Hi guys i m looking in efi my c1j but had fond noting on what is the best way to make the inlet manifold and what more it needs like sensors vacuum in the inlet any help please
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Hi guys i m looking in efi my c1j but had fond noting on what is the best way to make the inlet manifold and what more it needs like sensors vacuum in the inlet any help please
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
Micheal Tierney makes modified OE inlet's for injection, wether there any good I have no idea as not many peeps comment or even mention.
is there any link for it ? i dont now who is heQuote:
Originally Posted by James5
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
Here you go
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349
tank you manQuote:
Originally Posted by James5
I'm using his efi inlet right now, its spot on :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by James5
spot on at 120bhp u mean :cooter:Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Quote:
Originally Posted by markey b
from what ive seen of it ,its not a bad bit of kit, it seems to go well even at 7 psi:laugh::laugh::laugh:,and returns good mpg ,which is a really BIG plus:)
depends what the costs are /compared to building your own:)
i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect
that will all depend what stand alone ecu you use, adaptronic, emerald.omex ... etc ..etc theres loads out there, most ecu's will have there own sensors , to run the stand alone software but you will still use your renault clocks / gauges ,for fuel level,water temp,oil pressure,speedo /tachoQuote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
tank you for the help a+Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
i fitted the air temp sensor before the throttle body and water temp sensor would be tapped into the cylinder head plate (gearbox side) on the c1j engine:cool:
Basic kit would be ; -Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
1. ECU
2. Water Temp sensor.
3. Lambda sensor.
4. Map Sensor.
5.throttle position sensor.
And I think that should have you up and running. Other sensors are optional for additional bennifits / confusion.
130 actually, haven't turned the boost up yet with this setup, previous setup made 211 with a major missfire, this should put out 230ishQuote:
Originally Posted by markey b
nice tank you for the help guys i was looking at the adaptronic ecu any advice on itQuote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Can't really help with that as I have the Emerald but I've had a play about with the adaptronic software and the setup looks goodQuote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
Here is mine:
http://www.renaultclub.hu/inlet.jpg
R21t throttle body and elbow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
I am liking that, who made that any more pics of your setup:D
I would add IAT (Inlet Air Temp) to that list too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
top job that, james :cool:
nice set-up you have ther what is the fuel rail off or is customQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
mine will be for sale but it will be about 6 months look at profile and mine will take 35 psi of boost :D
It is custom.Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
no fair you are doing a better one for your self :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Hi 5
i carnt make a better one son changing car after beating janni santi on with new project.Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
That is looking sweet Jimmy! I love the 'keeping it Renault' theme!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT
Here's my Alliance Manifold:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=1254
The 4 bolt throttle body attachment is the same spacing as a CS172 which is what I'll probably upgrade to if I ever get the damn thing running! :wasntme:
no dis-respect, but all these designs utilise too much of the standard manifold, you need to bin it, you need more volume to make more power, (andy cookes was a great example from back in the day). i would just use the flange of the stanard mani, then sheet metal fabrictate the rest, decide on your hp goals, then calculate optimum plenum volume and runner length (lots of data online), and knock one up.
as markey correctly states, the standard jobby is great at 120hp, and will make more of course, but once your getting upwards of double standard output, its wayyy off its design objectives, and far from efficent.
Sorry, what part of an Alliance manifold is std GTT?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing
I would never assume that it is the perfect design but, it's power producing properties are far from proven. I would guess that the plenum is about a litre in volume, maybe 1.5 which is not far off the supposed 1-1.4:1 ratio guide of plenum to engine size guide.
All you need to do now is wait for the next 10 years for me to finish it! :cooter:
but the engines effective size is muliplied by boost....
on the hondas which are 1800cc, there run upto 6l volume, you do the math :)
Fair point Rob. :agree:
Space would be an issue for 4-5 litres of plenum in a GTT? I think you could probably squeeze in a good 3 litres worth?
I guess your point is that none of these manifolds (Alliance aside) have a plenum of any kind in the true sense.
Here's a good article for the yank publication 'Modified Magazine' that I subscribe to:
http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/intakemani.pdf
What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it
I did look into it a while ago and yes it can be done but the minimum numbers required at the time just didn't make it cost effective (500 min). Some company in Turkey that does sand cast replicas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
500:eek: holy ****, there's gotta be someone else that'd do a smaller batchQuote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
I reckon there probably is someone somewhere that will do smaller numbers. I seem to remember a company at Autosport that could do a smaller batch but, I have no idea what their company name was?
It must have been in 2006 (last time I went!).
But like Rob just said, its not a manifold you want to copy. You could improve on that design a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Too true Scoff. In the article that I posted above it suggested that the plenum should be 1.5-2.0 times the engine capacity and maybe more on a turbocharged engine. The Alliance was a normally aspirated car and the only reason the Californian model has multi-point injection was to meet the emissions requirement for that state.
I will say that if you were going to design a manifold for semi-mass production, you'd probably want it to be cast aluminium alloy as it's cheaper. That's not to say a low production hand made manifold cant be done. A few jigs etc could see something very worthwhile come together for reasonable cash but, it would need to be developed and be a proven performer before hand.
I've think it would be a miricle if you could get even 10 serious customers, even if the cost was sub £500. Reality is that it will cost more than that if quantities are that small. Maybe if the other hardware and tuning costs were lower there might be more interested people.
Re plenum volume, I'd go for 1.5x engine capacity x boost (bar, absolute), if you have the room :)
Are the runners included in the volume capacity? If thats the correct terminology?
not normally, though runner lenth, and bore has an effect.
see below for classic examples...
http://www.edelbrock.com/sportcompac...ani_perf.shtml
http://www.edelbrock.com/sportcompac...ani_vict.shtml
now both of these manifolds are for the same engine, you can see the clear differances in design for differant output levels, and power delivery.
Rob, I'm scared my new inlet manifold may actually be too large :D I'll be after your 72mm unit ;)
I think you're right. There just isn't the market for developing EFI on the C1J anymore. 10 yrs ago an all inclusive kit with proven numbers would have sold quite well, especially as it no doubt would have been better on the juice and more driveable/tractable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
I would love to have the cash available just to finish my Alliance/Megasquirt set up and actual post up some dyno graphs. Not so much for the numbers but for the shape of the curves. One day.......:rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
with enough boost to fill it it be fine :)
the days of 25psi being high boost are long gone :D
My plan is to measure the car with this 'carb style' inlet than develope another with plenum and make comparative measurements.
And I'll ask all your help with the development of the new inlet! ;)
Worth reading:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...est-Results***
Some time in 2015 I'm going to take my Alliance manifold to a local Abrasive Flow Machining (extrude honing) joint to see what they can offer. The pictures on their website 'look' pretty encouraging?
http://www.abrasiveflow.com/aboutus.htm
i especially like the fact that they flow test the manifold before and after. Obviously that doesn't take the head into account but a fair indication of their work.
Fair play on sniffing out an Alliance manifold - I hunted high & low for one of them years ago to no avail.
Sure, not the best manifold in existence, but better (read less restrictive, and the fact that it's pretty much bolt-on) than the 25mm venturi/32mm t.plate of the o.e carb.
25psi is for running in, isn't it ? ;) That borg warner of yours won't think anything of 2.5bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing
You blokes have got a boost problem you need to speak to someone about :cooter:.
It took three years Mart but, when I found one it came at a bargain price!:smokin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Scoffs getting hot under the collar from our new B18 build and a 72mm blower ;)
:laugh:
The key difference between those manifolds is gas velocity in the runner and hence port. The cfm rating is not the full story on it's own, but tuning the gas column velocity in the rpm range you wish to achieve peak power, and peak torque. The instantaneous cylinder fill (on valve opening) first has to be provided by the valve bowl area and then port volume - gulp if you like, then you need to get the gas column going in the right direction isn't easy, especially at high rpm. If you are only working in a very narrow rpm range and low down flexibility isn't required, then massive ports, runners and plenum volume is the way to go to ensure the cylinder can achieve maximum fill - gulp at high rpm. However, at low rpm the velocity will be poor and the cylinder fill will be poor likewise, just a trade off. All good stuff :)
these guys do some interesting work for the hondas....
http://www.bmcrace.com/
they offer a "modular" race inlet manifold, with has seperate bolt on plenums, so racers can experiment with differant plenum volumes to tweak torque curves, they also do a vast option of runner lenth/width configurations to go with the inter-changable plenums.
great for testing :)
they actually post on discussions on the forums, and take feedback etc, they have even just loaned there lastest design race mani to the biggest guy in honda tuning (miller) for independant testing on his car, and have asked him to post dyno results of before and after, which i was quite impressed with :)
i doubt there cheap, but they do anything custom, im sure if someone sent them a flange, or even full standard inlet mani, they could knock something up, i bet it would be cheaper than finding a casting company who will need to make moulds etc :)
I think there is someone here who will make one off manifolds, can't think of his name though...
Rather Large James rings a bell? :)
Lots of peoplemon this forum have said that the tubular exhaust manifolds offer little gain on a carb C1J but is it worth it when used in conjunction with an efficient EFI manifold and set up?
I would still love to do twin scroll but funds, like most, are holding me back. That said, if the Aussie dollar gets any stronger, that might not be an issue! Who am I kidding!?!?!
sorry for dragging this thread up again but there seems to be conflicting stuff all over this site about efi manifolds, so........
im looking into it and been looking at michael tierneys new manifold, just pm'ed him about it, but this looks like it uses the same gtt inlet manifold, i understand what people are saying about this, ultimately it was never designed for this, but at the end of the day, are people running these getting better power thoughout the rev range with good afr readings? from what i have read they seem to be working ok?
im not after massive power from it, more interested in the reliability side of it tbh, although a nice power increase will be a bonus, my spec at moment is a t25 turbo, 285 cam and a fmic, thinking of adding a polished ported head on with the efi
so for a mildy specced motor is it ok?:scratch:
MT's manifold adaptor will work just fine. The above thread is looking at a best effort design.
I'd have the inlet and exhaust ports matched to their respective manifolds (after you've got the MT manifold) and wouldn't worry about porting the head itself, especially if you're not after max power.
my latest offering
Looks good, if only that was available when I done emmas efi LPG conversion
This is the manifold I made....
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=11
Looks like the early escort rs turbo manifold that was two parts. That will make it very easy for people to go efi.
I have read you can also get 60-2 flywheels that fits the c1j, that have a 200 mm clutch and possibly even 215mm clutch but I need to try it out.
Good work
Looks good :agree: might be interested in one for the van ;)
When i had a glanza there was a company that made very good manifolds for the jap cars,i did pm him once asking if he'd would make an efi manifold for the c1j and he said that he would do it.
here's a link to the site.
http://www.race-tech.net/index.php?m...ex&cPath=2_4_7
pretty sure he'd knock up some 1 piece downpipes too!
did he actually knock anything up for the c1J?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayls
not a manifold thats easily made...space is too tight and thats why i had to go up instead of out and i could only come up 8inches.
I still need to count the teeth, but I'm 90% sure I have a 60-2 flywheel, it's certainly not like my GTT one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
Have a read at the second last post....Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=101&t=35973
It looks like the k7m will fit with 200mm clutch and 60-2, on a c1j but not sure about the k4m with it's 215mm clutch......be good if we could test this out
No need to mess around wit 36-1 wheels on the crank shaft pulley if this was the case.
i'll hopefully have another alternative to this manifold in about 2 weeks time...depends on the weather and a bit of luck!!:)
another offering...long manifold...long time comming:)
1139
ah the old rover t16 turbo inlet
I'm liking your latest offerings Michael. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
a couple more different veiws with clearences over oil feed and actuator
Just won a K7M flywheel on the bay. Will let you all know how it measures upQuote:
Originally Posted by Miller
:cool:
:agree:Looks awesome, not sure on injector's and rail location being behind the inlet and just above the exhaust manifold, I assume done due to best angle for injecting:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke
because the engine leans back into the bulkhead and the bulkhead gets narrow i did it this way..the injectors squirt directly at the combustion chamber front wall...when the valve is open of course!
Andy has it turned up..... And more to the point does it fit
Michael, do you think it would fit with a bigger turbo like a t25 or even a t28. These turbos normally use a -31 actuator and they themselves are much bigger than standard?
I just wish you were making these when I made my manifold, it was the longest and hardest part of the conversion to do. Keep up the good work.
Chris
ANO not yet Chris, should be Monday. I'll let you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
the ford one won't have an issue with the actuator....the rover one leaves about 10mm clearance between it and the actuator pipe...but if the scroll is much bigger and the actuator ect then it'll be too tight!I might end up grafting the throttle to the manifold somewhere else:(
i offered to make some more like mine i made but no one wanted to pay the price a lot of work go,s into it but look in my profile under new 2010
great looking manifold glenn...your not afraid of using boost!:D
chears pal on testing we managed 38psi on nos lol:D:D:D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
Just out of interest glenn , what kinda ball park figure you talking for them inlet manifolds ????
what was the rough price of your mani? thanks allanQuote:
Originally Posted by Hi 5
if i could get a order for 3 of them i should be able to do them for about £550 and i would only break even at that thanks glennQuote:
Originally Posted by allanr5gtt
good work pal i carnt do 2-3 weeks it would be more like 6 months as am too busy racing and working:DQuote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
That price is very tempting, proper inlet manifold :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi 5
any one seen this one, not that tidy tho
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Renault-5-GT-T...item1c1c57cb23
lol.......................... i think micheal offers some very good options for people at sensible priceQuote:
Originally Posted by allanr5gtt
his calculation assumes no boost too :(
i dont under stand ?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing
Rob might mean i hav'nt run it yet....which i hav'nt......i'll probably be going efi in about 6 months...driven of course by the price of petrol!!!
i should have a few pics of the manifolds on-car ect within the next few days,i have to see what the clearances are for my t25 tomcat turbo:)and the bonnet clearances for the rs type manifold!
So as not to hijackQuote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthrea...363#post224363
:cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
no sorry i was referring to the ebay manifold he quotes a 2.1 litre capacity, (1.5x1400cc), i was saying he taking no account of how much boost the customer will run.
when i get a bit of time,which is severly restricted at the moment,i'll measure the volumes of the rs and rover headers Rob!!:)
1.5 litres in the black rover item,RS one is more difficult to do, i'd say its only slightly less though!!
just as an update...progress is very slow as i'm taking care of my 80yearold dad who has cancer so i'll post pics of the engine mock-up when i can!!no promises though!!
Sorry to hear that Micheal, I think most people will have experience with this also, I don't think the EFI is the priority here. Take care.Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
just a bit of progress and a bit of welding on the way!!
just tried a few different types out for size,the rs-1 fits really well:)
the rover i have modded, as i cut it too short and the throttle would have been too high..........the fuel rail pipes just need to be shortened,
the unmodded rover item has issues but none if its going on to a standard t2....the one on the car is a tomcat t25 the large oil adaptor is the problem.....a few more pics to follow of a modded rover manifold with flange well up over turbo:)
this is a modded rover item...drilled to accept the volvo or weber t/body....gives good clearance above the turbo
:)should have a pic of another set up soon but more a budget type...poss around the £300 mark!!
Will that design be able to use the standard boost pipe setup?
You probably can with the Ford set up but, not with the Rover set up. Michael will need to confirm throttle body outside diameter and I would have thought that you might need a joiner and some kind of reducer?
the budget design will have an origional hose setup...maybe a reducer elbow..same as the ford...from memory i think the ford t/b is larger than 2 1/4":scratch:
as promised ages ago, I said, when I can I'd get some MPG figures up on the new EFI set up, well here it is...
Now I don't normally drive it that far, but my Audi's wheel bearing in nackered and I promised me mum I'd visit her :D So that's a journey from london the Sheffield :eek:
I'm very pleased that I was averaging 35mpg, which isn't bad going as it hasn't really had loads of time spent on the map for easy driving... Also on shell V power and 550cc injectors..
This is with micheal's adapter manifold idea.. Also performance is great too, managed and 11.7 SQM (without gas) and with 60hp of gas an 11.2, so all in all I reckon it work's pretty damn well tbh :D:D:D:D
Hope this info helps others think of going this route.
ongoing work....fuel rails are problematic but getting there....injector angle is down to 35 degrees which is about max plus there's no welding on this manifold:)
Micheal, you really need to make a batch of manifolds and rails!:D
i agree:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by MATT C Ringworm Tuning
certainly do! waiting on a few of these to modify at the mo plus alu bar to make the fuel rails!...i'll post more pics as they happen...good thread is'nt it!!:)
Did anyone off here buy this one off ebay a good few weeks back???
Michael, good to see you're still dipping your fingers into the homebrew efi manifolds :agree: :cool:
I'm still grateful for that manifold you sent me all those years back, which, unfortunately, never materialised into a full efi setup on my old Raider :(
I think if you could make a decent enough batch of manifolds, you'd have no problem shifting them, given the tides are turning in favour of efi these days, and that Scoff is running the Adaptronic show.
Perhaps another item for the Committee to consider buying (a batch of) & then selling via the club shop...?
they're only available to u guys(the club) anyway!!:)
What cost for one mateQuote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
i'm going to make a couple of varients.....possible between 150 and 400€ !
can you send me the list whit the prices pleasQuote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
So guys what are the electrical parts that you need for the efi forgeting the ecu and the coil pack any one can make a list tanks:ashamed:
i fond that i will need the EDIS 4 module is that rite guys
sorry daniel i did'nt see that post(or else forgot)i'll be posting a few more pics as they come up and i'll have a few prices for u!!
next one i'll have will have the carb throttle modded for a switch with the injectors!
it might take a bit longer because i have to do a bit of casting and the weather is poxy lately!!!(an outdoor activity)plus the price of metal is not too bad but postage from UK is getting a bit rediculous!:cry:
proto finished....had to fit extra bolt for stability..origional throttle with brackets fitted for cable and spring...takes an RSturbo switch(large bosch type)
pipe adaptor tapers down to 32mm throttle dia.
this one is not water heated
Looking sweet as my friend. What are the main advantages over your first incarnation?Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
origional bits and compactness:)
Any increase in CC?Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
Any need for an increase??
:agree:looks fantastic :D
i suppose the car did,nt do too bad on the origional manifold.....origional bits ectQuote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
my other attempts had larger cc,s
Beautiful work as ever Michael. If the price is right, you're on to a winner there.:agree:
Hi Michael, any progress on the manifold?
I need one...
Lex latest,not included are injectors,acc spring,throttle clamp,throttle switch
Nice work Michael. :agree:
It would be great to do a before and after dyno run to get some power/torque curves and a road test to assess drivability improvements.
it would be great!!costs money though,we know the efi is going to be better!! at this stage it's all about fuel economy...the price of the stuff is rediculous!! 1.57€/litre over here!!
On a personal note - I have Michael's first incarnation and have achieved the 200bhp / 239 ftlb I was after (95 ron fuel) and feels very angry.:)
andy,did u try advancing the timing alot at tickover and light throttle?
you'll have to speak to Scoff about that - all I know is that it now ticks over fine hot / cold whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
900rpm before anyone asks.
and no, no icv as yet.
The important thing here is are you gona to sell me one :pQuote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
Are there any rough prices at all?
I have completed my efi c1j and it pay up very well
Thats not bad way of doing it, you got any close ups of the manifold?Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
Don't worry not looking to copy it, i've moved away from C1J's myself ;)
No i don t have any and ther is noting to copy noting special on it s ownQuote:
Originally Posted by Markey Mark (BD)
more modified manifolds for sale here; https://www.rtoc.org/boards/showthread.php?t=30591
met micheal today he's a top bloke and i robbed him blind! picked up a lovely cast manifold and tb.
@micheal what tps did i need again and what goes where on the tb? pipe wise
rsturbo switch is a bosch.....0280 120 302......i'm sure scoff has an equivalent one!
they're 2 water heater brass fittings(8mm i think) and a vac one(map sensor)...also an idle bypass for your idle valve and the larger one i would blank!
good to meet you robert and vera too!!:)
There is a super cheap alternative to be had on the inlet manifold on a c1j, it's virtually bolt on and costs less than £50. Chris Miller will be playing with this at some point. It will be interesting to see what comes of it.
A rather scrappy gtt might be running one too in the new year. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
Old news and very close to bulkhead / servo!:D
Very good find though.:agree:
It had been postulated that it may struggle to flow enough to be useful for big boost / high output applications. I wait with batted breath.
i wish he'ed hurry up!!:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
I have one! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
There's no rushing ol Scottie, certainly not over the past few days LOL:beer::beer::beer:Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
i got one of those skoda manifolds about 4 years ago but the runners are too small 25mm diameter i think and too long and thin to increase,the manifold i think hit the down pipe(its for an engine that leans fwd,not back like c1j)....the injector angles wer'nt good...so i cut it up and melted it down:(
New poster! (less than 10 posts)
I want this bad boy piece of work
:)
:smokin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
is that where mine came from? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
there's even bits of a Boeing in that one!;)
really? thats cool! what skoda was it all from? i want to find out what pressure that fuel reg is
its from a felicia 1.3 mpi....1998-2000....prob 3 bar
means i dont have to buy one :)
What sort of price is it for one like this? :confused:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/album.php?albumid=1791
pm Michael Tierney he was the gent who made those in the photos. very good bit of kit to I run one on mine.
Is this still available?Quote:
Originally Posted by michael tierney
Michael normally has these for sale as rolling stock. I had heared he might not be making anymore.:crap: