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Eventually i'm going to upgrade the suspension all round, as its all original as far as i can see, and re-newing all is just on the cards at some point.....
My question is, what should i go for?
The car is going to be road use, with maybe a thrashing at national day on track:D
But i think budget is the biggest factor, i've looked into GAZ for example, but i'm getting married next year so cant really be spending £500+ on the parts to be honest!
What'd reakon?
I got konis from cgb was a good price there not adjustable but cheap have a look buddyQuote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
Koni yellows are a good comprimise between handling and comfort on a road car. Wouldnt bother with coilovers unless you want custom spring ratings or slammed to the weeds
Ah ok, always thought Koni's we're only adjustable-thanks fellas I'll have a look into it:agree:
The rebound is adjustable on koni yellows but not the rideheight.
Just spoke to CGB, they no longer sell Koni.
They have offered a full set of Apex, for £185+vat! But what's people's opinions on Apex?
Or anywhere else for Koni?
Cheers:agree:
Sorry i just looked at mine and there apex they seem fine theres a couple of lads on here with them i suppose you get what you pay for
These guys have them listed on there site.
http://www.venommotorsport.com/manuf...enault&model=5
I use the Apex 50mm kit no issues :agree: it is a bit hard ride quality wise, but you expect that with aftermarket suspension.
Get Koni yellows if you can over Apex tho.
I have never had Konis, so can't comment on the above posts!
I have AVO coilovers all round, I picked them up on eBay for £250 brand new...
They work a treat and are adjustable. Once you set the ride height, you dont really mess around with it... I guess the same for the dampner settings but the option is there is you want to have a play.
I've fitted a fair few Apex suspension kits and just springs and have been suprised at how well the cars drove, for the price they are a good bit of kit
Konis are a top choice but as mentioned are rare to come across, the Apex are a worthy one to go for
As Brigsy says, i would personally avoid coilovers unless you going low or track use they are just abit too harsh for everyday road use
:agree::agree::agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Sound advice as always, nice one:agree:
Totally agree you get what u pay for, but budget is definitely the biggest obstacle now the cars road worthy,and just too much other 'stuff' to pay for!
I think aslong as people don't think they are ****e,then looks like I'll go for Apex then!
Thanks again fella's:agree::agree:
I originally lowered the rear and put some apex 50mm springs in all on standard shocks, was fine to start with. Then i got the 5 out again this year and it was so bouncy and all over the road, sourced some koni yellow shocks front and rear and fitted them, and there 2nd hand and they made alot of difference, not as bumpy and doesnt bounce you all over the road
I have coilies on my 5, Gaz ones, they are superb but at the rear they are a little harsh, bouncing everywhere! but on track they are spot on
Koni. Every time.
Unfortunately the SSK10 is the thick end of a monkey these days, and 2nd hand jobbies are hard to come by.
That's really the bottom line for me,they are just too much,well at the minute anyway-but when alls said and done,I'm not buying anything yet as I'm about to start the bathroom in our house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Once that's done I'll have better idea of where I'm at with money.
Goes without saying,if the monies there I'll get the Koni's cause I know how favoured they are within the RTOC
Think the rears came from me-SHOCKER:cry::DQuote:
Originally Posted by gttjames
But at the time wasn't even sure I could keep the car,let alone spares doing nothing!
Good luck to ya:agree: hope they serve u well for years to come:agree:
Just tell the mrs that you think the bathroom is fine as it is and what you both really need is some konis u am sure she will be fine and maybe even praise you for the great idea:laugh:
I wonder if Koni-UK would entertain the idea of a group buy? Mind you, even with a GB discount, I'd be surprised to see a figure the right side of £400, which is still too much of a hit on the wallet...
could be worth a ask? I would be interested in a new set as how well the 2nd hand ones iv got areQuote:
Originally Posted by Mart
i was 2nd in line for yours mate, yours went to someone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
:laugh::laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by chris
Honestly darling we NEED Koni's:laugh::wasntme:
I'll try and buzz them tmrw, worth a punt anyway:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Ahhh yeah I remember now-they went to Gary I'm sure!Quote:
Originally Posted by gttjames
Sorry:wasntme::agree:
Hi all,
Just a real quick update,spoke to Koni. It would appear for a quantiy of 10+ they will do a kit: Fronts+Rears+Springs @ £320.40 (including VAT & Delivery)
Before go any further: what do you all think?
I'm sure some peps will just want fronts or just want rears,we'll deal with that at a later date,more interested on thoughts of the price!
:agree:
Top man for making the phone call :agree:
That's a good price, which just goes to show how much mark-up Larkspeed & the such like are putting on with the kits they sell :dearme:
Is 10 the minimum order, or would they consider selling one-off's direct to joe public?
that is a good price, is that the adjustable ones?
That's a damn good price!
Wow at that price I'd be tempted.
Hopefully that's for the SSK10 kit: 2 x adjustable fronts, 2 x adjustable rears, 2 x -35mm springs.
That is cheap, i paid about £250 for a pair of front struts a couple of years back
:agree: on the Koni's, bought mine from Larkspeed about 15 months ago and they are :smokin:
Will this be happening anytime soon? Im defo looking into a new set up..
I could be up for some of this depending on when it happens, i've been keeping an eye out for some new suspension, but as its in for a full respray at the moment the funds are a bit low:crap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishey
yer same, iv just done a engine rebuild 2months ago, now the turbos let go so need a new turbo. Am doing windscreen surround and a few other panels aswell over xmas... But the price is very tempting
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Koni-Renau...item3f1b1610e6
These are the ones.................? - Did ask if he was offering a cheaper item, but said no!
I assume/hope these are the SSK10??
They won't sell singular items to individuals, they'll just get you to call a distributor. He said i can purchase them as its a 'bulk order' - which basically means its worth their while.
The kit itself, would be 2xFronts + 2xrears + 2x Springs, but they are 40mm drop!!!
With regards to the springs, he told me koni no longer make them for the 5, but can offer a different brand: 'leisure force' also known as 'rock' - both mean nothing to me?
As for when this is happening, in effect nothing is actually happening as yet, i've just purely picked up the phone out of interest, and it would appear that they CAN offer a good deal?
Part Nos:
Fronts 8741/1167/Sport
Rears 26/1299/Sport
Just as an example to:
Fronts would be £126.65+Vat EACH!!!! - But the kit price, and the 10+ quantity makes them £75.00+Vat each
Long and short for me is that at that price i'm tempted too, couldn't be at a worse time though money wise..........so perhaps if there is enough interest, i'll set up a group buy thread, and we could try and arrange it for a time that suits all - obviously though, if we are going to go down that route, this time of year is pretty tight for most? (with xmas coming!) BUUUUTTT we dont want it to just drift on and on..............
The do do a cheaper Koni now. It seems to be coloured red though. And perhaps is not adjustable.
I would be inclined to fit harder springs. In fact, I did. They were great. It rolled quite a bit less on roundabouts and back doubles.
This thread should be in 'Group Buys' now?
Found the link to the cheaper ones; these are for Fiat: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2809430794...84.m1438.l2649
They have made the koni red for years ian, its just a basic non adjustable replacement damper really. Agreed harder springs would be better.
i have a pair of koni (yellow struts) there used but have no springs. sold them to another 5 owner. the struts are in good nick no leaks etc.if anyone wants em drop me a pm:) open to offers as iv no idea what there worth.
got a few pms on these. will dig em out the box in the garage and take some pictures for everyone whos asked. damping adjusters work perfect no leaks etc. and people keep asking on price. i really dont know. i will get pics up and if anyone has any idea of a value please say. :):agree:
First post!
Hi guys, new to the club today and just to say i am a defo if you're going ahead with the Koni purchase. There's a whole raft of other bits i need too so will keep an eye out on the forums ... will introduce myself proper soon but long an short is i got bent over for the mucho £s 5 turbo on Pistonheads a few months back from 4 Star Classics.
Cheers - Jon
Hi Jon,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny Hogan
Welcome to the club, out of interest what one did you buy from 4 star classics? 1 was owned by a club member... one wasnt...
Yes was it the Black or Tungy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Penfold aka The Dealer
Hi btw
Bet it was the black one....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoolio
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
hi, i bought the tung; i missed out on the black one
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoolio
hi appols i'm just getting to grips with how to post on this site etc ... is there a story with either ... as in something i dont want to know !!!!?/?/!!!!
https://rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=26973
Thats about the black one..... btw ignore negative comments about price etc... alot of tight members on here..
Not at all. The one you bought was owned by Sam'sO.ER5 on here so you can find out more about it from him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny Hogan
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
thanks both, as i say i'll introduce myself prop soon and get some snaps up.
Basically i had 2 5s when i was a kid, the first time i drove one (after my 1.2 nova) i has hooked.
I had a williams after and then an M3. I also now have a Mini Gp. Nothing puts a smile on my face like the 5. I always said if one was availible new i'd pay Renault Sport 200 money for it. The closest thing to it came up and i put my money where my mouth was ... or actually my misses's money ... i still owe her all for it although we did recently get engaged which smoothed the process. The interior is mint and it even smells like a new 5 should :)
There's a few issues that need sorting and i'll be coming to the UK with it soon (i live in jersey). will post all soon as promised but good to see there's plenty of useful info on here, many thanks.
Welcome to the club JonQuote:
Originally Posted by Jonny Hogan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Not at the minute Thanks Ian, keep it where it is, and if enough interest then perhaps we'll just again with a new thread............
I will phone Koni again (either tmrw or Tuesday) but as per the ebay link that i've added, they do appear to be the adjustable version and not the cheaper ones.
With regard to a group-buy, it would appear that only handful of us are interested.
Just to confirm, the £320 price quoted is for the complete kit, and not what you've linked in the Ebay address above? (which is for a pair of fronts only).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
If so, that's some crazy business sense going on!? £357 for a pair of fronts (no springs), or £320 for a complete front & rear kit, inc' (front) springs :confused:
Is that Ebay 'Motamec' actually Koni-UK, or someone just flogging their gear?
I assume just someone selling their gear,but ould always be a sister company!
The price is 100% for a kit:agree:
Just phoned them again: 100% adjustable 'yellows' - just the same as the eBay example!
And they defintely won't entertain 'Joe public' but willl accept a bulk order.
Its probably time to start a group-buy,so when I get the chance,will get the ball rolling(on phone right now!) and if we end up with just afew that want them,then I'll just try and get the deal done:agree:
Nice one :cool:
If you're still on the phone, what's the stock availability/delivery time for the kits?
+1 :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
1) Big Steve - Raider :p
1) Big Steve - Raider :p
2) Logg (if under £350)
Is it a set for a ph1 or ph2?
Stocks we're still available but didn't get into quantitys: Rtoc rule of 3 and all that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Delivery wise,around 2-3wks from date of order.
Unfortunately fronts no longer available! - but assume the rears would fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by CoooL
keep an eye out for the group buy,because quantity is king and if u did just want rears?! It would help us all out:agree:
"STR.T Dampers; Launched at this years Autosport International Show in January" (2012?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigsy
They look more orange. I expect they are the earlier red ones in a new look.
Is there a bit off if people don't want the springs? Or is there a choice of springs, and by that I mean open length and spring rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
I'm easily confused so just to re cap
It's the koni yellow adjustable sport dampers and an unknow named brand springs for £320
Assuming phase 2 fitment as phase 1 fronts not available? or phase 1 as phase 2 not available? or even just assuming no fronts available and all the kit consists of is rear dampers and front springs :scratch: :laugh:
Also koni yellow sport dampers say maxium 35 mm ride height drop so this must be taken into concideration if your car is lowered on 40mm springs or you want to go lower. also do we know what the spring spec is?
Very tempted at the price, just need to know what I'd actually be getting
Potentially yes to not including springs,but my only concern is the group-by (once I can spend the time to sort it) will become a wash with: can I just order 1x shock, I just want sprimgs etc etc etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
As for choice of spring, I don't know,i will have to ask the question?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT Tricky Nicky
Couldn't agree more! I too want to make 100% sure I'm getting thr right product & the right information!
I will answers all queries with facts:agree:
The 'Kit' is:
A pair of Phase 2 'adjustable' Koni sport shocks
A pair of Rear 'adjustable' Koni sport shocks
A pair of 40mm springs (yes 'unknown/uncommon brand & actual spec to be confirmed)
I will get a group-buy thread sorted next week, at present I've been out and about and doing everything from my phone, which is a pain in the arse.
Also, if ther are further questions on spec etc,then nows the time:agree:
Was that Koni head office? Koni Motorsport, if they are still going, in Sunbury or wherever?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
Is that all delivered to one person, or are they sending direct to the end users?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
eBay price of just the front pair = £357.60 delivered.
eBay seller says:
Fits: Renault R5 R5 Super GT-Turbo (C405) phase II 07.87-90
Notes: as from chassis no. F 02 7413 / K 025 7636
Part Nos: Fronts 8741/1167/Sport
Rears 26/1299/Sport
No-one has mentioned SSK10 apart from Mart.
Are they the Koni stated prices from fronts? Not the eBay seller?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
Is there a suggestion then that, provided the minimum order of 10 sets is met, they'll supply pairs, ie a front pair without rear shocks or springs?
It says that the max permitted drop is 35mm. Koni are saying 40mm. But maybe 10 years ago they did say 40mm to me as well.
I got my springs from someone who know someone at Burton Performance, who ordered direct from a spring maker. I specified the open length and springs rate. Took a couple of goes to get the drop about right, but got about -25mm or so. That seemed to be the same as, or more than, some of the so called -40. I did it by actual measurement before and after from the chassis to the floor.
Not Koni direct as such! - Company is called: Performance Parts Direct, the sole uk importer of Koni suspension.
The £price+VAT+Delivery - Is based on the goods being shipped from them, to the individuals address directly (the actual delivery charge is £10 per 'kit' or person!), that way, PPD are paid a lump some, and in effect the goods will be on a call-off basis 'this is all to be confirmed at point of payment' as understandbly there are issues to bare in mind, and more importantly - you pay your money and you want to know your getting what you paid for.
SSK10 - Is a kit, which includes 2xFronts Shocks & Springs - believe it or not, if purchasing this particular part no. the price shots up - i have it all written down, but not to hand at this precise minute - Basically they are the same shock, and the SSK10 is a redundant part no. manly down to Koni no longer making the springs
They are Koni (PPD) stated prices - Ignore the ebay seller, that was just an example of the item being offered!
Is there a suggestion then that, provided the minimum order of 10 sets is met, they'll supply pairs, ie a front pair without rear shocks or springs?
In a word: YES
It says that the max permitted drop is 35mm. Koni are saying 40mm. But maybe 10 years ago they did say 40mm to me as well.
They have stated 40mm is the limit yes?!
Hope this helps:agree:
When alls said and done: quantity is king it would appear:agree:
They acknowledge the R5 is 20yrs old, and haven't sold many items, which is the sole reason they are retailed at such inflated prices, pressume!
With a quantity of 'around' 10 - we are/will be placing an order larger than any distributor has for probably over 10 to 15 years.
I have further confirmed again, that they are the Yellow Koni sport adjustable (that would have been supplied in the SSK10 kit), and are suited for the Renault 5 gt turbo: Phase 2 from July 1987 - 1990:agree:
Believe me, i'm trying to get all the facts, because THE LAST thing i want is for this to be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!
So keep the queries coming if you have them?
And just to add further fuel to the fire:wasntme:-is this something the club would/should consider purchasing also?
That all sounds pretty good. Thanks for taking the time and making the effort :agree: :)
This is what I was considering. Maybe to just make up the numbers and get the group buy price I'd buy a couple of sets for the shop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
Not sure I'm confident that we'd get our money back if I bought 5 or 10 sets for the shop. 10 would be over £3000 to tie up in stock for maybe a couple or few years. With only about 500 5GTT on the road in the UK, there must be a fair few sets of good used shocks already sloshing around from the mass of recently scrapped cars. We may have to try and sell them abroad. But being heavy, as opposed to the orange dials, I'd guess that shipping would be a factor to over seas buyers.
Ian, I think you (ie, the club shop) would sell 10 kits - Going from this thread alone, there's 4 people genuinely interested already, plus yourself, for whichever components you're after.
That would leave 5 kits to sell - 500 odd members, plenty of trackday people, even the French/Euro guys, all to entertain the idea with.
Springs query aside, if the quoted front/rear shocks effectively make up what was the old SSK10 kit, then £320 truly is a good price for them.
Maybe it's worth asking our Ebay chum if he could supply a given spring rate with them (or perhaps he has a various selection for us to choose from), or alternatively, that we simply purchase the front & rear shocks only from him, and source our own springs - Again, this is another item that the club shop could sell.
Tmrw is a busy day for me at work 'practical completion'
So most likely Monday I'll clarify the springs queries:agree:
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
well done and top effort with work so far wallace.
pretty sure i've alreadyposted as such but just to say again i am defo up for a set of the konis so pls keep me posted. many thanks, will keep an eye on this thread cheers
Unfortunately I'm no more clued up on the springs-cant locate the manufacturers direct,and PPD can't give the actual spec
So I'm thinking the only way to proceed, Is to still offer the springs,but for guys wanting and needing specific spec springs then they don't order springs and source their own?
At this point,I'm ready money wise to get this group-buy happening, so when I'm next home at the wkend(and not doing things off my phone!),I'll get all the info down to encourage some more into the group-buy hopefully.and for the interested parties hopefully so kind of time line for this to be a done deal!
Once again, anymore questions or queries? _ all in agreement about the springs?
:agree:
Maybe start a new 'group buy' thread though, as all your work & effort (and the relevant information) has kinda been lost in this one.
Ian, are the club going to purchase any, or shall we just stick to plan A?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Absolutely:agree:
Just keeping this going so the group-buy thread doesn't get spammed to pieces:D
Could somebody confirm that rear shocks are suitable/the same for both the Phase 1 and Phase 2 cars please?
Rear shocks are the same on ph1/2.
And extra van for a cheaper rear suspension upgrade :laugh:
Thanks for that,just wnted to confirm I'd been given the correct info:agree:
Just getting the payment option confirmed, then we'll be ready to go:agree:
I realised one concern. There will be a warranty on the shocks that only PDD can give, not RTOC if we sell them many months down the line. I read on the internet that Koni are not a reliable as they were and may need that warranty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
So I don't know. First thing is to see how the group buy goes. Maybe that will be sufficient.
Unless PPD can confer upon the RTOC the ability to start the warranty from the date we sell them, rather than the date we buy them. And someone will need to keep them on behalf of the RTOC and ship them. I can see why PPD might be reluctant to trust the RTOC to not use the shocks, then pretend we didn't if they fail just after a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Valid point, I would have thought though that the warranty will start: once registered - as it does with any electronic equipment?
A point i will try to clarify:agree:
Hi, I will definitely be up for a set with springs! That is a great price:) quality!! Nice 1 for looking into this been after a set for a while :agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Warranty would begin from date of sale TO END USER - dated reciept requied, that is all! (paypal transaction reciept will surfice)
PPD offer 2yrs warranty on Koni suspension
I will end this thread just by saying,a group-buy is 100% going tohappen,I've been staying away a lot recently and the info is all at home.....plus doing everything on a mobile phone is not the one.
As mentioned in another thread,I'm dedicating my time to my family as much as possible at the minute...Just bare with me and we'll get the ball rolling
Thanks:agree:
Ian, given Wallace is a busy man, and without wishing to tread on his toes/steal his thunder, can the club not take over the group buy dealings? The warranty query (amongst others) has been answered, so the GB looks ready to roll.
No offence intended here Alex; just simply taking the pressure off you :agree:
I'm defo up for some of these :)
I'd take a full set I think. I've read most of the thread but just in case I missed something is this happening in the near future or are we just waiting on buyers to make up the numbers now? Or is the shop stepping in?
All I need to know is who do I pay and when, but count me in. :agree:
"The club", ie, the Committee, is a bit short of people to do this kind of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Lee did the exhaust manifolds and other stuff but he's retired. I think he was working from home and his Mrs runs a mail order business from home so were receiving and dispatching goods daily?
Wallace has all the info and has a vested interest as he wants some for himself.
At least we don't have to handle postage as Koni are posting direct.
The club will accrue payments and pay for the whole lot in one go.
The problem I think is with the springs.
Currently I don't have time to think about any of this. I don't run a Renault and may or may not be interested in having some for the Fiat but the cost and not knowing what springs I'd need, and the more or less nil values for used Fiat Cinquecento parts, even a brand new set of Konis I'd probably struggle to get £50 for, tempers my interest.
It would be useful to know the spring rating of those usually supplied with these Koni yellows, ie, lb / inch. And open length.
The one I eventually had were about 150lb/inch. And 8 1/2 inch open length but I'd have to check that. The problem was they were slightly lose with the front was jacked. I think Duncan Greer and TK had 300lb / inch. I don't know what was done to stop them falling out. Duncan had his Konis re-valved to have a softer bump setting due to the hard springs. And a maybe the range of adjustable bump raised a bit.
For the group buy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
What else :)
I'm excluded then?
;)
Here's 12 or so people:
Wallace
gttjames?
Nottswoody
Fishey?
Jonny Hogan
Big Steve - Raider
Logg (if under £350)
TNT Tricky Nicky
1988cab
MikeA
Numptysnumnuts
Mart
Mr Raider? (fronts only)
Been confirmed they will fit. So defo need a set as I think I am running on the stop ends at the moment:eek:
I'd only need a set of springs.
Is it possible?
If you mean all the oil has leaked out and they are not damping then that one thing, but if you mean your car is so low that it's sitting on the bump stops then that might ruin new shock absorbers. You'd perhaps need shortened shock to accommodate a drop of more then 40mm, or another Brand that Koni anyway as 40 is their stated maximum drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Numptysnumnuts
They may or may not be supplying springs. I think it might be good if we can source our own but that needs some co-operation from members who done this recently and know the spring rating, open length and ride height that the car settled to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
To order firmer springs you need a shorter open length. It needs to be correct or the car will sit too high or low.
I had about 180lb / inch on and that was a lot better than the standard springs. Then I got some custom made 250lb / inch and, whilst harder ride, was much better again for tight back road junctions and roundabouts. I sold those when I got some Konis which came with springs, softer, I don't know what rate, so tried them for a while, I preferred the harder ones as these supplied softer ones gave more under-steer especially noticeable on medium speed bends.
I expect I'd have re-fitted the harder springs but the engine broke and I never fixed it, so sold the 250's to Brad who sold them to Scott, who sold them...
I'd like to try 300lb / inch next if I were to use a 5GTT again.
Oil? Mine run on air at the moment and that's being serious. Hence the need for some new onesQuote:
If you mean all the oil has leaked out and they are not damping then that one thing, but if you mean your car is so low that it's sitting on the bump stops then that might ruin new shock absorbers. You'd perhaps need shortened shock to accommodate a drop of more then 40mm, or another Brand that Koni anyway as 40 is their stated maximum drop.
Do you mean all the oil has leaked out?
Some (most?) shock absorbers have an air bag in them to keep the oil pressurised to stop it frothing.
Shocks work by having a valve on a metal rod going up and down in a tube of oil. The valve resists oil flowing through it and this provides the damping.
There are no 'Gas Shocks'! The gas is the air bag up one end of a monotube or in the outer tube of a twin tube. The air pressure in the bag varies from make to make. Bilstein have very high pressure, Koni lower pressure. I think Spax have (had) no gas bag. The gas pressure shocks push the rods out as can be seen with Bilstein and Koni.
Ian - Mike and Tony are sorting my vehicle out and they have said the shocks have had it. There is virtually no play left in them and when he demonstrated to me he stated that its the rubbers stopping the shocks more than the shocks themselves.
Mart, Ian............
Just to reply to the previous posts.
No offence taken at all:agree: - I have no regard for 'ownership' over this group-buy, so 'if' the club wants (which i assume it doesn't) then the infomation is now readly available...........
Assuming we just go ahead as was, my family bereavement is drawing to a close, and further extended visit/stays away are over.
I am now back at home as of this weekend........have typed a 'group-buy' thread, which hopefully:D explains whats what........
All i want now is to reconfirm the prices (which i will do tmrw!), due to the fact that we'll be purchasing next year - I am massively assuming nothing is going to happen this side of christmas and am trying to take members with families into consideration?!
We will get the ball rolling this week, and i propose for the group-buy to finish (ie; paid up, names down, order sent!) latest beginning of Febuary?!
Hope that covers it:wasntme::agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeA
The money will be paid to the club - aiming for this to be a done deal beginning of Febuary.....
As far as numbers are concerned, this we will have to confirm once the agreed date/s of payments are also confirmed:agree: and at this point there will no doubt be drop outs i would assume........
Is the deal with the vendor that, to get the price, we make one single payment? After that we have to pay higher or full price for any subsequent one off or small orders orders?
Some people want these sooner it looks like.
Maybe we could ask who willing to pay now and who needs to wait 8 weeks?
The springs is the issue that needs to be resolved. I recall from Andrew Cookes Twingo project thread that he got some custom ones made. Maybe we can find out who that was, etc. Also we could ask people if they have any idea what spring rating they want. We could do with know the spec of the springs they supplied with the Koni kits over the years.
If any readers of this post have this info, info leading to this info, please post it here.
maybe do the group buy for just shocks all round as there seems to be some issues with spring choice, leave people to source own springs maybe?
The deal is 100% based on one bulk order, but they will be lenient with regards to actual quantities - they say 10+ but they arent going to quibble if we order only 9 for instance!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
If people want these sooner, i'm game for that too..............i only suggest Febuary to help people out as its basically xmas?!
I completely agree about the springs issue, i will try again tmrw, but as i have suggest previously - if you are particular about the springs, and i fail to get a concise answer, then the springs will be in the individuals court as to wether they order them from PPD or source there own!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gttjames
Absolutley - the springs will be an options from the group-buy, but for those that need particular spec springs, then it will be better to source their own......
Springs arent such a concern for me, they'll obviously fit, and be far better then my current set-up............at least i hope so:wasntme:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
Once the lists up, add your name and we'll see what quantities we have........i assume the only issue would be postage for yourself though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
Im sorry to say Jimmy but its not going to be possible:disagree:
If things progress as they are, and individuals make the purchase - then the company don't ship outside of the UK
Just something else to note, those that are following this thread
Postage to Southern Ireland is more - £15
And postage to the Channel Islands is more also - £23
Just looking into springs a little bit and need to post the info somewhere :)
Andrew Cookes Twingo suspension:
Post 473 onwards: https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...t=5149&page=10
AST springs: http://www.appliedspring.co.uk/
To convert the spring rates: Newtons x 5.7082 = Lbs
I phoned the company that was suggested, here is the result:
Leisure Force, phone number: 01422 370 770
Made in Sweden. Technical and head office in Sweden.
Their Renault 5 GTT springs Part No. 4572901
These are their quoted original spec for the lowered kit of the 5GTT:
20 (I assume that means 20Nm = 114 lbs per inch)
Open length 267mm
Lowering spring; -35mm from OE.
3 pairs in stock. Last ones. No plans to make any more.
Don't supply direct. Go via distributors:
eg:
Camberly motor factors
or
GSF
So we'll be needed to get custom springs then. Above suggested one they knew of but said he's a one man company and can be slow to deliver:
Custom springs from: South Yorkshire springs in Rotherham.
IIRC, 5GTT is about 600lb over each front wheel.
So 600 ÷ 114 = 5.263 inches drop. (133.7mm)
267mm - 133.7mm = 133.3mm between spring seats.
IIRC, my 250lb per inch springs: 600 ÷ 250 = 2.4 inches or 61mm drop.
8½ inch open length = 216mm between spring seats when loaded.
8¼ inch open length = 209.5mm between spring seats when loaded.
It would seem then that their "open length" of 267mm is in fact the loaded length. I don't think mine were a further 51mm drop from their -35mm drop. I seem to recall that mine were about 12mm drop from original. None of this makes sense!
I'm getting lost with all this. Is this offer going to be a full suspension set? i.e. shocks front and back including springs or is it just shocks or just springs :scratch:.
Why not make two seperate postings Suspension Springs and Supsension Shocks, if a name appears on both then thats what they need and if only on one then its their choice.
Me? whilst good at maths have no idea what Ian S is calculating but assume he knows what it all means. I just need my suspension sorted, I have no idea what springs I need but would rather get a complete set from one manufacturer including shocks. That way if the shocks leak or fail they can't turn round and say its becuase your using a spring thats not approved by them. All I do know that 40/40 sounds good to me (no idea what the ride height would look like. Just sounds even) and I assume at least allows me to drive round my estate without bottoming out on speed bumps.
It's not confusing :)
The springs appear to no longer be available that used to come with the kits that PPD, or who ever, supplied.
Wallace got a very good price on the set of four phase two shocks.
It might be possible to have just front shocks or rear shocks if the collective order is large enough.
For this group buy it seems that custom springs will need to be sought.
It fair and reasonable that some people might be better to try and get a kit (for twice the price) from a main seller if they feel less confused and happier that way, better warrantied, or don't want to wait for the more experience enthusiasts to work out what the best set up is and find somewhere to place an order for suitable springs.
I'm just helping out here. I don't really care. I'm not buying any for myself unless I try and get some for the Fiat I have, but I'm not sure I want to as that's a can or worms of it's own that I have to figure out all by myself as no-one on the fiat forums seems to know much about suspension or springs and I'm just not interested in pioneering this now on what is effectively an obsolete car with no used parts market. I did that 12 years ago with the 5GTT and moved on 6 years ago because I couldn't afford to keep the 5 going. If this group buy become too difficult then I'm sorry but I'm not going to do every bit of thinking for everyone here. Someone other than Wallace and I have to contribute something toward resolving the issues we're encountering and I mean contribute other than questions and criticism :)
Koni specify maximum drop of 40mm from original. But it's proving hard to find out what original is. No-one seems to know any more.
These cars and these kits are somewhere around 25 years old. The people who worked it all out and tested it all are probably retired now and I don't have any of their data. They kept it all secret?
As far I know Koni didn't approve any specific makes of spring.
It would be nice if someone other than me who has relevant experience of springs rates, etc, would add their knowledge to this thread :)
I read last night over at Clio Sport people talking about springs. Various people trying various springs and rates and handling around tracks. They have rear springs as well as fronts. 450lb front and 400lb rear. That's hard that is. Is that what we need? I've no idea!
I rang PPD. There are one pair of front shocks and no rears in stock at the moment and he felt there'd be none in the UK at any distributor as they are a very slow selling item now. Koni are making another batch of 50 front and 50 rear this month which will be available in Jan 2013. They will be held at Koni on Holland and probably sold to France, etc, unless we get out order in first. They are making another batch later in the year.
He's used the Swedish company Leisure Force to supply all the springs for the 'Koni Kits' for the 5GTT since the mid 1990's. So they are the 'official' spring.
part no:
front K 8741 1167 sport
rear K 26-1299 sport
He said he hadn't sold Fiat Cinquecento Koni Sport shocks for three years and they were taken out of production a year ago. Replaced with the non adjustable version I mentioned that are made in Spain to Koni Spec and the same valving as the softest setting on the Sport adjustables.
So there we have it :)
Good work Ian :agree:
Let's get the ball rolling & get our names on some of those 50 then :)
Thanks :)
Found some springs listed here. Don't know if they have them though.
http://www.motorsportworld.co.uk/ Can't get the page itself to show. Just the home page. You'll all have to just navigate to the Renault, suspension, springs section.
As those Leisure Force springs are only available to re-sellers, end users in this group buy may as well get them themselves.
If the RTOC buys them then there's postage to us, and then to the end user. Unless we can get a great discount from GSF or somewhere for all remaining three pairs.
People should make up their minds if they want these standard rate lowering springs or some firmer custom ones.
Then basically, if you're serious you should buy the springs now while you still can.
One advantage with these adjustable Konis, is that you can try some firmer springs and adjust up the rebound setting a bit. If you don't like them and get even harder springs, you can adjust them up some more. Eventually you might to get the bump setting softened a bit, if Koni will still do that for customers.
You'll have to make sure the open length is not too little of the springs fall out of the seats, I think 8½ inches might be OK but 9 inches to be more sure. With the 250 lb / inch springs I had, 9 inches would be about standard car height above the ground as, IIRC, what I had was about 12mm lowered. If anyone here wants to buy some like this I'll have to try and find the paperwork. Not sure I can though after all these years so you'll probably have to just try a set and be prepared to lost that money and try and second set that you've slightly adjusted the spec of.
You may need to adjust the rear height a bit to go with the height of your front springs.
I know this isn't the best question but can I not use my apex ones? Or I have some spax aswell? I haven't gone through the whole thread as I use my iPhone to come on here.. Cheers guys
Yes, you can, of course, use your existing standard or lowering springs, provided they are not more than 40mm lowering. :)
I have two types 40mm and 50mm currently on but I love the 50mm drop look will 10mm make that much a different to the shocks?
I'd be surprised if it really is 50mm lower than standard. My -12mm, or whatever is was, was about the same as most people so called -35mm or so.
It's been enough years now that I don't really remember, there've been many threads and posts about this going back to 1999 or so.
Mind you most suspension on these cars has sagged so they only way to mesure the drop is new against new originals i may be talking crap
One set of My springs was old but spotless the 50mm I bought new and they are Definatley different in heights that's one reason why I took the 16s off they were slightly catching on full lock.. On 15s now and no probs.. So we're saying 50mm won't be a problem then? I too am just worried about the warranty if anything may go south..
The question is are they 50 mm lower than standerd or are they more but if the koni suspension says no more than 40mm you cant put any thing lower or you will void warrenty
You have to make sure for yourself. If they fail in some way and you return them to Koni to take apart and find damage due to over lowering, then they won't be covered.
I fitted my lowering spring maybe 12 years ago. My original springs height compared to other peoples original springs height at the time.
So where would the shocks have to be sent back to if there was a fault? Is it a UK address?
There's no chance of me putting bigger springs in my car than my present 50mm. So this would invalidate any warranty on them?
I presume it's Farnborough, Hampshire and that's where they are being sent from after arriving in the UK from Holland; PPD Performance Parts Direct http://www.koni.uk.com .
Are they really 50mm though, as stated above. If they certainly are, then yes I expect that how it is. Koni state that, not lower than 40mm from OE for their yellow 'Sports Shocks': See here.
Thanks Ian. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Right does anyone have a measurement for standard suspension from the bottom of the body kit to the floor for a oe gtt?
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...ghlight=height
Running 50mm springs will just mean the shock will bottom out before the spring compresses enough to stop it. You might be alright as I think spring tolerance is something like 12+/- ~ but I might be wrong but it's surprising how much it can be out from spring to spring
WARRANTY is 100% with PERFORMANCE PARTS DIRECT (KONI UK) - So yes, if any problems they will be sent back to them.
As they will be shiping them to the individual direct, they will have a record of the purchase date,you info, and you have 2 years from that date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logg
It is agood point, but from personal experience, and i'm not saying this would happen............but.............whenever warranty is offered by these companies, you would phone up, say 'they are faulty' - send them back and they just repair or replace no questions asked.
As i say, i;m not saying this will be the case, but are they really going to know and prove you are at fault and not the product?
Personnally, i say no! - but it has to be considered i suppose?!
I sent a set of four back that I purchased from an RTOC member and they tested them and said the fronts were to far gone to repair and it would cost less to buy new.
It used to be the case with the rear shocks that they could not take them apart in the UK as they are high(ish) pressure gas charged mono tubes and they don't posses the equipment to do it. But the fronts they can service and revalve.
So I can only presume that if your newish shocks stop damping and you return them the first thing they will look at is to see of the valving is damaged through bottoming out. I've not heard of anyone who found this has happened to their Koni sports shocks though. But I don't know everyone :)
It can't be "centre of front wheel". That doesn't vary in height. Unless you fit bigger wheels, etc. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT Tricky Nicky
Ha ha, correct. If you measure from floor to "wheel centre". If you go "wheel centre to arch lip it
Can ;)
May as well measure floor to arch lip? Though that has a slope. Or floor to front jacking point. Or the bottom of the front bumper.
The question is what the Haynes say for the standard car.
Doesn't the Haynes have some lines drawn from the front, through some specific points to some other points? I haven't looked since what seems like the 1980's!! But must be later than that.
As I said Haynes tells you, I've not got it to hand.
I quickly checked as when I replied in the linked thread it was next to me, I gave the height and where it said to measure, I edited my post as I copied the info and removed the part which said I'd check and post up what it said. maybe someone who has it to hand could scan said page and upload it?
Wheel centre to arch will always stay the same, uneven floors to any other point on the car will always change. Where I park on my drive there are 4 dips which each wheel stops in so I know I've parked far enough up but not too close to the wall, if I measure the jacking point to floor it wouldn't be the same as parked on the road, you'd also have to take into consideration tyre profiles and pressures.
"when parked on a flat road", it's too obvious to mention, so I didn't!
I've just looked at the Haynes and if you can make that make sense give yourself a pat on the back :)
For the rear the Haynes says:
H4 - H5.
Which appears to me to be
(the height from the rear wheel centre to the ground) minus (the height from the centre of the torsion bar to the ground)
and is stated,
for the 5GTT up to 1988, as +20mm (+10mm -5mm).
for the 5GTT 1988 onwards, as +23mm (+10mm -5mm).
So that's not a height from the ground, just an angle. It's independent of wheel and tyre size.
That suggests to me that the centre of the torsion bar should be 23mm lower than the wheel centre.
Good luck with the front!
All I can tell for the front is that H1 = 101mm taller than H2.
From the inadequate drawing H1 or / and H2 may or may not be the wheel centre!
So nothing there states actual height from ground to anywhere either as the sum of this equation is dependant on the wheel and tyre height.
I do know, because I carefully measured it a few times and have it written down somewhere, that with the OE tyres the front tyre has quite a bit more squash than the rear tyre.
IIRC, it's 10mm more. And might be 5mm for the 15" wheels and 195 45 tyres.
Also, I found a bit of paper with some of my springs details written, dated 12th April 2000. Says the 250lb/" were 5½ turns and measured, before fitting to the car,
for one spring,
8¼ inches on one side of the spring and 8 on the other side of the same spring.
And for the other spring,
8¼ inches on one side of the spring and 8 1/8 on the other side of the same spring.
Sorry Ian, didn't mean it to come across as insulting your intelligence. Was a sweeping statement intended for everybody to understand why you can not take body ride heights from various points of any vehicle to the floor as there are too many variables to take into consideration.
The measurements must be taken from two points on the vehicle that won't change or be affected by these variables, hence the equations in the Haynes manual. It won't give you a body height from the ground clearance, just the distance between the two points.
I will also admit that I was wrong with my previously linked info as I gave what I thought at the time was correct and I hadn't spent enough time checking the facts, I had been in the garage working on my car, came in to check something in the articles against the Haynes.
When I have the manual infront of me again I will take another look and see what I can come up with. :)
It OK Nick I wasn't taking insult :) I just thought that no-one would need telling that. :)
To make comparisons I measured several specific places several times for each change, noting them down each time.
I don't seem to have heights with original springs.
But...
Seems I measured the open length of my 12 year old OE springs back in 2000.
11½ = 292mm
11¾ = 298mm
Leisure Force lowered kit of the 5GTT:
Open length 267mm
-35mm from OE.
So by that, the LF springs are -25 and -31mm from open length.
How that translates to final height will depend on the springs rating over the shorter length as a springs resistance to compression can increase as the spring is compressed. That might be partly why the first pair of springs I had done didn't drop enough. The manufacturer didn't specify at what point of compression, or full length, they were 180lb / inch. If they were 180 at full length, then 200 at -1 inch, we'd have under estimated.
I remembered that Koni man said that he had a 'tuning' company fit the shocks and springs to check the fit and heights. In the late 1980's I guess and then I expect again in the mid 1990's when he changed to the Leisure Force springs.
Very tempted with these, seems a good deal and possibly last chance to get a new set without paying silly money. Might need to get myself a xmas present lol
Waiting for payday (Tuesday) to make my mind up but its a bargin at that price an if I can manage it as I was aiming for feb buying them. Let you know Tuesday :)
Yeah, it's an amazing deal really, we appear to be getting the top level distributor price and we're not putting any profit on. So they're nearing ½ price?
I think this will be a one off purchase as we'd need to do a bulk buy each time and are there that many 5GTT owners in the UK who don't already have a set?
From what he said, they're not scheduled to be making any more after February of these yellow Sport Adjustable. I presume unless Koni receive Euro wide back orders to make worth their while.
I use mine daily so I hope they last better than the two second hand sets iv used in a yr :)
Were they 2nd hand Koni yellows?
They do wear out. The shiny rods were what was deemed to be beyond economical repair on the first set of used Konis I had. Also there was a valve in one front that was not really up to the job.
Koni have said in the past that the valves can be replaced.
Think that says alot two 2nd hand sets in a year, new ones at the group buy price cant be too much more than the cost of 2nd hand sets ;)
Lol true I just was spending the money elsewhere after buying the 5.. One was a set of apex and the other was some ultimate suspension from cgb.. I was new and a little wet behind the ears :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Raider
:scratch: So they weren't Koni shocks then?
No bud I haven't had konis before.. Did I say I had :scratch: sorry if it seemed that way I was always after this group buy but I bought the Ronals last month and that wiped my 5 funds out so Christ don't tell the mrs as the Ronals have cost me a holiday in the sun next year with the mrs and if she finds out I'm buying these she will chop my danglies off :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Not directly, just you mentioned this:
after several posts/pages about Koni shocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Just would've been good feedback in how they failed, but it's not Koni's, so not to worry.
We're not planning to get FSD's. I don't know what they are. Perhaps someone here could find out.
Sorry Ian delete it I was just looking at the returns part of the review.. The guy has one leak and sent it back and replaced no probs.. So surely that stands for all konis.. I'm sure they will be fine.. If I get my bonus I'm having a set..
:bla:
They will be - I've used Koni's since the mid 90's & never had a problem with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Quite wtf some unknown random geeza with a Mini & his Koni shocks has got to do with the price of fish, I don't know?! :D
It did prompt me to go and had a surf and I found some large distributor saying the Koni Sport yellow were the most reliable of the Koni's he sells.
They described the Koni FSD's as I was led to believe that Bilstein B6 are, ie, non linear valving that hold the car up with slow rise in pressure from corners but yield with bumps. That's my experience of them as well.