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I'm really thinking about changing my c1j for either the Renault 19 or the Williams but I'm very stuck as to which ones best and easiest.. Come on guys which should I go for? Seen some nice whole cars on eBay for about £1000 I recon I could make the money back after breaking the cars.. Talk to me :)
dont do it. Unless your going to turbo one of the 16'v's, a non turbo engine in an r5 to me is just dull.
Oh il be turboing it!! :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by djinuk
Unless your after big bhp figures i wouldnt bother tbh.
If I wanted an engine conversion and wanted to stick to turbo I'd probably be looking at dropping a Megane 225 lump in. I'm sure there's quite a lot of work involved in that but It'd be worth it! :)
That's exactly what I'm after.. I get bored very easily I baught a wreck of a 5 spent some cash onit and spent hrs learning the hardway what to do and what not todo met some great and not so great people driven the 5 daily got to we're I wanted tobe under my own steam and with help from some great members but with winter coming up I'm at the point of do I rebuild a 150000 mile c1j and get the same power I have now or start a new project and slap another Lump into it.. I mean Iv seen both cars on eBay for less than £800. I Fancie a new challenge. I don't like sitting still for too long and it's coming up to bonus time. I love road cycling and I neglected that since owning this 5 so I don't mind taking it off the road for upto a year plus I have the use of the mrs car. I want to get it done before we think of having our second child.. The mrs is getting bruuudy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigsy
We're is the place on here to read up on conversions?
Project reports would be best to look for ideas. Looks at Robbies F7P if going down that route, or a lot of the norwich lot and ipswich done the conversion, mines in the process of being changed over to silly power. Or even look at Penfolds F7P running bike carbs. Got Ashy F4R turbo conversion, Scoffs conversion are all great to read
How much power are you after? Anything over 230 imo an engine conversion is a good way to go, anything upto that and you may aswell stick with the C1J.
1.5 Bar from a decent sized t25 or a t28 if you can deal with the lag, with the right spec engine should see over 200hp relaibly;)
My conversion is a cheap conversion... Not a Powerful machine, i am not interested in 200+bhp
I will be lucky to get over 160... But its the way it drives.... And the sound :) oh and its cheap... I think my car owes me around £1200 (including buying the car, carbs, cage, buckets etc)
Well as much as I can get for as easy as I can get really I do t want to spend 1000s on fabbricating I really want it to be a backstreet build. I will take on all your guys knowledge as you are my experts.. I already have the t25 tomcat but i just find its pushing the little 1.4 a bit too much I haven't been disappointed yet by it but we always want more bhp for our £££Quote:
Originally Posted by GTphil
I will get reading and see which way to go.. Looking on eBay there's plenty of choices of cars to pick from its just which fits best for me todo in my limited garage :)
Cheers guys
Can someone define the cars and engines as its all new to me.. Just so I know what I'm looking for and what could be turboed or what is turboed and the bhp that it is or could be... Thanks
engine wise you can go for the 1.8 16v out of the early clio or the 2.0 16v out of the clio williams and of course the clio 172/182 engines, all these are ripe for some forced induction, im defo no expert with these engines but id imagine you will need to go forged for bigger power though
have you thought about going down the route of efi on the c1j engine mate :)
I haven't as such I just want to do things myself here at home and I wouldn't know we're to start efi wise? All pointers would be great.. I'm going to read up for a while and see what's possible.. Basically I would have a bag of sand to spend.. Not a huge budget I know but it's we're I'm at.. Thanks againQuote:
Originally Posted by philr5t
Was looking at the Williams as there's one for £800 with terrible metal worm but the engines goodQuote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
If you have only £1000 to spend on doing a turbo 16v engine then your best of staying with the C1J, to do it properly your need abit more than that i recon mate.
Cheers mark how much we talking? I have a grand but I can always saveQuote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
If it was me i'd have £2000 spare, there are alot of little bit that you never think of that always put the bill upQuote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Just off top of my head you'll need to machine the pistons or fit new ones so the comp ratio is right, poss full gasket set once you pulled it apart to do that, new exhaust manifold, a suitable turbo, downpipe, new oil feeds, mod block for oil return, ecu, injectors, pipework for water and boost, intercooler, etc
Thanks budQuote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Scratch that one then.. How much we taking for efi the c1j?
your going be talking around 1.5-2k to convert to efi once all mapping etc is done
I see we're this is going :) Williams it is then :agree: if im to covert I'm not after crazy stuff I travel 20miles a day to work and back I like a bit of fun inbetween I'm not after winning shows I want a track car but not into competing I just want a clean r5 that kicks modern cars asses :) perhaps I could rebuild the c1j for a grand?Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
For that same amount i have my 250bhp F7r turbo....
And i didn't even budget it out that much...
If you got a £1000 you could spend it on the current engine giving it a freshen up and tweek here and there, it'll still be a strong engine mate and easily keep up with mordern motorsQuote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
b18ft
That's the Volvo right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbo
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
The B18FT is a much more realiable and better built engine plus it has the bonus of having fuel injection.
To get them around the 200bhp mark it doesn't take too much to do, a case of bolting on some new items of other cars and then setting it up to make sure it fuels right. The basics will be a different camshaft (one from a Clio RSI works), T28 off 200SX, some Volvo T5 orange injectors, nice free flowing exhaust and better intercooler, de-limited ecu and your be getting close to the 200bhp with a it of boost too.
To explain how the carb work will take an age, there's alot to write and also how to tune them does take while to explain too. The knack is drilling or reducing the size of the right jets and not just increase the size of the main jet, it would take alittle while to do as you'll have to keep taking car for drive to see how it fuels and then mod it again.
I've been doing carbs for pretty much 10yrs mate and they finally have done my nut in, for me fuel injection is only way.....
This seems more my capabilities and good power and gears??
spend the cash on the c1j, get it puring, a nice turbo , and a cam/vernier/springs plus good setup/
I think what I should of done was ask for a passenger ride in the different engined 5s before making my mind up... I'm not diving into anything I will keep reading and keep watching.. It's Definatley coming off the road after pod so I have plenty of time.. Who has what conversions on here? I'm not going to be selling the 5 it's here to stay just Fancie something different.. Can't beet the comments I get off passes by the best one so far was today when I guy in his late 40s pulled up at the side is his family wagon both windows down and I heard him say " Renault 5 gt turbo you don't see them anymore.. So I looked over smiled and he said there like popping a cork" I smiled and said yep I love em.. That's when I thought need more power :)
Will ask coops to take you out in his F7P turbo clio makes me giggle everytime i go in it awesome fun think its around 280bhp :cool:
It's not a GTT if the C1J isn't in situ, imho.
It's from coops motor I got the 1st ideas his sounded sweet :)Quote:
Originally Posted by R5TURBORON
It's ok I can honestly see me keeping the c1j .. It's just not crazy enough for me yet Iv too used to a meesly 150bhp..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Get it up to ~230hp, and trust, you'll be grinning like a Cheshire cat :)
i still grin like a cheshire cat around 170 with a c1j :D
Mines running 162bhp @ 175ft lb always puts a smile on my face love the sound of a C1J :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
:agree: :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
That sounds more like it :) so next question is what have I got todo? Over the winter months?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
:agree:
Marts correct, after 200hp c1j's are completly bonkers, I honastly don't know how people get on with circa 400hp in a five:eek: fifth gear must just about be usable........:devil:
I have said it a few times now, since all these engine conversions 400hp is the new 200hp......
For me, stick with the c1j and spend that grand wisely and 200hp will be yours.
So could you guys do me list and I will start looking I already have a t25 I already have the cossie intercooler I have a green filter oh and I have a standard c1j
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTphil
and even after i lent you my 5 :(
imo, volvo. best value per £ compared to other conversions unless you want 250bhp. most people who've done the conversion sell their setup for more than the cost of the whole volvo car! (usually less than £500) it has efi, extra 300cc, already turbo'd, no liners, no push rods and will run 175bhp in std from just by upping the boost and a scoff mod for less than £50. takes alot of abuse and will do all day long (unless you trap the ecu vac pipe behind the dash!)
valvers and williams engine would be the next step, requiring alot more bolt on bits to make it turbo'd, prob double the cost of the volvo but prob still less than making a gtt efi to the same power. then next up is the 172 which wants harder to find or more custom bits but offers more gains in the long run. think you want to figure out what to use it for then go for a few passenger rides.
i have a b18ft complete with harness both ecus, turbo, alt, coil, injectors etc for £200 was planning on putting it in mine a few year back but nevr got round to it
i take it your still on standard cam? if so you want a 285 cam,springs and vernier to startQuote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Cheers bud but if I was doing this I'd buy the whole car running..Quote:
Originally Posted by groky
Yep all standard.. I know mike has his account now with piper now I think?Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
thats right im sure he will sort you a good deal as well :), id start with your cam, no real need for headwork, i only had it done as the engine was in bits for ages so it was rude not to lol
a good set up and run around 20-22psi should see you break the 200bhp barrier.
what mart says was true re 230bhp mine is just over that mark now and its bonkers my little neice loves it haha.
[quote=Haz;287144]and even after i lent you my 5 /[quote]
:laugh: I have to admit looking back when you lent my your five it was the Volvo lump with over 200hp, it was actually quite delightfull, efi made off boost driving much smoother. As an "out of the box" efi'd turbo'd lump it is probably the best way to go engine conversion wise on a limited budget.
I just can't help but love the c1j and now I have experienced one with similar power to your old Volvo lump I think it keeps the character of a GT turbo. I love the old c1j burble and when you hear one on full chat, well, they just sound awesome:D
I do however remember you absolutly used to kick your Volvo lumps head in day in day out, did loads and loads of pod runs with it and it never missed a beat. Weather or not I would do that with my c1j I'm not sure:scared::wasntme:
but surley the gears dont match the power? the little gearbox struggles now so what would it be like with another 50 horses?Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
[quote=GTphil;287152][quote=Haz;287144]and even after i lent you my 5 /Quote:
:laugh: I have to admit looking back when you lent my your five it was the Volvo lump with over 200hp, it was actually quite delightfull, efi made off boost driving much smoother. As an "out of the box" efi'd turbo'd lump it is probably the best way to go engine conversion wise on a limited budget.
I just can't help but love the c1j and now I have experienced one with similar power to your old Volvo lump I think it keeps the character of a GT turbo. I love the old c1j burble and when you hear one on full chat, well, they just sound awesome:D
I do however remember you absolutly used to kick your Volvo lumps head in day in day out, did loads and loads of pod runs with it and it never missed a beat. Weather or not I would do that with my c1j I'm not sure:scared::wasntme:
and thats my dilema i dont want to keep rebuilding the c1j and i do give it hell pretty much everyday.. like this morning on the way to work there was some crazy smells coming from it... but soon as i parked up it cooled down very quick and the smell vanished... sounded and pulled very nice at 1.4bar just stinky but i guess thats the old gals way of saying REBUILD ME BITCH!!!:D
the fact the lump is taking the abuse dished out to it daily while on a high mileage is testament to how good these little lumps are:D.
I bet that with a proper bottom end refresh with cam/vernier, bearings and rings you will be delighted with the difference - and it dont cost much if your doing it yourself.... and with 20psi running through it you will see way more than 150bhp:smokin:
with all the spare $$$ left over you can even treat the missus to keep her sweet from all the time you have been spending in the garage :laugh:..... win, win!
You wont get far on any of the 2.0l conversions with 1k.
A decent ECU will eat up over half the budget before you've even started.
c1js do smell when there hot, ive decided thats just because lol
Or why not do a rebuild and fit EFI to the c1j? Will be as reliable as any other modern day car ;)
Unless your wanting a 300 bhp+ and the clutch/gearbox issues that come with that much power just stick with the old C1J but just teach it a few new tricks. ;)
Nothing quite beats the reaction when explaining it's just a 1.4 push rod lump that's left them for dead. :wasntme:
paul i wish my car was road legal pal as id have no probs taking you out in it, and i could guarantee that you would have no doubts that you would want this c1j power.:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
It's the way I'm going to go.. Stick with the c1j I think it's my level of rebuild really. Dose it not kill drive shafts or gearboxes? I don't spin off from standing starts or anything I more bring it in then go for it after 2nd is there not any you tube vids of that kind of power on the track? Or pod runs?Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
Its torque that kills gearboxs and driveshafts, not power ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Unless your pushing more than 300ft lb or torque then your be absolutely fine with the box and shafts
Infact blunty do you have the link to my car when the last owner had 200+ out of her?
Phew :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
i dont have any links to vids of it, i could ask ste if he has any though? it did 224bhp at 18psi iirc was very lean though like 14afr
From the state I Bought the car in and the level of his mechanic skills I'm not surprised at all.. If you could that would be great..Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
So anyone Fancie knocking me up a parts list of what's needed? Would be very greatfull and I might even buy you a curly wurly for it :)
285 Cam kitQuote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Decent spec turbo (T25 or T28)
All gaskets (bottom end and headset)
Good sized downpipe and exhaust
Well set up carb
Good working fuel system
Thats only basic list of bits needed, it all really depends your spec now and how old the parts are
For me i would throw in a light flywheel too but thats just me, also if you approching 230bhp or 200-220ft lb torque i would look into new paddle clutch also
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
That's not bad then really carbs fully rebuilt flywheel I can have done fuel system is already new it's just the cam and things really then I was going to put new rings in? Liners? Theres nothing wrong with the engine it's good but if it's out it's got to be worth rebuilding the lot? Just because I don't know the age and if it's been built before.. Or should I leave it? It has the thicker headgasket on as we did that last month.. You don't think the tomcats upto it? It's only a 1000 miles old really I have standar down pipe and 2nhalf magnex on at the min 4x4 intercooler and green filter.. I have the AFR gauge aswell..
Might be worth fitting new rings, if pistons and liner are in good condition and within tolernace then no need to change them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
To do cam you'll need to take head off so another headgasket mate i'm afraid, I have had 230bhp from a T25 turbo which was based on a tomcat turbo but it wasn't identical to a Tomcat, few little changes.
For me i would go bigger downpipe and ehxaust, at least 2 1/4" downpipe and system, 4x4 intercooler should be ok but i've never used one so not sure how well they cool
the tomcat will easily do 200bhp fella.
Would it need skimming again as it was down to 73mm on the last skim.. .. That's a shame about the exhaust as I chucked the one that came with it as it fit ****e.. I'm sure someone will have one around but that's for a later date.. I take it the bible will be needed (Haynes) for tolerances so no need to resell or bearings and regrind the cranck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
If its still flat you won't need to skim it although if your head is at 73mm thats getting alittle thin now
I think it was 73.9Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Double check it to be sure, if its 73.9mm thats abit more than factory although i'm sure some later heads came as 74mm, if its more than 73mm exactly you'll be ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Just a thought, depending on how much power you want to go the set up is key even though you have all the parts to do the job if its not set up right it'll either not produce the power or worse kill the engine.
Sorry checked my last thread it was 73.2 then fitted with the 1.9 gasketQuote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Well im hoping with all your guys help I should be able to set it up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Thats ok for now but getting close to border line for me, depending on boost you running might look into ways of dropping comp ratio abit to compensate for skimmed headQuote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
I'm running 1.4bar at the min but my gauge is fed off the standard in car pipe if that make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
Measuring from carb top then? Unless its been changed around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
I would move it into the aei line and see what boost your at then mate :)
So which would it be more :yeah: or less boost :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny5
Aei line will show Boost and also vaccum. Will more than likely show a drop as its measured after the carb. Meaning you can turn the boost up more to get a true 1.4 bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Using the Aei line also gives a more accurate reading of what the engine is actually seeing.
Well as look has it I have a spare t on the aei vac will change it asap but busy this weekend with a wedding I can't get out of :)
I recon you're only going to be running about 1.2 bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Who has a full c1j rebuild with fast road cam on there thread the more detailed the better please guys..
Any one? Will be starting this next week also could I make modifications to the head and manifolds? I.e smooth the ports? Basiclly I will try all tested tricks to get those reliable horses out this 5..Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
Have a look in my profile, all done in 2008/2009 :agree:
Keep the head standard unless you have money to burn.
I think a good c1j, forged up running a good turbo and set up correctly does the job in a 5 very well. If you are thinking of going 16v then the F7P and the Williams F7R will be the easiest to get up and running as they are pretty basic and still run the dizzy. The F7RT from the Megane would be a great choice, you can get a whole car for about 2-3k now so you would have all the parts you need if you wanted to swap it over. It all depends on how much you would like to spend...
The F7R/F7P are a non turbo engines as you know but the bonus is you'll get an engine complete or a car for £500 and then you can start throwing money at it to handle a turbo. Or for the same price (ish inc everything you have done to the F7P/R to get it to turbo stage) would the easier option be just to buy a turbo'd engine to start with F4RT for example? (swings and rounderbouts really)
All depends on your preference, if you want fun doing it, money you want to spend, and if you want to be different.
I will be keeping the C1J in my 5 GTT but once thats all finished i'll hopefully be putting the 225 F4RT in my 19 16v cabriolet. I used to have a tuned volvo 480 turbo (B18FT) that it drove about in for abit, I bought the car just for the engine to put in my last 19 16v cabriolet. The engine was reliable but I didn't really rate it to be honest, maybe it would have been different in a 5 with a better power to weight ratio, the volvo is a big heavy car.
My aime is to only mod myself no shops having my money was just wondering if people had successfully done there own mods on the c1j engines? I only plan on cam and lighten the flywheel really unless there is other free things I can do to it while rebuilding a c1jQuote:
Originally Posted by Brigsy
Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLY-R5GTT
quality info bud thanks
but im sticking with a rebuild on a c1j fast road cam pistons etc etc i cant afford all this forged items so far the c1j has taken all i give it but it really needs a cam and a freshen up. i saw an mot that said 152000 on the clock my clock says 70000 on yer right :laugh: the engine i have in runs sweet as a nut but while i put the cam in it would be rude not to rebuild it as the car is staying with me till the dreaded tin worm gets it..
No prob mate :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
I'm in the exact same boat at the moment, whist my 5 is away getting painted I hope to start on my engine.
I will be keeping it carb (modded), running a 285 cam, T25 hybrid (through experience the T25 hybrid is my preferred choice, not necessarily the best depends on what your driving style is) front mount (behind bumper), ported and polished head, and forged interals so I can hopefully run big boost safely. It has to be done right because it's going to be my every day car :laugh:
Your exactly right though, whist the engine is out you might aswell give it a rebuild to save time and cost in the future.
Have you also thought about just building a bottom end from an old block and keeping your car on the road at the same time? And if your engine is good, why not keep it as a spare and don't split the head and block just incase something happens in the future... You'll get a spare head and block to start from scratch for £50-100 :)
I've never rebuilt a 5 engine if it's been running perfect, i'll take it out and swap it over with an engine I have built from an old head and block :agree:
thats exactly what im doing im picking a block and head up on monday off a member for £130 i wont be rushing this as funds will be getting tighter as the holidays are coming and im going to propose to the mrs on new years eve.. this also is my everyday car but i can do without it for a while if needed. same spec really just nothing forged.. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BILLY-R5GTT
Imho you don't need to go forged unless you're looking at running Glenn (Hi 5)/Stuart Clark/Dave Reed esque power levels.
Likewise, the o.e airbox isn't that restrictive - If you believe RR shpiel, my old Raider was running ~240hp/112mph traps at Pod with the o.e 'box in situ.
well i have a green air filter cossie 4x4 ic t25 tomcat at 1.4bar modded carb to suit and i boot mine everyday its been fine so far but the engine only came up 154bhp so im guessing cam is the way forward for more power?:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Spot on mate :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
If you enjoy it as it is, why the need to up the power? I also wouldn't worry too much about RR power figures :crap: ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
A larger blower will naturally have a slower/delayed spool-up response (read will feel 'laggier' to drive), plus the characteristics of a hotter cam dictate the peak power range will shift up the rev scale, meaning you'll lose the low down 'grunt', and reduce the overall power band if you don't plan on rev'ing the engine much past the redline/wherever you rev it to now.
Horses for courses though - Depends what you want from the car?
Imho, improving the handling/braking of your GTT will net you a bigger grin factor, unless you're just after hp bragging rights...
I respect your knowledge bud I have lowered suspension with apex strats and grooved discs front and back and the 185mm discs in the front.. I'm after an all rounder really track and pod runner but this is my everyday car aswell it's quick now but is it ever enough? I get bored very easily and once one project is over I want another.. I'm off next week so rebuilding the steering out Iv only got the track rod ends left todo as Iv replaced everything else also have some new boots while I'm at it.. Then maybe a scrub underneath and a repaint ready for winter..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Power Engineering?:cartman:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart