EFI for Doris

I have started a new thread for updates on this project.
Story to date
With the new head from Prima racing bigger turbo and new standard compression pistons Doris produced 230 bhp at 19psi. The turbo is good for more pressure but the engine was emptying the carb faster than the fuel system could fill it and she started to lean out.

I have purchased twin motorbike throttle bodies from a Yamaha E6 600 my pit crew has made a inlet manifold with 2 inlet ports served by each throttle body.
The pit crew has also made a swirl pot to go around the fuel sender which required me to cut out a baffle in the fuel tank.
I have designed and the pit crew are fabricating a plenum chamber from aluminium, and finally I have just ordered a pair of Black Ops 1000 cc EAT 287 compatible injectors from fiveomotorsports in California.

https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/suzu...-eat287-eat286

Still on the job list; pressure test the new manifold, sort out a fuel rail, pressure regulator and high pressure pump. A level indicator in the reserve tank. The throttle cable.

Paint.

Things are getting exciting.

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...20complete.jpg

Russell,

Can't wait to see the finished job especially and hp increases from the efi and tb's. Hopefully you will do a power run at the same boost to see the difference.;)

I will be blunt, but I'm not convinced with that manifold?:eek: it's certainly not the prettiest thing I've ever seen. I guess the proof will be in the pudding and I'll get my spoon ready!:wasntme:

You could well be right Matt. It should flow and mix I just hope each cylinder is equally served, there is a potential for the outer ones to run lean. I can try a infra red thermometer on the exhaust manifold or a cooking thermometer might show up a issue. We have to get it to run first!

R

Hi Russell, I don't want to sound overly negative or excessively critical, and it's sometimes somewhat interesting when people do an EFI conversion to their carb'd five. And perhaps that photo is not representative of what is going on there, but from that it looks like it shouldn't flow! There can be a fair bit of engineering to this task to optimise it, and from that it looks like none has been applied?

There have been / should be so many photos of EFI conversions around to have a look at. A few with 5GTT C1J's. philr5t 's one made maybe 330BHP from a single throttle body and a smoother looking manifold with no 90° bend in the middle.

That welding (brazing) on yours is terrible looking. Maybe it will grind off but should not be like that in the first place.

Have the people you're using ever done welding before? Or made and inlet manifold?

A few photos here: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.ph...ichael-tierney
philr5t photos seems to have disappeared.
Andrew Cooke photos seems to have disappeared.

Cheers Ian
You need a bit of swirl! besides nothing set in stone we can always have another go. It may leak like a sieve when we pressure test it. Your comments will go down well with the pit crew (especially Andy's co workers!)

Anyway a more pressing issue has arisen. Due to a misconception of how the reserve tank fed the main tank, with my swirl pot in place she ran out of fuel (with Andy driving and he had no phone so left to walk back to the garage). Heads been scratched and back to the drawing board.

Russell
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...wirl%20pot.jpg

http://inoxlineperformance.pagespers...oinjection.htm similar to Phils that was made by Big Jim Racing.
http://www.protoxide.eu/en/intake-ma...injection.html
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=176634
http://www.forum-auto.com/automobile...83958-1225.htm Scroll down a few posts.
http://www.mikadoracing.com/index.ph...nnonce=1763569
http://megbytes.free.fr/GTT/Titine/M...2/P1010738.JPG from http://megbytes.free.fr/GTT/Titine/M...2/P1010738.JPG

For an optimised setup you really need 4 ITBs joined together with a plenum or a plenum with a single TB on the end.

On an inlet manifold with a small volume you run the risk of unequal charge getting to each cylinder, as the the pressure in the inlet doesn't stay consistent.

What you have there, is effectively 2 inlet manifolds which are now of a Siamese port design. This isn't too much of an issue on a carb as you have a wet manifold setup, but on an EFI setup you can have serious issues with charge robbing between cylinders.

If you plan to run that inlet manifold, you really need to test it with an equal length exhaust manifold with a EGT sensor boss on sample tubes on both inner and outer cylinders to check the difference.

I have the same concerns Matty hence the comment about using an infrared thermometer. I wonder if you can get temperature sensitive paint. In medicine we use a tape that changes colour at a certain temperature to show that instruments have been correctly sterilised. I could put that on the exhaust runners. Thermocouples would be another idea.
I reckon that the induction strokes on the 2 pairs of cylinders follow each other so as long as the turbo can supply the air flow the second induction stroke should obtain the same air fuel as the second assuming the path into the cylinder is not unfavourable. We have connected the 2 sides so as to help equalise the pressures. Anyway as I keep saying we have to get her to run first.

The injectors arrived today
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%.../injectors.jpg
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...20details.jpeg

If I'm not confused, adjacent cylinders, will be sucking at the same time. One nearing the top of it's exhaust stoke and the scavenging sucking some initial air in during the overlap. And the adjacent one nearing the bottom of it's induction stroke, hence the robbing of air.

Or maybe that's one and three, etc. I can't think it through clearly just now.

Is it not that air is elastic and columns of it squeeze up behind a closed valve and burst through as the valve opens. A pulsing effect.

Pressure testing the inlet manifold with an air line to 40psi. All ok.

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...ure%20test.jpg

An infrared sensor will work if you can get one that goes high enough, mine goes to 300 degree C then won't read.

Exhaust temps will be around 600-800degrees I would think.

Ian with the firing order being 1342 or if you look at it 3421 3 and 4 and 2 and 1 is where you get the issues. When 2 opens the air is effectively static on that runner, so you get a momentary pause on air going into that cylinderswhilst fuel is being squirted in, so when 4 opens air is already flowing through that port (TB in this case) so you can end up with a leaner mixture on the second pot to take the air.

Depening on the runner efficiencies and lengths they can run more efficiently at different rpms. So you may get rich inners at low RPMs and leaners outers the opposite at higher rpm. With a single lambda reading taking the average, it doesn't give a true reading of what is going on with each cylinder. Tuning slightly on the rich side is a compromise to stop det but may sacrifice some power.

The new injectors fit with no need to modify the throttle body or the fuel rail, which is good.
I have renewed my insurance with HIC all modifications notified and EFI added but annual milage reduced from 10K to 5K with 1K on business use and my premium went from £402.30 to £275.00.
I have also renewed my motorsport licence £60.

By the way my speed event colleagues have been talking about Javelin speed events. They are run outside of the MSA and their motorsport licence is just £5 per event. The events are £139 but do include some classic circuits like Croft. Might be worth a look.

The finished inlet manifold

https://youtu.be/xlwBPscK5Nk

First trial fitting of the new inlet manifold with the TB's on Doris
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...20TB's.jpg

Plenum back from the welders
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...num%20done.jpg

Note my plenum is before the throttle butterflies not after it/them. Is that significant?

Looking all very good Russel. ;) when are you planning for mapping?

Plenum trial mounted. Throttle cable sorted. Next task is to relocate the coil pack, it just needs to n=be moved to the nearside a tad.

I will be contacting Scoff at EFI for info on the wiring of the air and water temp sensors and a base map to try and get her started.

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...%20mounted.jpg

That looks good. Plenty of volume which is always good. :agree:

We have hit a bit of a snag with my design.

Due to the siamesed ports and twin injectors with the 1342 firing pattern the injectors have unequal gaps between firing. If we batch fire (both injectors fire each TDC) the inner cylinders will get a lot more fuel than the outer ones.

Scoff has a cunning plan. Fingers crossed it works.

The way the mini boys get around it, is to run two different Fueling maps for the inner and outer cylinders, it takes a bit of setting up, but plenty running good numbers now. You'll have to run an additional cam sensor to get the timing in phase with the camshaft, rather than just the crank position.

Personally I would avoid batch fire, as that always seems a bit of a compromise, especially after all the effort that has gone into fitting the efi.

Could you get away with running it semi sequential and pairing the injecting together so the firing is more even?

:popcorn:

Could you get away with running it semi sequential and pairing the injecting together so the firing is more even?

Great minds think alike.. that is the cunning plan.

Utilising the dizzy as a cam position sensor.

The rivet on the arm is drilled out and the copper contact replaced with a small bolt. Its adjustable by turning the distributer on its shaft.

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...%20trigger.jpg

Start up is planned for Sunday The latest issue we have is that I couldn't get the ECU to talk to my laptop. In 2 days that has to work.

R :brickwall:

If you are running a comms port to USB adapter, some just don't work with ECUs, may be worth trying another one if that is the case. :agree:

It has worked previously always been a bit temperamental but by chance I have another serial port addapter I can try

If its them cheap Chinese ones forget them ever working correctly! I need a good quality one for my 420b. I just cant get it to work on a modern USB laptop!:crap:

My mistake. In the dark, wed night fiddling in the glove box I connected the 6 and 8 pin plugs the wrong way around. Connects to laptop now I just hope I havnt goosed the ECU.

:sad:

:scared:

She runs! Scoff got her running and I've driven to his unit and she is on the rollers as I type Quite a lot of pops and bangs at the moment

Any more news Russel? Dying to know the figures! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt Cole

Any more news Russel? Dying to know the figures! ;)

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Scoff spent today just getting her to work. Predictably some issues with the unusual set up. Fuel can pool in the inlet on idle causing coughs and splutters when you open the throttle. Also issues with enrichment on throttle opening. The first cylinder of the pair scoffs the lot leavin the second cylinder rich.

However she runs sweet throttle response a tad inconsistent but far from bad.

Anyway at 14 psi she produces 180 BHP and 171 lb/ft torque.

That's good numbers for the boost. :agree: have you got it to a point of being a nice drive?

Siamese inlet ports really don't lend themselves to EFI setups unfortunately.

Injector angles can play a big part also, but you will always get more power with individual inlet runners.

Scoff has worked his magic and she isn't half bad. I've booked to go back for a final shake down and to what she can do at race boost. If she can't beat 231 the soles is back (maybe)

If you can't beat the peak power figure it might not be the end of the world. You might get power curve or spool benefits that result in a quicker car (and perhaps be more reliable in terms of fuelling through the range)?

One big plus with the EFI this morning. 4 deg in the garage and instead of the endless cranking and pumping of the accelerator pump to get her going draining the poor battery in the process. Turn the key and bang she starts and doesn't stop at junctions. Its just like a modern car.

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trevhib

If you can't beat the peak power figure it might not be the end of the world. You might get power curve or spool benefits that result in a quicker car (and perhaps be more reliable in terms of fuelling through the range)?

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when i was running twin carbs with 2 manifolds the torque was higher and it came in quicker.......so you might have that to look forward to!!

A link to a short vid of Scoff starting to work his magic. I set him quite a challenge to get this odd system to work. This is very early days and she doesn't pop and bang like this now.

https://youtu.be/9Ct46Ds_iAI

Quote:

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Originally Posted by michael tierney

when i was running twin carbs with 2 manifolds the torque was higher and it came in quicker.......so you might have that to look forward to!!

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To be an effective sprint and hill climb car it's mid range torque that you want.

any figures yet??

ill post a low boost graph, that's all I have at the moment Scoff spent all day making her work.

As promised

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...rTorque@14.jpg

too small Russell

You've been talking to my wife!

I'll have another go

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...oris/Power.JPG

https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%.../PSI%20AFR.JPG

That's better :agree:

That's nice power and torque at that boost. I think with the right set-up (and increased boost), there'll no going back to carb.

Where is that boost reading taken from? Turbo, manifold or somewhere in the middle?

That's from the manifold

So when will we see full boost results Russel?

Ive booked to go back on the 19th Feb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussellT

Ive booked to go back on the 19th Feb

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I've put it in me calender!:D

is that on a T25 turbo?

The turbo is a A/R60 M24
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...5&d=1464897684
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...3&d=1465823314https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...3&d=1465823314

That looks Huge :smokin:

What size is the rear end of that then? .64?

Report from the rolling road

Scoff had just got into his stride he had her up to 223 bhp and 210 lb ft at 21 psi when we lost boost pressure. There was obviously a large leak in the boost circuit but we couldn't find it. The next customer arrived so I booked back in on the 5th March paid up and left for home.

The journey home was eventful as she started to really struggle on the motorway and I had to make a dash for the hard shoulder when I lost fuel pressure. I lost the brake servo so there was a clue where the leak was. By the time I reached home all sorts of weird pops and bangs back fires were going on and the idle raves were climbing.

On close inspection at home the throttle bodies had separated from the silicone hose joiners holding them onto the manifold. A wonder I got home really. Anyway a hours fiddling with some study jubilee clips and she is good to go again.

The only comment Scoff had was that the turbo spooled up much quicker.

Back to the pits tomorrow for some tweaking and look out for "Return to the Rolling Road" the sequel to come.

Brilliant update Russel. ;) that's decent power too! I bet you cant wait to let it rip on full boost!:D

Sounds good mate!!! The relatively easy fix to the boost loss was a bonus too! 👍

A taster on YouTube of an early low boost run before the pipework came apart.

Ironically I think it might have been our efforts to hold it all together that put a strain on the silicone pipe connectors.

https://youtu.be/ubRs3MB9gHA

Awesome. 220bhp 210lbs @ 21psi. I can't see you going back now.:cool:

To be honest Trevor she had 231 at 19psi on the carb however there is more to come Scoff didnt get to play with the timing and fueling to reach optimum power.

good power for mild boost. Hopefully when its all dialled in it drives and delivers its power well.
Good luck to you. :agree:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussellT

To be honest Trevor she had 231 at 19psi on the carb however there is more to come Scoff didnt get to play with the timing and fueling to reach optimum power.

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No doubt Russell. I think what I meant was, even after a couple of shakedowns this is already close enough to the old setup to ensure (I reckon), that you won't find yourself back on the carb. :agree: Not that I've got anything against the carb. I love it. I just think for your particular purposes EFI si the way forward.

Your right Trevor she feels like a beast start first pull in the cold so I'm hoping for some good news on the 5th. I was even worried that the engine would destroy the drive train. :laugh:

Another eventful day on the rollers. This time the fan belt was thrown off. Scoff put it back on but we called it a day. He had practically finished.

The final figures were 222.4 bhp @ the flywheel and 211.2 Ibft torque.

The graph is here
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...s/Power%20.JPG

The comparison with the Solex is here. The Solex is in BLACK
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%.../EFIvSolex.JPG

You can see there is more torque earlier on which is what I hopped for however ultimate power is down and that'a at a higher level of boost so somewhat disappointing.

Where as the carb was leaning out the EFI gives a very stable AFR.

So we have to fit a new fan belt Scoff had some tips to stop it coming off and I need to have a lip welded onto the throttle bodies to better locate the silicone hoses.

The first event for Doris the RenoYammy will be at Aintree on the 22nd April. That will be the real test (if its dry)

R

Looks like the experiment didn't really work then.

Considering that with the Big Jim Racing EFI inlet manifold on Phil Middletons Big Jim modified C1J, at Scoffs, was making over 300 BHP. I forget what the numbers were for your boost, all the pictures, graphs, data seem to have gone with the previous version of this site.

You probably need better shaped, shorter inlet runners to get the power. I presume being a medical GP you have sufficient money, so I don't know why you didn't just have some, many times tried and tested, Jenvey ITB's or something from someone who has proven credentials in this type of conversion for a track / hill climb / sprint car.

Good intel.

So there wasn't more to come after all. That's disappointing outcome, at least on paper. The graphs are very interesting. What a strange little blip at 2950-3300rpm that the carb makes which the EFI doesn't. Although EFI looks good 4000-4700 the headline from there on is simply weaker. I can only think it's due to the design of the inlet. I wonder if there's anything to be done in that respect.

Are you really liable to gain more power from simply running EFI though? More reliability and a smoother operation in general certainly, but more power, not necessarily!. What did Scoff mention? I guess its back to the drawing board to improve things, starting with the manifold I'd have to say. Why not contact our own Matt Rowley? He's making awesome looking inlet plenums/manifolds. :)

I'm not panicking she feels good on the road and from competition mid range torque is what you need. I'll see what happens in the real world.
On the carb she was leaning out dangerously, with the EFI, AFR are solid (I'll scan and post the graphs when I can)

I am pleased with the fuel set up having the swirl pot around the sender was asking for trouble and I got it but the fuel level in the swirl pot (registered by the standard fuel gauge ) is rock solid and I won't suffer fuel surge. I have just bought a fuel level sensor from a Chinese scooter to put into the tank and hopefully we will connect it up to the standard gauge and calibrate it and that will complete the fuel system.

Ian where is the fun in following the crowd? As you say I'm a medical doctor and I'm glad I made you happy. :cool:

What would be interesting would be to do a flow bench test of the standard inlet and your EFI one. That would at least rule out whether it is the new inlet causing the top end power to drop off? Maybe you have reached peak flow top end?

If you have less power for the same boost, then it has to be either pressure drop or IATs higher. If the AFRs are good. We're the boost pressure taken at the same place for both carb and EFI?

With EFI you should always gain a little as you can afford to be a bit on the leaner side (closer to 12.5AFR) as you know all cylinders are getting equal fuelling and need less of a safety margin. That is what I have found, if it is tuned to the same AFRs as the carb, then little will be gained by just adding the EFI alone.

At least no Pistons were melted are any other serious mishaps so certainly a good stepping stone. :agree:

Here is the comparison of boost and AFR for the Solex and the Yamaha TB's. You can see how boost builds earlier and faster with the TB's and the AFR is rock steady where the Solex leans out at the top end.
https://www.rtoc.org/files/Technical%...s/BoostAFR.JPG

Try fitting a partial baffle inside the plenum to divert the airflow towards each port, and put a radius on all of the inlets and outlets. You may find some more top end where air speed is higher with a baffle inside. A friend of mine did some flow bench tests on his inlet manifold which was a two into one design, and by fitting a partial baffle he went from 200CFM to around 320CFM. And gained more revs before power dropped off with less boost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussellT

Ian where is the fun in following the crowd?

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I expected the fun would be in leading the crowd due to a slightly faster lap time. :)

The boost pressure has been measured differently. For the solex it was taken fro the pipe to tthe MAP sensor so below the throttle butterfly and for the EFI it was taken from the fuel pressure regulator so off the plenum above the throttle butterfly. That would account at least some of the difference in the two plots of boost pressure.

Thanks for the info Matt that's a big change, we have trumpeted the plenum outlets and the curved design of the top of the plenum was hoped to guide the air towards them.

I nearly asked if the boost had been measured from the same place before/after.

It's going to be interesting to see what the comparative lap times look like and how it 'feels'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matty

Try fitting a partial baffle inside the plenum to divert the airflow towards each port,

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Is that the equivalent of replacing the plenum with longer pipes? So at WOT there's a longer fast moving column of air rushing toward each inlet valve and building up some pressure until the valve opens? Rather that a reservoir or slow and swirling lower pressure air waiting to be suctioned into the next opening chamber?

The baffle is a way of helping direct the air, and reduce divide up the area where the air can become turbulent, but also not shrouding the ports too much so they can take the air they need without bias. It is not ideal, but worth doing if the plenum I'd going to stay the same shape. A tapered design plenum helps with keeping air speed up, so for optimising everything that is really the only way to go.

IT wouldn't effect the torque like if you were to add a length of pipe in there with a big trumpet on the end say.

Don't you think that a smaller turbo would better fit your mid range torque needs?
I've tried several one. This curve seems like a T25 which only gets alive after 4.000 - 4.500.
My best results so far are with the GT2056 which is more like the T2 and gives full boost much earlier.

i have to agree.Jim...I've gone back to a T2 on my GT with Efi and its much more responsive!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by michael tierney

i have to agree.Jim...I've gone back to a T2 on my GT with Efi and its much more responsive!

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The turbo I'm using is from an Iveco Daily i think. I've bought it used. And it bolts on straight to the exhaus mani from the engine.
The response is the same as the T2 and can easily do 200hp.

The problem with the GT2056 is the wastegate is tiny and needs porting out for stable boost.

have a search for the GT1752, it's a nice responsive turbo and good for plenty of power too.

Matty, you are right.
I did the porting as the WG was very small.

Attachment 31067 Spent this morning grinding a lip onto the base of my TB to better hold the silicone hose connector

Hopefully that should do it Russell. :agree:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ian S

Hi Russell, I don't want to sound overly negative or excessively critical, and it's sometimes somewhat interesting when people do an EFI conversion to their carb'd five. And perhaps that photo is not representative of what is going on there, but from that it looks like it shouldn't flow! There can be a fair bit of engineering to this task to optimise it, and from that it looks like none has been applied?

There have been / should be so many photos of EFI conversions around to have a look at. A few with 5GTT C1J's. philr5t 's one made maybe 330BHP from a single throttle body and a smoother looking manifold with no 90° bend in the middle.

That welding (brazing) on yours is terrible looking. Maybe it will grind off but should not be like that in the first place.

Have the people you're using ever done welding before? Or made and inlet manifold?

A few photos here: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.p...ichael-tierney
philr5t photos seems to have disappeared.
Andrew Cooke photos seems to have disappeared.

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She moves air like a storm in Florida
https://youtu.be/-mB4mqSQ1I4

The latest power run for Doris. The engine lost a head off an exhaust valve when I ran out of fuel at Aintree last time out. New turbo another head from Tony Hart at In Racing. Scoff at EFI Parts checks the mapping and.

Attachment 32779

Really good power that Russel! What boost is that at?

In your new head, have you gone for 1 piece valves? I guess your finding typical fatigue in standard items that are continuously used hard! Still testament of the standard equipment lasting reasonable prolonged abuse! :D

Also, how are the brakes now?

The valves are from Tony Hart and are 35mm which dont sit right into the valve pocket, which was a worry I dont know if they are 1 piece. I think the valve failed because I ran out of fuel as I headed for the finish at Aintree over 7K revs in 4th. I will be running with a larger safety margin in future and the pit crew have rigged the lifter pump from the reserve tank (that fills the swirl pot) to come on with the ECU so I can fill the swirl pot before starting the engine.

Boost pressures were 14.4, 18 and 23 psi

Some said that it would never work with the siamesed ports. I think we can say that it does work, at least reasonably well.
To recap twin throttle bodies from a Kawasaki ER 600, 5 O Black ops fuel injectors (https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/ )and a bespoke inlet manifold 1 TB to 2 inlet ports. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlwBPscK5Nk)

Re the brakes Carbon Lorraine brake pads, just spectacular. They cost but what a difference they have made.