Twingo 172 turbo

So it looks like I'm going ahead with the turbo build so I thought I'd start a new thread, for completeness the 172 swap is here : https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=5149

I'm looking for a low boost standard compression build the type we've seen many times before, using a cast manifold, and the GT28R I used to do the 11.5x second 120mph runs in 2005 :eek:

There isn't much space up front in the Twingo and I didn't think I could get an intercooler in and would have to use a charge cooler, but even with a CC there is a lot of stuff to find homes for. Anyway, a look on Ebay and a quick measure brought up a bar and plate intercooler 550x140x65 complete with a bunch of pipes, hoses, and clips, what's not to like?:scratch:

Anyone who knows me knows that I like to measure stuff, intercoolers and pipes need to be measured.

The box of bits turned up today, and at first glance it all looks reasonable for the money, the pipes have swaged ends and mandrel bends.

First bit of bad news is that the hoses are 60mm ID and the pipes 57mm OD, they don't have much chance of sealing, I'll point this out to the seller, but whatever happens I won't use them.

On to the testing, but first some numbers - please point out any errors I make.... My best guess is that to make 230hp the engine will be pumping about 300CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air. That's a rough number but it shouldn't be massively out. A good intercooler will have less than 1psi pressure drop across it, but I believe that anything under 2psi will be fine.

** not bad, all imperial units so far, I have a nasty habit of mixing them**

***apart from the IC dimensions that is***

My flow bench https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=17946

now Henry is a smart chap, and when it comes to dust and crap he can hold his head high, he struggles a bit with flow testing big pipes so the accuracy isn't as good, but he still does OK.

I put a 172 throttle body on the bench first to get a feel for things, I get ~310CFM at 10" H2O. Now, without trying to teach granny about eggs I should explain how this CFM number differs from the 300CFM engine flow I mentioned earlier. On first view one might see that 310 was bigger than 300 and thus all is good in the world. All is good in the world, but not for that reason. The 300CFM engine flow is the amount of air the engine will be pumping at full power. The flow test for the throttle says that when it is flowing 310CFM there will be 10" H2O (0.36psi) pressure drop across it. This is fine.

The next thing I tested was one of the 600mm long 2.25" pipes, it flowed 240CFM @10", adding a second one dropped that flow to nearer 220CFM. I then tried a single 90deg bend of the same 600mm length, it showed ~235CFM. Nothing wrong with those bends. If a full pipe flowed 200CFM it'd have a pressure drop around 0.8psi at full power, seems Ok to me.

The final thing to test was the intercooler, I was quite casual doing the test, the 57CFM was a shock. If my measurement is correct, and my maths is right that'll have something like a 10psi drop across it at full power. This is where I start getting nervous, surely that can't be right????

A quick look around the internet fails to confirm my findings, in fact, most results seem more like I'd expect.

I did however find this http://www.myaudis4.com/amd-ic-flow-test/ note that he tests at 28"H2O, so you have to multiply my results by 1.67 to compare.

I'm not sure where to go from here, it seems madness to use the intercooler if it is that bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to test it on the car??

:coffee:

You're surprised at that much p.drop from an Ebay intercooler? Chinese special per chance? :D

You going for a generic Fastchip map?

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Originally Posted by Mart

You're surprised at that much p.drop from an Ebay intercooler? Chinese special per chance? :D

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yep I am surprised, have you seen reports that back this up?

not sure on map, I have a stand alone sat here doing nothing:confused:

Only from what the chaps on MLR found when testing a batch of intercoolers. The Toyosports & Autobahn88 faired worse by far, iirc.

However, I don't believe all that I read on the 'net, and it was the MLR after all - That in itself is the definition of taking everything read with a pinch of salt.

Is that the Autronic unit off the 5? You given up with that then?

Andy really good to see you're highly technical input back on here. I've no idea what it all means, but really good to see again.

I have long wondered about how to see how good an intercooler is working, so I should be able to follow this and hopefully pick your brains along the way.:agree::agree:

There was a very nice twingo in Belgium this year - can anyone remember who it was that had this. Seemed like a very clever chap also. Might be on the FB side of things.

What's 28 h2o and 10 h20 btw?

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Originally Posted by TNT ANDY

What's 28 h2o and 10 h20 btw?

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ahh, good question, it's a manometer reading; 10 inches of water

10" H2O ~0.36psi
28" H2O ~1psi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mart

Only from what the chaps on MLR found when testing a batch of intercoolers. The Toyosports & Autobahn88 faired worse by far, iirc.

However, I don't believe all that I read on the 'net, and it was the MLR after all - That in itself is the definition of taking everything read with a pinch of salt.

Is that the Autronic unit off the 5? You given up with that then?

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I don't suppose you could find a link, I'd like to read that.

The 5 is still on the back burner, but if it comes back it'll probably have a Motec.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

ahh, good question, it's a manometer reading; 10 inches of water

10" H2O ~0.36psi
28" H2O ~1psi

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:agree::agree::agree:

Many thanks - no egg sucking here!

First thing about this testing, it says nothing about how well it cools, just how well it flows, on my simple test a 30mm pipe would be better than this IC, clearly it wouldn't be as it wouldn't cool as well... That said, if there really is a 10psi drop there is so much extra heat to cool that the pipe may well work better...

OK, some more digging.

everyone uses a different test method, it's a PITA :D

anyway, the WWW suggests an engine will flow 1.5CFM per HP, so my 230hp target would be 345CFM, more than my 300 estimate, but I'm going to stick with 300.

Spearco rate their cores at a 1.5psi pressure drop as they believe that to be a sensible working range, I agree, I'd take that on the Twingo.

Bell Intercoolers http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pag...omAirCore.html make all sorts of cores and list their flows at a 1psi drop, they helpfully make a 2.25" x 5.5" x 22" core, slightly thinner than my ebay special. They rate it as 238CFM. This needs comparing to my test.

238CFM @1psi ~ 142CFM @the 10"H2O that I work with.

or 1.6 psi pressure drop in my theoretical engine, I'd be happy with that.

if we use the Spearco method, and my figures for the cheapy are correct it's 57CFM makes it rated at 77hp :laugh:

Surely that can't be right:scratch:

OK, sanity check time.

I've just tried a GTiR intercooler, it was a rough check but I got 68CFM which would be a 7psi drop on my fictional engine. That can't be right, so it must be something I'm doing wrong. Probably linked with Henry not having enough beans.

I'm going to have a look around at work, I might be able to find something more representative to test on. Sadly the guy I need to speak to has just gone on holiday:crap:

was going to suggest testing some others, got an oe gtt cooler? ive used decent sized cheap coolers many times in the past with no issues, i think my 200 sx one measured 2-3psi drop on the gauge while driving, plumbed before and after just for testing. nothing as technical as your doing.

with the hoover though are you using it to suck through? when boosted its forced through if that makes a difference?

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Originally Posted by TNT ANDY

Andy really good to see you're highly technical input back on here. I've no idea what it all means, but really good to see again.

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:agree::agree::agree: :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Adey aka Ewok

was going to suggest testing some others, got an oe gtt cooler? ive used decent sized cheap coolers many times in the past with no issues, i think my 200 sx one measured 2-3psi drop on the gauge while driving, plumbed before and after just for testing. nothing as technical as your doing.

with the hoover though are you using it to suck through? when boosted its forced through if that makes a difference?

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it doesn't matter if it sucks or blows, just that it's moving in the same direction. However if you want to test it under full conditions, ie with real flow and pressure you'd need to blow as you're not going to be able to suck more than an atmosphere.

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Originally Posted by Big Steve - Raider

:agree::agree::agree: :laugh:

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I don't know what he's worried about, I'm spouting this **** and I don't know what I'm on about :D

Great project mate, little sleeper!

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Originally Posted by TNT ANDY

There was a very nice twingo in Belgium this year - can anyone remember who it was that had this. Seemed like a very clever chap also. Might be on the FB side of things.

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That's my mate Jankees with a clio 3 1.2 tce engine in the bay.
I'm not sure if he signed up here or not, told him to do so!

at the risk of making an even bigger tit of myself :ashamed:

I've been trying to think why the results I'm getting seem so low, this is my best guess. Poor Henry can't flow anything like what an F4R can, so with the IC barely being stretched maybe only some of the paths are being used, after all there are 7 parallel paths to choose from.

A traditional flow bench has a lot more power, such that the test is performed at the chosen test pressure (10" H2O in my case) and valves are opened to set this before taking a measurement. Henry does what he does and I correct to 10" mathematically, at low flow he has more than 10" and at high flow much less.

I repeated the test to check what pressure I actually had across the cooler, it was 2.7", quite a bit less than the 277" my calculated 10psi would be, and quite a bit less than the 50" I'd realistically expect to see.

My solution was to tape up all but one of the channels to both force the air to flow a particular way, and also to increase the test pressure. Doing this I measured 12CFM (at a corrected 10" H2O) for one channel with an actual test pressure of 24" H2O, so probably more realistic. I managed to test a different 2 channels together and got 24CFM@10", twice what I saw from one. This gives a total flow for the intercooler of 84CFM@10".

What this does is drop my previous estimate of a 10psi drop across the cooler to an improved 4.6psi. Much better, but still not what I'd hope for.

This IC is 140mm tall, and has 7 channels, the next size up is 180mm and has 9 channels, if my measurements and sums (a big if) are correct that chap will flow 108CFM@10" and have a pressure drop of 2.8psi. Next seems to be 225mm with 12 channels, so 144CFM@10" with 1.6psi drop.

My gut feeling is that these bar and plate intercoolers will cool well, the turbulators look good, but I'm easily fooled by looks. If I had the space I'd want one with more rows and less length for this low boost application.

Take all this with a pinch of salt, real testing may prove me completely wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tutuur

Great project mate, little sleeper!



That's my mate Jankees with a clio 3 1.2 tce engine in the bay.
I'm not sure if he signed up here or not, told him to do so!

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Ahhhh Jankees - that's the chap - very nice Twingo complete with tablet shenanigans.

Cheers Tutuur:agree:

Love the cogitating Andy :agree:

Enough cogitating, it's time I got oily :laugh:

OK, one final cogitate... clutches... mine had died, hence me taking the engine out, and all this madness beginning. But what to fit. Standard should be OK at low boost, but I don't want to fit an unknown. A quick look on Ebay offers no-name clutches, 'uprated' clutches, and Luk. A look on CS shows those that swear by Luk, and those who swear at them. Looking on Ebay I couldn't find 2 Luk clutches that looked the same. Anyway, I went Valeo, we know and love Valeo in the 5 world, and even though I never had any joy with them in my 5 they're a known quantity.

So, I pulled the engine out this morning before the rain came, and got the engine under cover.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build1.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build3.jpg

first job was to pull off the gearbox and have a look at the clutch
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build4.jpg
hmm, lots of clutch fluff, the fingers all distorted, and oh joy, it's a Valeo, dated 08, so it wasn't that old when I built the car. I hope this isn't a sign :cry: I remember looking at the clutch before I fitted the engine, it looked perfect then.

anyway, cover off:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build5.jpg
nice, not hugely worn, but exploded. Fortunately the flywheel face looks fine. I pulled the flywheel off and the crank seal also looks fine.

It seems I might have been a bit hasty, the clutch has CIS written on it, so although the metal parts are stamped Valeo it's been 'remanufactured' I'm feeling a bit happier as I've bought a genuine green box valeo kit:smokin:

The connoisseurs amongst you will know that this next bit is a dumy build to check for clearance and fit, and not my excitement getting the better of me :scared:

I lifted the engine up onto the stand, OK, I used my crane. To think that I used to use bocks of wood and build things on the floor before I had all these toys. I must have been keen back then :D

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build6.jpg

the cast manifold fits anyway..

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build7.jpg
and so does the GT2860R turbo. That there is Renault 5 history, in 2005 in propelled me down the strip in 11.58@120mph, the first 5 in the 11s, it also helped me win both the Leaders (National) and Midland Hillclimb championships, amongst other accolades it was the fastest Saloon of the Year up Loton Park, outright, that's quicker than the Evos and everything :D I suspect it's retirement to be a little less frantic. Anything over 110mph traps will be fine;)

Time for a plug, I decided on the Engine Dynamics downpipe with the V band. It's tight to work on the Twingo under the windscreen, so I liked the idea of being able to assemble the turbo off the car, then just join up with a single fixing. Also, anyone who's removed a cat on a PH1 172 with know about the pissy little bolt/spring things you have to remove, they are a bugger to get to on the Twingo, so the idea of being able to drop the cat down to get access to them really appealed.

Anyway, I made contact with Andy at Engine Dynamics, and asked about a cheeky club discount (actually, I couldn't care less about you lot, I wanted a discount for me :cooter:). This is the plug, if you fancy doing a low boost clio sport turbo conversion, before you do anything else register on his site using the discount code we have in our contacts, you won't be disappointed.

Anyway, I need to do a bit more, I need to pull the cams out and refit my standard ones.

Was the 11.58 the day of 500 point turns?

Nicely done :)

Steam clean the bay and brush over areas of surface rust? Maybe? No? :D

Looks like the new mani and turbo set-up doesn't hang back any further than the original manifold. It's just that it's higher up. I guess that will mean some bulkhead hammer? :smashpc:

clean it? good God man it's hardly been washed sine the day I bought it :laugh:

That said, I could do with brushing something over the rusty bits? Without it turning into an epic, any suggestions what to use? I guess it wants some king of stabiliser and coating?

I'm pretty sure it'll fit without any hammering. (where's that famous last words icon?)

Using a log manifold?

Shopping at a tuners?

My, how people change ;)

:D

Cool project!

Is the turbo you're using a GT2560r (GT28r), or the larger GT2860RS?

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Originally Posted by Lee-H

Cool project!

Is the turbo you're using a GT2560r (GT28r), or the larger GT2860RS?

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the smaller one, I'm only looking at 0.5bar boost, if I was going for more I'd be talking to Scoff about a VW box and using a fancier manifold.

Mart - I've saved about £1500 over what the same stuff cost me for the 5, and so far I'm about 3 years ahead :D. Really it's a case of day to day reliability, the log wins there on more than one count.

Bit of a roadtrip on Monday to see if I can get my Gripper diff rebuilt with a more sensible final drive, it's about 4.8:1 at the moment, and I'd like something more like a 3.44, we'll see...

Anyway cams are out, and I've got to stop now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

clean it? good God man it's hardly been washed sine the day I bought it :laugh:

That said, I could do with brushing something over the rusty bits? Without it turning into an epic, any suggestions what to use? I guess it wants some king of stabiliser and coating?

I'm pretty sure it'll fit without any hammering. (where's that famous last words icon?)

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These guys do some really good stuff that I have use on my own project

http://www.rust.co.uk/products/categ...ust-converter/

Fe-123 is a good rust converter once you have removed the surface stuff with a wire wheel, then maybe brush the epoxy mastic over the top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

clean it? good God man it's hardly been washed sine the day I bought it :laugh:

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Yeah, I know, stupid question but I saw it and was compelled to type :wasntme:

not washed it yet...

I went to the stealers this morning to order a few bits and bobs and pick up a new dephaser solenoid seal.

Anyway, rumpety rumpety cams out - the neighbour will be pleased, they shook her house on idle :ashamed: belts off.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build8.jpg

and standard cams back in and belt back on. Drain the oil
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/build9.jpg

fit a shiny new set of Megane 225 plugs, first time I've bought plugs for it :cool:
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...bo/build10.jpg

spin her over and remove the sump ready for drilling out the turbo oil drain. That's all for now, I don't have the right drill and tap. I like modern engines, this one has about 85K on it and no sign of any blackness or sludge.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...bo/build11.jpg

If it's dry tomorrow I'll pop the front back on the car and have a look at the intercooler.

something thats not being looked into on cliosport that ive seen, but, the later f block volvo turbos ran a 215mm clutch. i used the cover plate with a helix 4 puk back when i wrote of a clutch in my old itb clio about 7 years ago. it needs a few holes enlarged but they all line up.

What size drill and tap do you need?

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Originally Posted by rs250nut

What size drill and tap do you need?

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3/8BSP, I should be able to borrow one from work :)

andy.
nice build. can i ask what the reg is. only ask as my mate had one in that colour and it would be nice to see if it is his old one. ended in lgy if i remember correctly

What cams did you take out andrew?

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Originally Posted by royz

andy.
nice build. can i ask what the reg is. only ask as my mate had one in that colour and it would be nice to see if it is his old one. ended in lgy if i remember correctly

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ends AVC, funnily enough it's long lost twin was on Ebay recently, only 2 out which is pretty odd for a Spanish Import

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt Cole

What cams did you take out andrew?

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ED cams, they're quite fruity. Exhaust is very close to (but not the same as) a 197 and the inlet is slightly longer duration than the 197. I've plotted them, so can give you numbers if you're interested.

I'm curious too mate, could you make a thread with the plots? Or upload them onto your profile/articles section?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

ED cams, they're quite fruity. Exhaust is very close to (but not the same as) a 197 and the inlet is slightly longer duration than the 197. I've plotted them, so can give you numbers if you're interested.

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Any good for a heavily boosted Meg 225 engine? Ive been looking at suitable cams for ages as i think the standard cams will struggle with a lot of boost.:agree:

I think they'd work well on your big twin scroll, I can give you the rough timings at 1mm lift which you should be able to compare with Kelfords for an EVO. I can give them in their normal running position ie dephaser activated (I think that's 16 deg). One thing to note, that these cams open the valves simultaneously whereas the standard ones and CatCams are staggered, so the 2 inlet valves in a cylinder are timed 2deg differently, as are the exhausts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

I think they'd work well on your big twin scroll, I can give you the rough timings at 1mm lift which you should be able to compare with Kelfords for an EVO. I can give them in their normal running position ie dephaser activated (I think that's 16 deg). One thing to note, that these cams open the valves simultaneously whereas the standard ones and CatCams are staggered, so the 2 inlet valves in a cylinder are timed 2deg differently, as are the exhausts.

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Andy pm so I dont spam your thread!:agree:

well, it rained and I had a cold so I didn't look at pipes.

I was up at 5 this morning to take my gearboxes to Worcester for 6:30 and get back in time to go to work...

The one box has a gripper diff that I fitted in the 5 and blew up after a heady 14 miles, it's a bag a zeroes, and has been since I chucked it in the back of my garage in 2006. I can now face looking at it again. Sadly it has something like a 4.6 or 4.8:1 final drive, so no use for the Twingo. That box is being stripped and will either be rebuilt with a more suitable final drive (I'm thinking of a 3.73:1, any comments?) and a more road orientated diff setting. If the box is mush but the diff OK it'll get fitted into the 172 box out of the Twingo with a final drive change. If the whole thing is mush I'll drop it into the skip and bring back my 172 box as it is (or with a final drive change, or, or....)

I've managed to borrow a suitable tap, so maybe I'll get the drain fitted and the sump back on tonight.

That's dedication

no word on my gearboxes yet.

I finally got the engine block drilled and tapped for the oil drain, the drain is in, and the sump back on with a new seal.

I've been a bit slack on the Twingo front but I have now finally bolted the manifold and turbo in place.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...ke/build12.jpg

I ended up matching the manifold to the head, for some reason it looks like I have a PH1 head on my PH2 engine, so the exhaust ports are bigger. The casting is a bit all over the shop so I got my grinder out, I doubt it makes any difference but it made me feel better. I don't know what the manifold is made of but it's tough stuff...

You'll note that I'm taking the intercooler pipe off in an unusual direction, being LHD I don't have a servo in the way in that direction and there is space between the cam cover and inner arch to slip the pipe through. I'm going to chop the bend down a bit, it's sat a bit high for my liking.

I heard back about my gearbox today, the box with the gripper had properly shat itself, and does indeed contain nothing of use... except for the diff, apparently that survived. The expensive low ratio crown wheel and pinion are apparently usable, but not to me I want a more normal final drive for the Twingo. I think the gearbox guy (Agency Transmissions, Worcester) was surprised at the extent of the damage, but couldn't guess what had caused it. Oh yeah, the case had split too :laugh:

Anyway, the box out of the Twingo was much better, actually I was surprised at the number of parts required that he listed out, the box felt fine to me in use :ashamed: . Anyway, the gripper should be going in with a 3.73 final drive if he can find one. Just after he'd told me that the 4.07 was an excellent road diff I told him I wanted to change it :laugh: He'll need to machine the crownwheel off another diff and drill suitable holes for it to be of use.

antiroll bars, the original Twingo like mine had none, some of the later ones had a front bar of the bent paperclip variety. I'd thought that none of them had a rear bar, but I've just learnt that some had a bar welded inside the rear beam.

I'd like some anti-rollbars.

The 'standard' front one looks like this:

Right front with the engine out
http://pics.twingotuningforum.de/pic...185322-obp.jpg

left
http://pics.twingotuningforum.de/pic...185458-ZsY.jpg

different car, front under the front wheel arch. note the add on mounting bracket that fits over the engine mount, the right is similar. Also note the drop links that attach to the damper
http://pics.twingotuningforum.de/pic...185626-41l.jpg

and finally from the front with the bumper off
http://pics.twingotuningforum.de/pic...185821-J5Y.jpg


Ok, so I had a look on ebay to see about buying the bits, of course they're available over the water, but not here. I did however spot a Twingo 133 bar off a later car for sale

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/s...rbo/133bar.jpg
it looked sort of similar so I bought it... it's 21mm dia, so about right. I also bought a pair of standard drop links. I have no idea whether it'll fit, but I'll wave it around under the car once the engine is back in to see if it goes:sad2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

I'll wave it around under the car once the engine is back in to see if it goes:sad2:

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http://www.ponyexpress1.com/files/waving_smiley.gif

small but good progress mate! the 133 stabilizer looks like something i could probably use in the future :)