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If we buy some more Unbrako 5GTT C1J head bolts to go into the shop should we also try and get some head bolts for this Volvo engine?
What size?
How many?
The C1J bolts are listed in the shop for £8. I bought 200 bolts to get the price down.
I can't tell how much a set of 10 Volvo bolts would work out to be.
they will be M12x1.5mm, so a fine pitch, and a lot more expensive than the standard 1.75mm pitch. original bolts are also a stretch type, but 12.9's would be acceptable ofcourse, I've actually just put 12.9 in my engine. 10 bolts cost me £75 delivered, after a lot of hunting. some places wanting over £200! I did request an odd length though. you'd need someone to verify the length of the standard bolt, but they won't be anything like as cheap as the GTT's M10 :)
i can get 40 @ £2.59 a bolt from xr fastners
10 would cost £5.99 a bolt
i havnt had the money to order these my self altho i realy do need some
the prices are dear because the would have to make the bolts, there an odd size as scoff has mentioned
I'm most deffinately interested in having a set and even poss having a few sets spare too if we can get some sort of a deal on a big order.
I'll have a couple of sets. :agree:
...if anyone can find some 180 long then I'm in :cooter:
So are they definitely 12mm x 1.5mm pitch then?
What length?
id have a set. :D
That statement does not help the rest of us!
Could you measure them and tell us?
Where did you buy them?
How much did you pay?
did anyone look into the F serie's diesel engine headbolts...????Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
just asking as I know they are torqued to a much higher poundage
I have a trade account with pro bolt. They do pretty colours. Shall I see how much they would be?
Thanks, I think it might be that in this case quality only comes in black.
Those pretty ones are aluminium aren't they? Not 12.9's then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Oh i dunno mate. :crap:
i could do wid a set soon as my head is gonna be ready in a few days
put me down to
Unless someone actually bothers to get an old bolt and measure it and post it here we won't even be looking at buying these.
I'm not going to do it. I don't have a Volvo engine and am not going to a scrap yard to or a Volvo dealer, etc, to find out.
It up to you chaps who want them to do that.
Or this is just another pointless thread.
i can measure a new 1 tonight with my verniers
i can also send a used 1 to whoever so they can double check and match up if thats whats needed
i have 40 bolts on order with xr fastners but there on hold as i cant aford to pay out the lump sum.
i can suply them details if needed to help out
f7p uses m12x108x1.5mm got 10x 12.9 110x1.5mm from them cost me £35 +£10 postage
they are a distributor for unbrako bolt range
company is - non-standard socket screws ltd/www.nssocketscrews.com
01215150121- sales
hope this helps:)
Is this B18FT Volvo engine the same as the FP7 then?
Regarding head bolts anyway.
the b18ft is diff from the FP7 what is need is the bolt specs form a F3P engineQuote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Schwartz sent me an original bolt which I've measured:
Overall length: 121mm
Shank and thread length: 108mm
Thread length: 37mm
Thread diameter: 12mm
Head diameter: 18mm
Thread pitch: 1.5mm per turn.
So I guess that makes them M12 x 108mm 1.5mm.
I work at a Volvo dealer so if you're intrested in going down the genuine route I can tell you the following;
Screw - part number 9438632 = £8.34 each inc VAT
Fits the following Volvo engines;
B17K
D16
B18, all variants including E, EP, F, FT, FTM, K
B20
I'm happy to do a deal on these, if I can be of any help let me know
how strong are the standard bolts whats the rating 12.9 etc...? they are alot beefier than the c1j head bolts look like they would be quite strong.:confused: what can they be tightened up to safely before they snap? and before danage is done to the head?
I phoned Francis Kirk, from who I bought the current RTOC stock of 12.9 M10 x 100.
Unbrako don't do fine pitch.
As the standard on the M12 is 1.75mm, the 1.5mm would be a special but the minimum batch size would be minimum 3000 bolts.
Unbrako do M12 x 150mm at 1.75mm but only with 36mm thread.
They can be cut to 108mm then threaded so it would be a cut thread rather then the Unbrako rolled thread.
For 100 bolts:
£93.18 Unbrako 12.9 M12 x 150mm cap screws
£40 cut
£50 thread
= £226.98 inc post and VAT.
= £22.70 to the club per set of 10.
For 100 bolts:Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
12.9 110mm x 1.5mm
£????
None in stock.
They will have to be made. 100 bolts minimum to make them.
He'll let me know in the next day how much.
Lead time from order placement is about 10 working days.
I did phone non standard screws again and they had not got a price from my previous enquiry and have not got back to me this second time.
in all casses(both f&c engines) if you have soft washers under the bolts then it will not make a difernce to wich bolt you have
ive taken many an engine apart that has used the wrong type of washers .. soft washers just bend and dig into the head, thus alowing the head to lift
so to acompany these bolts i sudgest a good sorce of washer is found aswell;)
Do they not come with thick washers as does the 5GTT's C1J?
Yeah they do, not quite as thick as the c1j ones and when I inspected them there were no indentations from the bolt heads in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
I use 12.9 cap heads with 25mm x 3mm thick stainless steel washers. they are cheap but good enough to stop them compressing like colin says.
Scoff where do you get those 3mm stainless washers?
I had some made especially a few years ago for something.
Are they available off the shelf somewhere?
It's not indentations in the washers from the bolts, but into the head from thin washers as they simply bend under the torque.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrixNFlix
So, I presume with standard torque, these washers are good enough to stop that bending and head damage. But not with higher torque that will be applied to 12.9 bolts?
My mistake Ian, they were 2.5mm thick not 3mm. Like this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/M12-STAINLESS-...item254d3e5517
Incedentally, heads been off more times than I care to recall this week (a stupid hydro lifter fault) and washers have come out A1 each time, so happy they're working OK. I wind them down to 90nm.
when i purchased the 12.9 x110x1.5 head bolts ,i also purchased some high tensile m12 washers which where an arp item , ordered through a company called coordsport, had to get them shipped from the states(1-2 week turn around) these are also a 12.9 tensile and are 3mm thickx18mm o/a diameter
www.coordsport.com where 73p each and £5 postage
hope this helps:)
Scoff,
that's about 66ft lbs.
A chap around here, though using thinner stainless washers, wound the washers and bolt heads into the C1J head at about 75ft lbs, IIRC.
His Torque wrench was set to 90nm but was in gross error.
One or two of the 10mm 12.9's had snapped, which why he rang me to go over there.
The footprint with the 12mm bolt and 25mm washer is quite a bit bigger, at 90nm it doesn't so much as leave a mark on the cylinder head under the washer.
Can you find them there for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
Thanks.
Im not sure that high tensile is valid for washers that are in compression not tension. They need to be not very flexible to resist bending rather than resist snapping under tension.
With a soft washer there's no mark really as such, just a smooth concavity. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
But I see what you mean about the larger dissipation area spreading the load. Perhaps that why the OE washers are a bit thinner than with the 10mm C1J. Renault knew they could save there both 1/2mm of metal and some money.
So would the OE do then if OE are fine for the C1J at higher torques like mentioned?
I can't say Ian, havn't looked at the Volvo bolts and washers in much detail. The F4R / 172 bolts have an integral washer in the head of the bolt, I just chose washers that had the same OD as the original bolts.
Re marking under bolts, yes sorry I should have explained it better. They havn't so much as marked, IE nothing worse than that, no deforming of the washers. I think the standard washers with the Volvo should probably be OK. In most cases I don't think you'd need to get to 90nm either.
Right, I rang Non-Standard again today and this time got some numbers:
M12 x 110mm 1.5mm pitch will be specially made and will have a rolled thread like the Unbrako's.
Carriage = £11.75inc.
per 100 bolts:
£133.30 + VAT = £156.62 = £15.62 per 10 bolts.
By the time they are in our shop and all the various fees and costs are added you can add a few quid to that final price.
Shall I buy more than 10 sets?
Is it time for another list? :laugh:
1. TrixNFlix - 2 sets
Someone say list? :scared: :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TrixNFlix
:laugh::wasntme:
So are you all happy with the 110mm length?Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
Have any of you confirmed that the 110mm bolts clear the bottom of the holes in the block with using 2.5mm washers?
Otherwise we'll have to buy in / get made 3mm washers so that will raise the overall cost by maybe £7 ? a set of 10.
Do you want me to ask if they do Unbrako at 180mm?Quote:
Originally Posted by clee
M12?
Pitch?
You only want 10?
I'll have a set please
So, I'm asking again just to be sure that you're all fine with the 110mm length so I can get some on order.
Just in case Renault did 108mm for a reason and not just to be awkward.
Even though these are being specially made, he told me that 108mm will increase the cost. I didn't ask by how much.
Is there enough room in the block for the 110mm? Realy need this answering first, as I don't fancy messing round with thicker washers.
I'll measure the depth of mine on the weekend Ian, see if there is enough depth for the extra 2mm of length without it bottoming out.
Mark did you get a chance measure them?
I rang Non Standard today to get a price for 108mm length:
It's an extra £60 = £193.30 + vat = £227.13 for 100 bolts = £22.71 a set to the club.
So quite a bit extra. But so were those thicker washers mentioned in an above post at £7 a set.
i measured the depth of the block for the bolt, with the head on (not clamped down but with old gasket) and washer in place and came to a complete depth of 120mm minus the 5mm due to the shape of a drill bit, so there should be 115mm for the bolt (roughly) with thicker washers it should be ok. I have no tools to measure this properly so if someone could do it a bit more accurately that would be ace, the head was not clamped down but i cant see it compressing more than a couple of mm.
I don't know what everyone else wants to do, but I would prefer to pay the extra and get the 108's. :agree:
me n all im suer theres some reason for it.
What you could do is leave the washer off and re-fit the bolt to see if it easily turns all the way down or stops just up from the head. Obviously, don't tighten them up hard or anything. That shows there's 2.5mm clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHWARTZ
You could even leave off the head gasket as well as the washers and fit the bolts. That would show there's perhaps 4.5(?)mm clear.
The bolts might get a bit tight if no bolts have ever been down into those threads though. But I'd guess if you ran out of thread the bolt would pretty much just stop.
with the head on but not tight with an old gasket and no washer the bolt does go all the way in by hand. original washers about 2mm thick
Thanks for that,
OK then, there should be 0.5mm to spare if the washers are actually 2.5mm and the new bolts are 2mm longer. Or the same if they are 2mm washers.
I'll order the 110mm bolts tomorrow then.
If they do prove to be a shade too long then we'll have to get some slightly thicker washers.
Jolly good :agree:
wernt thicker washers being ordered any way or do you mean even thicker washers.
I've ordered the bolts. :)
No I wasn't ordering thicker washers. I got the impression that the OE washers were good enough.
The washers would have to be ordered from else where as NSSS Ltd don't sell them.
Getting these ordered has taken well over and hour of my day, maybe two. Multiple phone calls and emails with various quote and reference numbers, order placement email and order confirmation email, order confirmation response email, credit card over the phone. Then there's all the previous calls to this company and their various quotes, etc, for stock items, standard specials and special specials. It's not just a simple matter of phoning and buying something.
If washers are needed then we'll deal with it then.
well thanks for all your hard work ian, if people need washers im sure they can be found a lot easier than bolts and when the bolts are in put me down for 2 sets please ian;):D
good work ian.
where do i put my order :):):):):)
Yep good work on the time consuming effort. :agree:
If they are needed im gonna hold you to this:cooter::):laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian S
Ill let dave r5 test them out first and see how he goes on :agree::wasntme:
They should be appearing inthe shop in a couple of weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave r5
The lead time N-SSS gave was something like 10 days.
They are being sent direct to CLee for the shop, together with 200 head bolts for the 5GTT's C1J engine.
We have to thank Schwartz for sending me an OE bolt to measure and for testing an OE bolt in the head without the washer.
And HAndy for the info about, and link to, link to N-SSS Ltd.
Is that per bolt?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon .J. Rose
any ideas when these bolts will be in the shop?
We paid for them on the 14 June.
They said about 10 working days.
It's been six so far.
not to long now then ace:agree:
Phoned them this morning and got an e-mail response stating that the bolts will be dispatched on 1st July.
So that will probably mean delivery to Clee this Friday.
https://www.rtoc.org/shop/index.php?m...roducts_id=103
You can pre-pay if you like.
I've listed them as not available until next Monday.
:agree::D
These are now in stock .
https://www.rtoc.org/shop/index.php?m...roducts_id=103
Thanks Ian for sorting this out and for the GTA bolts as well :cool:
Very good. A day early :)
Glad I could make a useful difference :)
In case anyone is wondering why these are so much more that the M10 bolts in the shop, here's the price break down:
With carriage shared with the M10 bolts I bought at the same time, purchase price by the club works out to £16.31 per set of 10.
Some of the costs below are approximate:
£16.31
£2.00 postage extra; see below *
£1.50 envelope, packing, label
=£19.81
£0.87 PayPal 3.4% + 20p
=£20.68
£0.09 3.4% of the RTOC flat rate postage
=£20.77 per set cost to the club
Plus the % for non members to purchase at.
Members get their discount when using the discount code.
* 10 bolts weigh about 1Kg so 1st class post = about £4.50. The RTOC standard flat rate is about £2.50. So I added the extra £2.00 to the bolts price.
good work lads got the bolts a while ago, and have now fitted them. The bolts tightened up nicely to 90nm so dosnt look like there is any problem at all with the bolts maby being to long. so a big thanks goes to ian and whoever else help sort these bolts out.