pipercams...n=19&engine=57

It's an ep Motorsport cam bud but the measurements are close to a 270 I think not to sure really I guess there's only one way to find out from what we measured and set it to 112 degrees perhaps its closer to a285

[Nottswoody]

Engines done I hope just need to get some holidays off and fit it now.. One question when I turn it over by hand you can hear air tighten then release slowly is that normal? Call it paranoid but iv never done this before hope it works out..

[R5MJH]

Engines done I hope just need to get some holidays off and fit it now.. One question when I turn it over by hand you can hear air tighten then release slowly is that normal? Call it paranoid but iv never done this before hope it works out..

sounds right, its got some compression then lol

[GT Josh]

yes thats right

[R5MJH]

sounds right, its got some compression then lol

forgot comp test once up and runing your looking for 145/150 psi per piston

[Nottswoody]

Phew.... Hey I said I was new you all know what it's like the first time well some of you do.. don't remember my old engine making these noises lol