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I thought I'd start a new topic to keep everything in one place. This evening I made a start on a stubby collector for the c1j manifold, a few tweeks needed but it should just squeeze in before the first primary.
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...ictureid=10599
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...ictureid=10600
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...ictureid=10601
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...ictureid=10602
Ive also started measuring up the downpipe and looking into the join to the middle section. Im yet to collect the middle section, but by the looks of it unless the flare on the middle section is ALOT larger than the male flare on the downpipe, then even with a 2.5" dowmpipe, it will have to reduce down to 2". Obviously this is not an issue when using a 2" middle/rear section, but to keep 2.5" throughout a larger male flare will be needed to keep the bore size at 2.5".
This will mean either two different downpipes, with different sized joins or one downpipe and two different sized link pipes to the middle section. I suppose the main thing is, how many people would want a 2.5" full system?
Im collecting a middle/rear section on Sunday, so I can take some more measurements then. :agree:
Matt. That looks excellent! I could do with one of them but divided and with a t4 twin scroll flange!:D
Excellent work looks top drawer.
Looks great the quality of your work looks really good:agree:
Keep the pictures flowing :-)
Dem weldz :cool:
I can make one up if you need one, just let me know what size pipes and length of collector and whether you want it as a weld on or slip joint type collector. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
Thanks for the comments. :) this was the smallest I could make with my current torch, so I've ordered a smaller one, to be able to get in and weld it with a smaller outlet opening, which can then be formed to fit a T2 flange.
Are you doing it with flame, MIG or TIG?
All Tig welded, but the first part of the weld needs to be done from the inside.
I now have all the parts to make a downpipe, and the jig is 90% made.
Has anyone got the exhaust bracket, that the downpipe clamps to, at the back of the engine that I could borrow? I just need to set the downpipe end position, then I can get the first one made. :D
Excellent marry. Looking forward to seeing your progress.:agree:
Hi, I've not forgotten about this. :ashamed: I've had so much work on making other exhausts, it's been few and far between to get chance to work on it. I have the jig complete now and I've made a start on the first downpipe, so it shouldn't be much longer before its complete. :D
Here's a few of the things I've been working on lately.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fusio...?ref=bookmarks
Matt,
I have someone that wants a 1 piece downpipe ASAP. What you reckon?
Hi Matt, I should have the first one finished by the end of this week. And that's for a T25/28 exhaust housing. I won't get chance to trial fit for another week as it's on my 5 is my daily and I'd need to swap turbos as well. Is someone would be willing to trial fit for me it could save some time? :)
Let ask Alan.
I've text Alan matey. He's the one that wants one. He said he would trial fit it if you want?
Ok great. Do you know if he needs a lambda boss and the other threaded take off on the elbow?
Matty,
I've ain't him a text. Can you pm me your number and I'll get him to call you.:agree::)
Pm sent Matt.
Ive managed to get most of the downpipe done to trial fit. Im just waiting for the tapered flange to arrive for the bottom joint. Im going to have the turbo flange made slightly different for the next one, as there isn't much room to do the nuts up, and if there is enough room, I can improve on the flange join.
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...ictureid=10786
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...ictureid=10787
Looks good. How much are they going to cost.
Wow matt, wow!:agree:
Thanks for the comments.
I'm not sure on price yet, I need to get a quote for a different design T25 flange, and work out costings for everything else. This was made from 1.2mm 304 stainless which is a bit more expensive than 1.5mm. I will have a price soon though, and if it all fits up well, and doesn't need any adjustments I can make a start on making the rest of the system in 2.5". :agree:
Well it's been a while! This is now the mk3 version. I wasn't happy with the first bend and the slanted pieced section, and I now have a better design that should flow better. I just need to weld up the second section now. :)
Anyone willing to try this out for me fitment wise?
Here's the mk1 version with the new mk3 version...
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pse93hcaye.jpg
That's the lick! Or some other young person's saying :D
Hey that looks brilliant. If you need someone to trial fit it I will do it. :)
Ok, thanks Alex. I'll crack on and get it welded up today. Lambda bosses will hopefully be here by the end of the week. If this design all fits in, price will be £240 + Postage.
I also have the jigs made up for the 2.5" system now. So if this downpipe design works, I can make a start on the rest of the system. :agree:
Matty, is the latest design 2.5" mate? You note at the top of the thread there maybe different sizes. For sure virtually all people will opt for a 2.5" :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
for sure alex mikes got a powerflow 2.5 on his and that was not easy coming by so I recon almost all would want a 2.5 system think james5 wanted 1 too
I would but mine would need to be different at front join as I am running an F7pt setup and BBPT downpipe F7pt downpipe so ideally my car would need to go up and have the front part done on site.:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by R5MJH
As others have said excellent work Matty. ;) Agreed it all needs to be 2.5" system.
Would be great as a full package, exhaust and downpipe combo.:agree:
Yeah this is in 2.5". The mains concern is the part that joins the link pipe. If it was to be fitted to a say 2" link pipe, then there wouldn't be alot to seal on the tapered flange join. But as you say, I think everyone would opt for the 2.5" anyway!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
I haven't decided how many section to make the mid/rear section in. I've heard that the 2.5" systems ate difficult to manoeuvre over the torsion bar, so may benefit from being split into smaller sections?
I think you can buy a colar for things like that, but why anyone would want a nice 2.5" front section mated to a 2" rear is anyones guess! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Theres very few 2.5" rear exit systems out there. GT Tuning used to make one and possibly a few others at most. Most rear exits are about 2-2 1/4". I think my old Scorpion (bought around 2002 so not the old design) was under 2". They can be a real pain getting them over the rear beam without knocking on it or the side of the chassis. I currently have a KTR / Tiger 2.5" side exit.
I know what you're saying. But if someone wants to run a full length system, which aren't currently available, then it could be a likely scenario. :crap:
It's all welded up. No lambda boss on this one, but it will give a good idea of fitment, and see if anything needs tweaking.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psqouyopho.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psstrrunaj.jpg
Looks really good :agree:
Cheers Alex. Pm me you address and I'll get it in the post. :agree:
Good work! :agree: :)
Where abouts do the larger system knock at the rear? I've heard its where they pass over the rear beam? Is there much room to move the last bend higher to avoid this? I'm starting to make the rear section now in 2.5" and I want to make sure the rear section clears the beam ok, especially for those that run lower then standard.
Downpipe is on its way to Alex now for trial fitment.:agree:
Yeah it's the rear beam and as you say, there's less room on lowered cars.
If the run of the exhaust is well designed and the hangers are similarly, then if it is fitted properly there should be no problem (IMO).
Cheers Trev, ok I'll make it so the inside of the bend is at the same point so the additional dia of the pipe is towards the top.
Now that looks special!Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
My 2.5" rear exist, (which I never fitted!) has the pipe going into the top of the front end of the back box. Then the internal perforated pipe goes down at an angle and exits, err, I forget, near the bottom maybe. AS I recall it's a somewhat short but large diameter silencer.
So perhaps not ideal for flow, maybe better for reducing noise. But clears a lowered cars rear beam, apparently. I never tired it, but it was on a 'tuner car'; 5 Alive in Lewisham.
What happened the the custom exhaust system's?
Matt sent me a downpipe for trial fitment. I tried it and it was too close to the water pipes so I sent it back and told him what I think he needed to mod, with pictures etc. I've heard nothing since and he's no longer a member :crap: Hopefully he'll be back in touch at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by James5
Coming soon turboteds full 2 1/2 inch downpipes with afr bungs these are made to fit both t2 and t25/t28 turbos so is one downpipe that fits every turbo;)
Shame it was sounding promising, I am thinking of going to my local powerflow place and getting them to hack and modify my sidey so exit's out the rear (no extra silencers just use the existing one on the sidey and the rest just 2.5" out the rear)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
:agree: Robbie sounds good:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo ted
I can get full 2 1/2" exhaust systems made here easy the problem is posting from Ireland to England, going to try few downpipes first see how it goes and maybe some efi manifolds and f7p/f4r exhaust manifolds as there easy to post. my cousin has a company called just kustoms he builds manifolds and exhaust for motor bikes all over Ireland checkout his Facebook page just kustoms:)
these need to go in the club shop only, rob can you do 5 to start??
excellent product for the shop we can get 5 and put them in the shop for members only:agree:
this is awsum!! get em made. rekon they will fly off the shelf. awsum upgrade:agree: nice one robbie
Agreed. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by R5MJH
Hi Alex, massive apology!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
I haven't forgotten about this, I was asked to make one of these up, and that order turned into 10...and it has taken up all of my time over the last 6 weeks, that I wasn't expecting!
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps8osvgutu.jpg
It's taken a while to sort out having the downpipe flange cut to make to suit your T2 exhaust housing but the measurements I have for the holes centres on my housing are different to the drawings my laser cutting has for these, but I thats all sorted now. I have made another complete downpipe for you with the flange tweaked over 5mm so I am just waiting for the new flange to arrive now. I'm finally back on track now.
Hi Matty, good to hear from you. No bother at all - glad you're still progressing with this :agree: That manifold looks awesome, maybe that can be your next RTOC 'project' once the downpipes are sorted ;)
My car is just sitting there is various bits at the moment so I'm happy to continue with the trial fitments when you're ready :)
If the down pipes are made, how much are you looking at selling them for? Our friends on the other side are asking £300 each which I think is too expensive. How much can you do a batch for Matty?
Im hoping to do some manifolds too, I've got a flow bench 50% made which I'd like to get running so I can do some off car trials on the parts ive made, as it would be nice to give some performance figures on parts. But downpipes first, and full systems. Things have quietened down now race season is over, so I can get cracking on with this.
Matt - Ive gone back to the original design now, due to the clearance on the water pipes as mentioned above, so I can do these for £240 if I can do a batch of them.
:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
WOW!
That is all :agree:
Excellent mate. We could advertise these on the RTOC fb page. Would a batch of five be a good start?Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
That's fine mate. :agree:
I know it's a while ago since we had any Big Jim pipes, and I'm not trying be negative or pick holes, just saying that's all, but IIRC we were SELLING those downpipes from the shop for £150. I bought a batch of 10 from him. It took him 1 hour to make each one.
Hmmm, that doesn't ring any bells with me but then maybe I'm thinking of Boris when he said each one took significantly longer than an hour. :scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
materials have gone up alot since then these sound good for £240 ish with excellent build quality by the look of it, if it wss me doing it there would be loads of bird sh1t around lol, at the end of the day ian youll get the club money back once sold which i think they will sell very quick, but only prob a max order of maybe 5 a time
I have to admit I had the first TR custom downpipe and it had a lot more work go into than the ones they are currently selling and it had all the lobster effect done to it and back purged it did look really nice in the flesh. I bought it off them at cost so I was told for £210.00 that included courier cost's. I was advised that they used a BMS downpipe to make the jig up.
Pic's attached of the one I had, not saying the RTOC one needs to be lobster backed but would be nice to have the plate on with RTOC printed on it :-)
Going in line with pricing, even back in 2011 this message was done from Big Jim
Quote:
Hi there. Haven't got any turbo exit flanges left. Could buy one and put a downpipe together for you but it would have to be a bit extra.
The price of everything has gone up since I started doing them for £150 so would have to say more like £190 and this would be the VERY last one.
If you're interested let me know.
That's about 12 weld 'rings' on there so a lot of labour time in measuring, cutting, assembling, tacking pieces together and welding.
Jim did it in two to three 'Easy Bends'. He had laser cut flanges made for him in batches of 10 sets.
If the materials were £15 for one set of flanges and £25 for the rest, so £40. If the materials price has risen by as much as 25% then that's £50.
I don't have any actual numbers but perhaps some could add them here?
As far as selling fast I can't predict but IIRC we had two batches from Jim, 20 pipes, and was a couple of years to sell them. How many 5GTT still rolling don't already have one?
Just seen you post Dale, I think he was making about £100 per pipe for an hours work, I really don't know why he didn't want to do any more at that profit margin. That cost increase there would be due to having to make one pair of flanges himself. And possibly the postage to him for one set of pipes.
But were talking about sets of 10 now, so economy of scale.
Either way, Jims not doing them now. If they cost RTOC £240 and the shop can make it money back once postage and PayPal, etc, is added and actually sell them for £300 or so then RTOC should meet the demand from those affluent people.
its cool whatever ian just be a bit of class to have these in the club shop again, id suggest only 5/10 at a time as you say theres not that many 5s left but a deffo plus in lots of respects for the club, I agree to with james a rtoc metal tag plate is a must if its possible matty
remember too ted said he may have some on the way :cool:
Theres much more to consider that flange and pipe costs.
Flanges
Pipes
Argon gas + back purge gas
Filler rod
Tungstens
Labour intensive for good fit up before welding
Gas isn't cheap and price of stainless isn't that cheap anymore.
Building a stock of 10, these days you'll probably sell 1-2 each month in reality
Lobster backing really isn't good, the whole is for the downpipes to flow well, and lobster backing just creates a series of ripples in the pipes.
RTOC name plates are simple enough to do, but then is that another unnecessary expensive if people want to keep the costs down?
I really can't see how someone could make one in an hour, it takes a few hours making the first bend a good fit in the flange and making the fillet piece a nice fit. Everything is tacked, the first elbow pieces tidied up so when its welded the is no overlap on the joins, and pipes are rounded up at the joins, so there is no step in the pipes, the flange join is also welded on both sides, both ends, When you add the cost of 3 flanges, 2 bends, lambda boss, gas, filler rod and general consumables used it soon adds up, and back purging uses more gas especially on larger dia pipework. As I am set up as a business I also have tax to pay on everything I make. Its very difficult to get prices down when ordering small quantities of flanges, the price difference between 1 flange or 10 is about £1 a flange, so they near enough cost the same to make in materials, you might save an hour or so per exhaust doing them in a batch as you can do the as a production run.
If you would like to supply them in the club shop, then I am more than happy to discuss pricing and quantities, but until I get a small batch done its difficult to say exactly how much quicker making a batch of them will be.
I'm also not convinced it only took him an hour to make one. I've been trialing Matts downpipes and have seen the quailty of the welds and pipe work etc. Once we have the final article I would agree with Mick and stick maybe 5 in the club shop and see how we go from there. As long as Matt is good with that. :)
Thats fine with me. I will look into getting the rear section of the 2.5" systems made up. The front section is straight forward, so if I can get the rear section made to fit an existing side exit setup first, the front part can be made after, that will save some time getting the ball rolling on these. :agree:
I have looked into doing the strut braces too, does anyone know what diameter the main bar is? It looks to be about 42mm from photos I have seen.
Yeah putting in the club shop would be ideal, though complete exhaust systems wont be for me due to size, whereas the downpipes can be sent by royal mail as I do all the rest of the stuff.
loads would buy the 2.5 system like ive got now but as dale said its not good to store at his house because of space but this dont stop matty sending them directly to the member via the club shop saleQuote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Yeah, Jim was stocking the downpipes and posting direct to the customer for us.
If I make up a 10mm² mains lead it takes me about 3 hours.
When I was doing them often and making batches I got the time down to about 1 hour.
I have just put an 'interested' post on facebook to see what feedback we get from the club members. Up to know all positive and I think this will be a great product especially if exhausts can be offered also.
pressures on Matty!;)
I'll be sending off the rear bends next week to be copied off the original system. What tips would people generally want on the back box? Outwards rolled, plain etc...? I guess most will want just a single silencer system and not want the mid silencer?
Silenced tail pipe. Ie, lined with perforated tube surrounded with wadding. My Fiat Janspeed has that as did the Blue Flame 'Mongoose' for the 5. It can, or does, take some nasty harshness of the sound. IMO, the Mongoose was the best sounding exhaust I heard on a 5, more like a musical instrument, trombone at lower revs, trumpet at higher.
Won't you need to take the bend higher than an original 'pea shooter' exhaust to allow for the wider bore? And be more precise with the routing so it doesn't knock? It can be a challenge to have it clear the cross beam, double so on a lowered 5GTT.
The 2.25" Mongoose exhaust I had sounded lovely but only once I'd ripped out the small silencing element that was inside the actual tailpipe! :dearme:
The tailpipe was inwardly rolled around an end piece, once I'd ground the rolled section off I was able to stick the handle of a hammer up the perforated inner and wiggle it around until the welds broke at the exit of the back box. Then it sounded great rather than being an OE-like stainless replacement.
It was somewhere between the sappy Magnex and a side-exit. Perfect for my sensibilities at the time.
Edit - a bit like this crappy contraption:
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...ib/Exhaust.png
If it was my money, I'd want a 2.5 or 3" unsilenced tailpipe like the scorpion systems
I think the old scorpion was the dogs. Also the mongoose a good second. Mongoose being the better made.
I think all the modern stuff is straight cut? Also defiantly single silencer ie back box only. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
If I was after a rear exit I'd just want 2.5" all the way through including the tailpipe, nothing fancy, just purposeful. A good option for the tailpipe would be like the old Devil design. :cool:
I'd be all over strut brace if you make them mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Did you ever hear it from outside the car with someone else driving? From inside the car you can't really hear it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
I replaced it with 2 1/2 inch side exit. Too loud, made my ears suffer. Still have it but had the car remained working I expect I would have change to the 2 1/2 rear exit I also have. (straight through, obviously, Magnex had a restrictor in all but the very early version and Scorpion had a tiny bore silencer, maybe 1 1/2 inch. With a 4 inch tail pipe!!
I want a battery car now as I'm sick of the damn noise.
Ian do you still have your five?
Well I had my 5 MOT'd today, so while it was on the ramps I had a good look at the exhaust with it on its wheels. I can see the issue with the beam, but there is plenty of room above. I've had a look at the standard system I have in the workshop and I think I've sorted where an improvement can be made to gain more clearance on the beam.
I'll order some bends up and piece one together, then I'll get them CNC bent as a one piece rear section.
I was interested to see what system I had fitted as it is louder than standard but it has middle box too...turns out it has no back box, just a tailpipe welded onto the 1 3/4 pipe :laugh:
Looks like I'll be putting my name on the list for a full system. :D
This is my back box...
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psr80necva.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by francob80
Not a problem to do. I just need to know the diameter of the main brace section. The rest I can work out on the car. :agree:
I do. But I can't afford to get it working. Even though I have most of the parts, I can't afford the extra insurance. I'd have to run the Fiat with the 5 as a classic to get a good price, but with extra tax, etc, it still maybe £500 to £1000 a year I don't have. Plus I'd need to have a fair bit of body work done first and get an engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
Matt, have a think if a 3" is possible too. ;)
3" should be possible, but the rear beam may cause an issue. A 3" downpipe would almost be easier with regards to the flange join.
Thanks for putting the word out on FB. :agree:
This might be a good excuse for me to fit my T2/25 turbo and get a full 2.5" system on mine.
Do it mate. Also I know robbie (turbo ted) has a 3" and over the beam with no knocking. As a one off I would be interested in just an exhaust as I have a 3" down pipe already :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
That sounds absolutely perfect :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
The trumpet design of the devil exhausts were ace.
Not when standard but I did after I'd modded it. It sounded great from both inside and outside then :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Well plenty of interest on RTOC Facebook. People would like full exhausts too!
Any timescales on the dp matty?;)
Flanges are all cut for the T2 and T25 and being sent today, so I can the downpipe finished this week, and I'll trial fit it on my car this weekend, so I can make sure the jig is correct. As I've only got a standard 1 3/4 system, I'll send it over to Alex to fit on his so it can be properly bolted up to the system. If its all good, I can get on with them straight away. The full system bends are being CNC bent later this week. I'm lowering my car 35mm this weekend, so I can make sure there is enough clearance on the beam with a lower drop. So its all go! :agree:
:yeah:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Well done squire. Excited for the club members. :agree:
Have you a price in mind for the exhaust? Is it a straight through no silencers system?
No price for the systems yet, one of the places I use for CNC bends said they couldn't make the 'S' section in one piece. So I've measured the bend angles to order the bends up individually and once I get it all welded together and it all fits, I can get a price from another supplier. They are usually more expensive for one off due to set up time, but if I can get a batch done together it will bring the costs down.
I was basically looking at doing a standard system from the downpipe back to the beam, then within reason, people can choose whether they would like a silencer fitted and what size tips etc...it would be nice to make them all the same, but it shouldn't be too much of an issue swapping the back section as this will be seperate from the mid section. :agree:
:agree:
Righty I've had a look into the exhaust fitment of the both downpipes I have made.
The first one has much more clearance on the heater pipes, but I still might be able to get the second design to work, which will be better a flowing elbow.
Here's the pics, the first design. Plenty of clearance all round.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pso6icr7x8.jpg
Second design. (Before jig change) it needs a slight tilt change on the flange, but the lower section looks near enough spot on (I'm using a 1 3/4 mid section at the moment). There is about 10mm clearance on the heater hoses, but I might be able to get this to 20mm in the same design, with a shorter cone and less of an angle on the whole pipe. I guess most people ditch the heat shield bracket at the back where the downpipe runs? and do away with the support bracket on the box where it joins the mid section? A 2.5" fits through the bracket, but the holes in the bracket put the mount holes for the exhaust flange into the flared section of the centre section part....if that makes sense?
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pswdpviigy.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psg7pz9aa5.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psl7uc4ldk.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps1zzc21u9.jpg
:agree:
Looks awesome matey. I guess some of the original brackets have to go in a quest for smooth flow and size. :agree:
That's not a heat shield bracket, it's job is to hold the weight, and keep the position, of the exhaust and turbo. Otherwise the whole lot is hanging off the manifold and wobbling around.
That some people don't fit them might be why their exhaust housings crack and is perhaps the cause of the manifold gaskets going at the turbo end.
I had the brackets and a T28 and the Ktec 2 1/2 inch downpipe and side exit and it all fitted OK. Except I made my own stainless bolts arrangement for the flexible coupling.
The original support bracket is fine, it's just the lug that sticks up for the heat shield that sits close, I can move the pipe further away.
What about the lower bracket where it joins the centre section? Like I say it fits through the bracket, but the original hole centres are narrower than the diameter the swaged lip will be on the centre part? :crap:
I agree with Ian, it would be better to retain the brackets (or be able to keep them). That said, I removed all the bracketry and never had a cracked manifold or any other problems and I had a T25, bored out standard elbow and 2.5" crossover pipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Edit - not sure about the centre section lower bracket.
Brackets are now fine, I've adjusted the jig to bring the pipe over the top as standard fitment. With regards to the lower clamp, I'm not sure how most people have connected theirs up, that are running a 2.5" downpipe and centre section. You may get away with slotting the holes in the bracket, but obviously not ideal.
I also set my standard pipe orientation up on the elbow knuckle join, using my jig, and everything bolted straight up to the car. :agree:
Still awaiting these flanges, they were supposed to be here a few days ago. But everything is set ready to go. :coffee:it's about a 2 week lead time on the centre section, so this should work out well, as I'll be swapping my downpipe for a 2.5" and I can build the rest of the system off that.
I done away with that bracket years ago and it's been fine. That said I only run a small turbo (lighter than a big one?) and I've never had an issue. I agree it would be better if we can incorporate the bracket in mind with the design.
Which bracket Alex? The turbo support bracket is fine if I tilt the pipe further up. Its just the lower gearbox bracket that will be a problem.
The Y-shaped bracket that takes some of the weight of the turbo/down pipe Matty. You can see it in your pictures. It looks like it won't be an issue though :)
Consists of the tie bar from the back of the engine block and the plate that attaches to.
The assembly holds the bottom of the down pipe to / and the flexible coupling.
I'll take a picture of the lower bracket to show what the issue is. The pipe fits through it ok but the bolt holes don't line up as the hole centres on the flanges need to be further apart to clear the flared section of the centre part.
Are you using an overly wide flare?
I have 2.5 inch pipes and it's all fine. Fits easily.
I replaced the bolts with a few inches of stainless threaded rod, tightened two nuts against each other at the top of each, dropped them through the bracket and flange (or flange and bracket), fitted up the springs with another two nuts underneath.
There might be two flanges with the bracket between. One around the pipe to the bracket and one around the pipe from it (ie the centre section pipe).
On my downpipe from the turbo, the bottom flange is a loose fit. IIRC, on the OE pipe that was welded.
The flare is a standard size for 2.5" so the its approximately 8-10mm a side on the OD. The one thing I have noticed is that alot of the aftermarket downpipes seem to have an internal male taper on the downpipe, so it is effectively reducing the pipe size at the join to 1 3/4.
The flanges all arrived yesterday, so I'll get cracking on the next one and get some pics up of the lower bracket. :agree:
Have you got any pictures of the lower bracket on yours Ian?
Yes I've seen this too. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Looking forward to this!:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
All the pipes I had were 2 1/4 or 2 1/2 all the way. No restrictions or I'd not have had them.
As far as I recall, no photos, sorry. Just standard stuff. All the same back then, to 2008 when I last ran the car.
Standard brackets. Normal after market pipes. No restrictions. Everything fitted OK.
Jim made them for years with no problems fitting the brackets as far as I know. I can only presume the Boris one fitted too.
:agree:
I did find this pic of a Big Jim Racing pipe:
Cheers Ian. I've had a measure up this evening and I can get it to work with the lower bracket, I just need to make the flare a couple of mm smaller each side on the centre section and notch out the male taper on the downpipe where the bolts pass. :agree: I could make the male taper slightly smaller but it would be good to keep the sealing area as large as possible.
I should have it all made up tomorrow. :)
downpipe mk3... :D
I have now changed the flange angle, moved the pipe further up to clear the heat shield bracket and moved it 10mm further away from the bulkhead. I still have a bit of fettling to do to align the first pipe, but as you can see this will be a nice flowing elbow!
Centre section should be with me early next week, so I'll get this all fitted up together, as it's going on my daily, it'll mean running with no silencer for a week or so, until I get that part sorted. :D
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psswvejhps.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psexgf8cjg.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psnzaesa87.jpg
Awesome skills :goodJob:
Wow!;)
They look awesome Matty. I look forward to seeing the finished article along with the exhaust systems. If you need any further help/trial fitment let me know as my car is currently up on the axle stands and will be for a while......
Just wondering whether these will ever be available to other club members?? I'd prob be interested in a downpipe as I'd keep my scorpion on.
Thanks for the comments.
I've got a T2 flange sorted, so I am happy to make one up using this flange to fit in yours Alex if you are planning on running one? or I can make a T25 like this to trial fit as the top two flange holes are in the same position for both flanges.
I would like to trial the systems on a lowered car, to check beam clearance. Mine will be lowered 35mm this weekend but it would be nice to make sure it clears 50-60mm. If yours is lowered 50-60mm it would be good if you can check the system clearance?
MR Turbo - the plan is to get a group buy sorted as soon as the fitment finalised (which it pretty much is now). Ive got the first set of 2.5" system bends arriving in the next week, so once the beam section/clearance is sorted, we will work out between everyone what people want with regards to the rear silencer etc...
If Alex's car is on axle stands then you could go round, fit the exhaust and jack the rear beam up to mimic a car lowered 50mm+ and see what adjustments need to be made, if any :agree:
Anyone lowering much more than 50mm and fitting an enormous exhaust is asking for various amounts of trouble anyway IMO :D
I think it's easier just to stick to the T25 flange Matty. The only thing I had to do was move one of the studs to another hole when I was test fitting :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Matty is quite a distance from me Trev. My axle is currently off the car! :D That said it might actually work out o.k. as I could dummy fit it and jack it up into the required position? Just a thought. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
Ohhhhhh... :D
Downpipe is now finished. :agree::coffee:
I'm going to fit this one on my car, as my downpipe has split on the lower flange so needs relacing and it means I can fit my T25 while I'm at it. :D
It will give me something to joint the full system to as well.
I can always Jack my beam up 15-20mm from its -35mm position, and see if I can get it to fit in with a more lowered position.
Alex, If this one fits up ok, then I'll make another one up for you to try on yours. The only problem is that if you are planning on running it, then it will only bolt up on the 3 studs, so it may not seal up completely, so a T2 flange may be better to run...its up to you? :crap:
This is the fitment on the lower bracket, it's snug but fits ok.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps0r3v5aoq.jpg
Complete downpipe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psse1sot7w.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psj2lpvd4o.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psvzanhzjm.jpg
I think the one I tried was a T25 flange wasn't it? If so I did manage to fit all (4 I think) studs/nuts to it, I just had to move one stud to another hole so it lined up. Either way, going forward, I'll no doubt be running a T25 variant so thats the flange I'd go for :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Oh that's awesome! Matty well done on these. These are great for the club members.:agree:;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I think if you slotted one of the remaining holes then it might fit. The gasket faces are a slightly different shap too, but if you're eventually going for a T25 it makes sense to go down that route. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
Cheers Matt, it's nice to get somewhere with this now! So I can finally get on with these full systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
Great stuff mate :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Dropped a photo on RTOC Facebook. :)
.....and bags of interest. 😆
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
Nice one! :agree:
So where are most people wanting the lambda bosses, in the position I have it or further up on the first bend?
I've started on the one for Alex to try, so it would be good to have this done as the finished design.
If you make a devil style sidey I'm interested.
I think it's 9" from the turbo outlet to be optimum? It certainly needs to be accessible with all the standard gt gumf in the way.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Yeah 8/9" inches is optimum, I'll put it on top of the elbow. :agree:
I can do a devil style sidey, but I need to get these downpipes and systems sorted first. Silencer will be with me Thursday so I can get that part started, and I'll be trialling a resonator box out for those that want something loud. :D
Those who still use the OE heat shield can't accommodate a Lamda sensor on the top.
I fitted mine near the bottom pointing to the left such that I allowed access for a spanner to fit and remove it.
There can be a lot of heat just after the turbo. When I read up on it 10 years ago, Lambda sensors need to be at about 600°C (Though there seem to be at least two heat ranges now). Most have a heater to keep them at that. If they are a lot hotter, eg, 900°C, that can cause a error with the accuracy. Back then the favoured position would more than 8 inches. Maybe double that. Things may have changed since then?
Matty I meant 9" from the turbo outlet so down the pipe. Not sure on clearerence etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I will have a look at where would be accessible. Unfortunately I don't have a heat shield to check the clearances with that fitted though. How many are running a standard heat shield with a T25/28? I can position them in different positions for different people, if everyone wants them placed differently.
Most of the downpipes I have made for turbo applications the sensor is within 8" of the outlet flange (due to limited space) and no negative effects seen. Some exhausts have had them further down and again no problems.
On our dyno at work we have one on the exhaust manifold and one fitted further down the pipe for different engine configs. They both read the same readings, the only difference I have seen is that the one further down the pipe takes slightly longer to go through the warmup cycle on initial start up. :crap: In all honesty as long as it is mounted above horizontal and before any slip joins, on a carbed engine any difference in readings would be insignificant to cause an issue. :agree:
Alex, the second downpipe is all done, and ready to go. :agree: Shall I send it to the same address as before?
Silencer and tailpipe arrived today too, for the systems.
Pics matty so we can drool!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Here's the silencer box with a 2.5" tip. I requested a ribbed box, but received a plain one, dimensionally they are the same, so this will be fine to use as a mock up. :agree:
Second downpipe ready to ship to Alex.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pstjnsjx9a.jpg
:agree::agree::agree::)
Awesome. Pic put on rtoc fb. Love it!;)
Has anyone got Alex's number? I just want to check the address I'm sending this downpipe to?
Ranj has sent me Alex's number and he is unfortuntaley unable to trial fit any time soon.
I will be able to do the trial fit in a few weeks time, once I have moved units. But if anyone wants the first one I happy to do it £200 for someone that can trial fit it in the next week or so? If it doesn't fit then happy to give full refund. :agree:
The bends for the full system finally arrived today, they look really good quality mandrel bends, so worth the wait!
Someone shout up quick!
Dave aka Shaggy?? you up for this?? I know you were thinking of a one piece :agree:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=445
I am desperate for a 2.5" rear exit system but as said my setup is different as running f7pt, I don't need the bottom downpipe that goes under car, I need it from the rear of the downpipe under the car as if it was a K-tec side exit fitting if you know what I mean? ill try get a pic
If you want James, I can make up the rear section first as that is the harder part to make with regards to clearance. If you can measure the distance from a fixed point at the rear of the car, to where your sidey ends, I can make the link pipe to your section the right length the sleeve over your existing front section. I'm jigging off the original system, so as long yours is the same distance from the floor it should fit straight up.
I've got all the parts now, the silencer is a 2.5" ID 4" OD and tip is an inward rolled 2.5" and all the bends.
Downpipe has been collected ready for a trial fitment now. :agree:
Great stuff. Fingers crossed it fits.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
First post!
Hi Matt are we ready to be ordering these systems yet ?? Really look good and wanting one before spring 😬
I have been told that the first one is going to be trial fitted this week. :agree:
Im keen to get the ball rolling on these too. I have all the parts for the 2.5" full systems, so as soon as the fitment is confirmed I can get the jig finished for the full systems.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Sound mate fingers cross 👍 Just sent my t25 away so would be nice to a full system for when that comes back 😁😁😁
:wasntme::agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Thanks Mark for the Pics...everything is looking good fitment wise, just the heater hose clearance to check now. :agree:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psgrk71tlt.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psp5tqjsmf.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pscg9cn6ht.jpg
Looking good matty. Definitely quality :)
Should the bevels of the bottom flange be rounded rather than flat? That is the flexible coupling. The engine 'rolls' forward and rearward and the exhaust is moving all the time at that joint.
I just had a look at on old OE one and that is rounded, as it an old after market 2 1/2 one I have. The Ktec (Powerflow?) 2 1/2 however is (was) flat but does have some concave wear rubbed into it.
In an ideal world you would have a ball joint fitting at this point, or flexi on the start of the rear system. Or if money was no object a V band clamp and flexi and the system. but then they would cost more to produce, and wouldn't allow such a universal fitment for different systems, and the lower clamp location would then become redundant. The male flare on the system would have a convex form on the inner part of the flare to allow for roll, not as much as a ball joint but certainly enough.
This type of joint would last a lot longer than the compression type gaskets, that just compress over time and wear.
I'm happy to make whatever the majority want, but the more complex the system obviously the more it costs to produce, and whether the adding other complexities are worth the extra money im not so sure?
The flange on the downpipe looks bevelled in the same way as other after market GTT exhausts I've seen but then my memory is terrible. Certainly we don't want to go down the route of flexi's, even though that would be the ultimate. We just want them to fit like all the other after market exhausts.
Is it possible to see a comparison pic? Say between Matty's new one and a Magnex, or Scorpion, or Mongoose?
heater hoses will be mega close to that pipe.
I'd suggest using a tighter bend off the turbo, but then that stainless manifold isn't helping clearance matters.
A compression doughnut would only gain over that by less wear on the front pipe when their mated together and easier to rotate when the engine accelerates.
The friction of your lovely machined part up against the front pipe will probably speed up welds cracking on the cars without the front downpipe brackets.
Whenever doing stuff like this i kinda look at every angle things could break and weigh up the pros n cons
Will be checking heater hoses for Matt tomorrow evening so we know if they clear, it might be abit close but we shall see. Little trim might be needed but no hardship if does
Yeah the tubular manifold does stick out abit but if it fits this engine I have here at the moment then the downpipe should fit all engines, know some people still run these manifolds
Is a lovely piece of fabrication along with my manifold Matt has made for me
Shame there wasn't a Big Jim Racing one to copy and he seemed to have it all right as far as fitment.
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Looks spot on mate really impressed... I really want one with the full system 👍👍👍Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
The bend used is the tightest possible as it is 1 X Diameter. This design would be best for flow, over the bend and chamfered fillet section, but means it 15mm-20mm closer to bulkhead. But looking at the aftermarket manifold fitted, it wouldn't work with these being much further away from the bulkhead.
If people would prefer the compression type fitting, I'm happy to go down that route. I use these solid flare type fitting on turbo elbows and not had any issues with them breaking. But they are usually used as a fitting to allow for any misalignments than a movable joint.
I have tooling to make ball/socket joint, but you would need the system have have the correct female end to suit.
The Big Jim pipes look to be made with to half bends welded together on the first bend to taper from 3" to 2.5". As a general rule you want to avoid welding on the outside of the bends kike this as the different expansion rates from the inside compared to the outside of the bend can lead to cracking. Thats why seam welded tube is always bent with the weld on the side of the bend.
I'll head over the Marks and take a look, and see what clearance there is.
I think he made a scoop from cut shapes of 2 1/2" pipes, to bring the oval to a round, much as you have, but then joined that to a partially cut away bend so as the get the clearance to the water pipes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
His first one(s), much like yours, had more bend and less clearance and so people didn't want them. Then he made more clearance and they sold well. I don't know how much clearance was deemed sufficient.
He was using just two pre bent pieces and making the scoop at the turbo. I can only presume that the lower joint was a flat sided bevel, I'm not sure I saw one properly close up. Saw some parts ones in the making but I seem unable to recall.
We aren't getting mixed up with Ben/Boris's efforts are we (BMS)?
A pic of which is here:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...mes/ice003.jpg
From this thread:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=27469
"The BMS ones are all hand formed in a number of peices over a dolly so they don't crack, Ben spent a long time R&D the design/materials as the heat stress soon cracks them if they aren't done right. All his laser cut flanges were proper stainless too and cut down the profit margin..."
And some more pics here:
https://rtoc.org/boards/attachment.ph...1&d=1231675184 https://rtoc.org/boards/attachment.ph...1&d=1231675184
https://rtoc.org/boards/attachment.ph...1&d=1231675502 https://rtoc.org/boards/attachment.ph...1&d=1231675502
From this thread here:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=3675
Also, see post #85.
Where the Big Jim prototype stuff looked like this:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...1&d=1234985984
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...1&d=1234985984
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...3&d=1234985984
Slightly better pic of the BMS flange bevelling (from PaulB's legendary R9T):
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/attachmen...1&d=1377807897
Maybe what Jim did there was cut the end off the bend and turned it a bit, and perhaps slightly tightened the angle.
Yes that would be a weld around the outside of the bend, but it looks like it's all the same diameter pipe, so same expansion rate?
And on that one he's cut and angled piece off another pipe and grafted it onto a cut out for the wastegate gas.
The BMS pipe looks to have a very big step into the rest of the pipe. Is that what it's like from the inside as gas flow tends to not like steps, especially large ones. Seems that sometimes small steps in the right place and way can cause eddying that helps the boundary large to attach, or something.
This is coming along nicely :agree:
I have a BMS pipe to fit, If it helps and you need any pictures or information etc... Let me know before I go and fit it.
Dan:)
Dan, can you place the turbo flange on a flat surface and measure from the flat surface to the highest point of first bend...tape measure would be fine. If you can I can measure the one I have here to compare. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by danr5Gtt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matty
Let me know if you need any more info. I've attached two pictures. :agree:
Attachment 20634
Attachment 20635
Dan, what is the approximate measurement? Bit difficult to see from that pic's angle. Maybe put a piece of card flat over the high point of the bend and against the back of the measuring tape?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
Attachment 20636
like this?
Exactly like that I imagine. Ace. :cool:
Throw spanner in the works here's mine fitted and tested will be for sale soon also
That's spot on. I've measured the one I have here and it's 130mm so 15mm closer to the bulkhead. I'll arrange with Mark to have a look at it fitted, and see if it needs moving. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by danr5Gtt
I'll offer up the 2.5" front section of system too. :D
I popped over to see Mark this evening and had a look at the downpipe fitment. Everything looks good to me, and more clearance on the heater matrix pipes than I thought!
I'm happy with this design after seeing it fitted up, so I'm ready to get the ball rolling on these. :agree: the only change I am going to make from the pics, is that the slots in the lower flange will be shorter, as this was made as a positioning flange for the mock ups, and on the flared section there will be a notch either side for clearance on the mounting bolts.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psf17vdkah.jpg
Looks good to me matty!
Ace :cool:
Brilliant. The heater matrix pipes aren't fitted in that picture but I assume you've tried them with attached to check clearance? This was the main issue when I was trialling it. If clearance is good and they bolt up nicely lets start the ball rolling :agree:
Hi Alex, not tried it with pipes fitted but there is a good 2" clearance on the matrix stubs. I have moved the angle of the pipe further up since the one you tried to clear the heat sheild bracket and it has moved the downpipe further away from the stubs. :agree:
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Hi Matt.. Is it possible to order one yet ?? Cheers
A list of people who definitely want to buy one of these:
Mccrackle27 ?
A list of people who definitely want to buy one of these:
Mccrackle27 ?
Alex
Can someone take a pic of the finished article so I can get the interest on fb?
I have the finished downpipe here with me, I can get pics of it tomorrow
Cheers Mark :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Matt, the downpipe hasn't changed since the pic you out up last time. I can get some pictures of the one I have here if Mark can't. The fitted pictures are good that Mark took in this thread.
Here is a picture of the downpipe I have here. :agree:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psmkj8ohom.jpg
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Yes mate definitely 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
Mccrackle27
Alex
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
It's all gone quite on the exhaust front ??
Know Matts bit busy with being ready to move into a new unit of his, sure he will be on it soon
I'm ready to make these whenever. I just need to know numbers to get the material ordered up to make a batch up. :agree:
I've advertised these on FB :agree:
members only alex please:agree:
Members only has been mentioned Mick :agree:
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Hi mate where about's on Facebook ?? Matt knows I want one but if I have to order one though Facebook I will do so. CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by Alex
No matey it was put on fb rtoc page just to let members know they are ready to be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mccrackle27
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Ok mate if you want a deposit let me know and and your email address if it's PayPal or where ever you want me to send it ?? CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
It's matty who will sort for you matey. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mccrackle27
Yep send me a message. If there are a couple of people wanting them, I'll order enough material to make a batch of 5 up so I'll have a few available off the shelf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mccrackle27
matt how many you got now ready?
we can put in shop and get you to send em out if thats ok?
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Message you mateQuote:
Originally Posted by Matty
I have one currently with Mark and one here that I am using to build the full systems off.
I'll order enough material to make a batch of 5 up, so there will be 3 available from this batch. :agree:
I'll be making these up the week after next. :agree:
5 of these will be completed Wednesday next week. I have all the flange joints made up today, so it's just the pipework to finish off Monday/Tuesday next week. :agree:
Looking forward to this 👍
Excellent. Looks to be quality
Coming along nicely...4 out of 5 here. :agree:
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pswcq4gkms.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...pslfp4nldk.jpg
Them welds!:hump:
That's 4 all done, I need to wait for some more linishing belts to arrive to finish the last one off.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psuxg0fzn8.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps5rjyoba6.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/g...psvfv57f4j.jpg
Amazingly neat welds, the mirror opposite of my recent feeble efforts! What kind of weld is that? Mig? Tig?
That's TIG welds Alex, manually pulse welded. :agree:
As I'm moving units in a couple of weeks im running my stock down to save moving everything again! Even in the last couple of months I have managed to aquire even more than I thought.
I have 3 of these left priced at £210 + postage. Thanks Matt
How did it go with the fitting of these and testing in use?
They fitted on the trial fit I did. The ones that were sold I haven't heard anything back from, so they either haven't been fitted or tested yet or they have been fitted and work with no problems. :confused:
I haven't had a chance to fit mine yet but the other chap that bought one did, I saw a picture on FB.