Well it is for me.:)
Off to get re-mapped after adjusting my cam timing from 129 deg back to Pipers 112deg. Should make a nice bit of difference fingers crossed.
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Well it is for me.:)
Off to get re-mapped after adjusting my cam timing from 129 deg back to Pipers 112deg. Should make a nice bit of difference fingers crossed.
good stuff andy look forward to seeing the results
My guess is you will most probably be astonished at the difference ;)
Hope it all goes to plan:agree:
:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
I know, it was a re- grind me thinks. I've been running this like this for about 6 or 7 years LMFAO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
At 129deg thats almost like the cam was a tooth out
Don't break the dyno, I'm booked in tomorrow :cool:
how did you get on with this andy?
Oh dear oh dear oh dear:(
Not a good day.
Started @ 5 am Saturday finished at 1am this morning. To say I am dissapointed is an undertatement! The golden figure I have is 193 bhp which is 10 bhp from what I rolled out with last time. Not only that, I now have leaky oil issues from the timing chain cover, a stripped thread on the vernier, the vernier has some play in it also on the end of the cam and a weeping head gasket.
It doesn't rev well either.
So all in all - a pretty **** day.
10/10 for Scoff again though, he didn't turn me away and we cracked on until we'd tried everything we could. I have some more measuring to do in respect to breathing, the cam may be worn or there may be some restriction in the exhaust. Another thought I have had is that the TB may be too small. I've gone for a 40mm TB.
Time to do some research!
with 194 bhp I seriously doubt it. It's a bit dirty now though - Sorry Scoff:scared:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashy
Hope yours gets on ok.
Sorry to hear that andy am sure you will get it sorted tho. If your after a throttle.bodie why not consider a rover k series 48mm one they are very cheap to buy.
Bugger thats not good mate :( now mine is close to being done i could give you a few Tuesday nights helping out. Will also help put some miles on mine :)
I have a lancia 60mm TB which will bolt straight on, I need to do a bit of research to see if that's the right way to go before just sticking it on.Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
LOL - I've got a bit of cleaning up to do and a few oil leaks to sort out now, also measure the cam lift as that may be a problem also. Feel free to pop over, It'll be great to see ol' spidey on the road again.Quote:
Originally Posted by JP Racing
Bollox mate ain't it after all the effort are ya taking the engine out againQuote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
im pretty sure i read 60mm might be too big for a c1j, am sure scoff will put me right though, another one to consider which is between the 2 we have mentioned is again off the k series this time off the mgzr160 which is 52mm
Honestly fella, I think the cam will be the problem not the size of the throttle body, just look how much power people are getting through a 25mm carb.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
I had the 60mm lancia throttle body on mine and all it did was make the power delivery very snappy and not nice to drive round town. I'd stick with the body u got and get that cam out and measured properly
Woooaaahhh! Steady fella - yes the engine will be coming out, but not yet. I'm gonna look at the cam and various other bits for the time being. I've been all too quick in the past to whip it out on an arbetry whim.Quote:
Originally Posted by R5MJH
Hey andy just a thought would a piper 300 cam be better suited if ur doing alot of track days.
I'm gonna have a look around for guidance on this point. I thought that 40mm would be more than enough, but that's just going off random comments here and there. If it is too small and the Lancia one is too big then I will be hunting an MGZR one down. That said - I do have a 45mm Laguna one to go on. HmmmmmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
Possibly - mine might be absolutely fooked, a standard one may be better LOL. I believe the Cat Cam as in the Cam wizard is the one to go for.Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
All this said - my turbo was designed and built for 200bhp - I'll get the exact specs up and see what people think. I may just have maxed it out.
Whats your turbo then fella might be able upgrade it quite easily
bad luck fella, looks like the curse of the EFI C1J has struck again, oli had similar issues but he just gave up :laugh:
what i recon u need is an AEM uego and a tubular manifold to build it back up with again ;)
I didn't give up completely, I got it working but decided it no longer suited what I wanted from the carQuote:
Originally Posted by markey b
it's a T28 - but the spec is not known atm. it's got a 55 trim and that's all I know atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by BluntyR5GTT
I'm not to have any probs yet with c1j efi on a vnt mate with a little bit more work Andy your get it doing what you want it to do :agree: efi the only way forward for a c1j in my mind ;) ask Marky mark took him out for a spin the other day and I think he was impressed how well it was goingQuote:
Originally Posted by markey b
Hi Phil - glad yours is going well, Scoff did mention you yesterday, I don't think you've been to him, but he keeps his eyes peeled on all things EFi.Quote:
Originally Posted by philr5t
Efi is worth the initial hassle, Emma car has done over 50,000 miles from when I done it.
I will be converting my 5 in the winter as I have all the parts to do it now.
Chris
Hi Andy yes I have been to see scoff he basically done all my loom put it on a base map, then an oil change then all the full throttle mapping I have not been back to scoff since he finished mine in may but at the mo all seems well just have one small prob that I caused but I'll soon get round that I will try and get back up to Chris late this year or next year for some more mapping with hopefully a more advanced and modified turbo unit To get more power just wish scoff could move down south :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
What power do you wanna try and get to mate
Well fook me, I think I've got it. If Im reading stuff right, God only knows what has happened to my cam, but I've checked lift on 1,2,3 and 4 and I'm only seeing 6.5mm of lift:eek:
I thought I'd bought a piper 285 many moons ago, it came in a piper 285 box and looked legit, but it can't have been.
I've had a shade over 200 bhp, which felt great, but Scoff was not happy how hard it was to achieve this. I guess my aim is not how much power do I want, but more get it running as it should. And that's why I go the extra 250 miles and take it to Scoff, because he knows the difference between a well set up 5 and those that are not well set up. I bet if I went to any local RR, they would be over the moon in getting 193 bhp out of a 1.4 8v push rod engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by philr5t
Hope the cam sorts it Andy, I use a 50mm single jenvy body and it is excellent, perfectly matched to the engine IMO.:agree:
Not too expensive either! your welcome to come for a spin at ND and see what you think mate:agree:
That would be great if I could and the standard cam is 7.5mm lift, so I can't see why it wouldn't. Scoff kept saying ' it's just not breathing right'Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
Where did u get this cam from Andy? Has someone sold u a campus job maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
CTM enginneering in Essex - a long time ago with Handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
I seem to remember it being in piper box and everything, it all looked legit.
Handy may be able to shed some light on this.
Have the lobes ground down over time maybe??
Did you use new followers or at least have them checked first?
Just clutching at straws really!
Needs to come out and be looked are:(
New followers used - I'd say 4mm of wear is a bit more than I would expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by GTphil
It'll be coming out alright, I'll get some photo's up once it's out.
Just to put the record straight - I don't think CTM have sold me a crap cam TBH, I might be wrong, but it's been in for near on 7 years and there are far too many factors to consider before suggesting that that may be the case. I know what I've got at the moment and I'm going to go forward from there.
Anyway - back on topic please.:smokin:
Hi Andy, is that 6.x mm of lift at the valve or pushrod ? Rocker ratio is 1.5:1 so you must multiply cam lift by 1.5. :)
sorry you didnt get the results you were after Andy :(
firstly your throttle bodie should not be a problem although , you need to measure your boost pipe dia, for best flow throttle should be same size or slightly bigger than the rest of the boost system in the ideal world the engine will take what it takes ,but by flow matching the dia, there is no bottle necks to over come;)
secondly according to pipercams you should have somewhere around 9.96mm of lift inlet/9.91mm exhaust, they do vary a bit,but i dont think for one minute your cams are 285 profile:( they should be stamped on the end with bp 285 etc , i also didnt think the 285 profile was a re porfiled cam, i asumed they where all cut from blanks:scratch: either way that profile should be more than upto the job for the power your after , a bp300 cam might be to much unless you want to run a bigger turbo more airflow/boost and a better flowing manifold system with less reversion /pulsing issues (a well designed tubular will help here) overlap might still be a problem, but for country roads, will be more laggy and a bit boring:crap:
your turbo might also be a restriction, what were your air temps and egt temps on the rollers, your exhaust is 2 1/2"diameter system, so thats not the problem ,regardlesss of the twin silencer set up.
if it were me , i would whip the cam out and get a dial gauge on it before you do anything,(surprised you did'nt do that before you fitted it to be honest:scratch: then go from there, a 285 cam, if it turns out its not that profile, then a power run. with out measuring the turbo its difficult to say what to do next after that, but in most cases the cam alone should get you the magic 200bhp,although air temps/egt will tell you how well ithe engine is coping at that power level.
you might need to increase turbine size/change trim to help flow exhaust better, stop it from bottle necking /backing up, fitting that tubular will help as well, make sure you get it braced , as it will help prevent cracking:)
That's Pushrod that was which gives us the magic 9mm. Smeg, thought I'd solved it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
you might still have. BP285 should have 9.9mm so 6.6mm required at the pushrod. If you DTI at the valve remember to take in to account valve clearance, so maybe 9.7mm to be expected there.
Cheers Andy - I think it might be the turbo - I've emailed CR Turbo's, lets see what they come back with in regard to my turbo and it may be that that is on it's limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
I'll go and have another crack at it, I'll measure at the valve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
regardless what CR Turbo's tell you, the real test of truth will be in the rr print out, it will give you an idea of whats happening along the curve,your air temps /egt temps will give you a good idea of where things are going wrong, Cr will only be able to give you a ball park figure for your engine , after that its quess work, you might aswell bend over and have the full hot air treatment:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Yup they are all up at the 9.4 - 9.9 lift on the back of the valve spring cap thingy. My DTI is not overly accurate, but I'm reasonably happy that it is a 285.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
I'll post up the turbo spec as soon as I've got it and see what everyone thinks. Thanks for your help.
If its a 285cam then the turbo is the next logical step
Ahem....Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller
Right, got a response from cr turbo's. I don't actually have a T28, what I do have is a GT2560R. This +ight explain a thing or 2.
I'm not overly convinced this Is true, so I'll have the turbo off and measure that also.
What size rear do you have? If its a proper gt2560r you should see over 200 easily??
Not sure Brigsy I'm gonna have to take it off and measure it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigsy
GT2560 is garrett speak for T28. It doesn't tell us the compressor trim or tubine housing size through.
I still think it's something more fundimental though. Peak power was happening at 6krpm. Even with a carb the piper 285 should make peak power nearer 6700rpm let alone when it's retarded 4 degrees. Bit of a funny one that I don't have an answer for, sorry :crap:
I reckon your rollers need looking at :p
Pulled that turbo off and apart from a cracked wastegate area it all looks ' normal ' T3 60 trim .48 exhaust :coffee: Feck knows why it does feck-all till 4k :scratch:
Well not to point fingers or anything but said turbo company have rebuilt a turbo for HAndy that should've been good for 400bhp+ but fitted a turbine wheel and housing that could bearly flow 300bhp.
Get the rear housing off Andy and measure that turbine wheel ASAP. The turbo you've got was The same as mine before they did any work on it and mine made 212bhp at 18-19psi revving to 7k, yours should be able to do it too. Your setup is basically the same as mine was, if mine can do 212bhp with a few issues that i hadn't sorted by the time it was mapped then yours should too.
Have you had any head work done on yours Andy?
Ok - a bit more info .Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
Compressor (cold) housing is 42 AR with a 43mm wheel looking at it from the front.
Turbine (hot) housing is 49 with a 40mm wheel looking at it from the back.
I have not dismantled the turbo, is this enough info to make certain assumptions?
Yes, slightly larger valves with 3 angled seats and a mild gas flowQuote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
So it shouldn't be the head then. None of the valves are bent at all are they? I had a minutely bent valve on mine which caused issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
So thats the exducer size of the turbine wheel which is the same as mine was, we need the inducer size to know for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
As for the compressor size it sounds about the right size too
I'd have to strip the head down for that, not for now. How did you know you had a bent valve???Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Didn't know till I stripped the head off to replace the valve guidesQuote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
Definetly getting full throttle? something silly maybe?
I would be doing a compression check ASAP mate, then i would be looking at your boost and fuel curves from the rollers to see where the problem lies...
Can you post some up and we can have a look see? Surprised Scoff is baffled, must be something very weird to baffle the c1j god~!:laugh:
GT 2560 R should be mental once spooled...?
Checked thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
I'll do that once everything is back together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
There are many people that know more about c1j than me :sad2:
It's not a roller ball turbo also - I don't know where CR got that from. Also the spec of the GT 2560 R is different. I think I may have been mis-lead here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
how much boost are you running for that power?
Well if the head is in good working order and it's had some head work done to improve flow, the cam is a 285 and the turbo is big enough then there can't be many more things wrong.
A comp test is defo a good place to start.
Maybe the cam as mentioned might be worn.
Could the breather system be an issue???
I cant think what else it could be, your down pipe is a 2.5" job ain't it?
:cry:23psiQuote:
Originally Posted by chipis
I'll do a comp test once back together but was good last year @ 140psi across all 4Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Cam is good as measured
2.5 down pipe :agree:
god only knows.
I know that after every visit from me there are fewer that hate them more LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
Lol don't panic fella, there has to be a reason why it ain't right, it's just a matter of time till its found.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
If the basics are there it has to be something stupidly simple.
We just need to go through it one step at a time.
What are your charge temps like out of interest?
Approx 50 Deg CQuote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
I know what you're saying, and I'm not panic stricken, I was really gutted on Saturday but I've got my logic head on now, so like you say, I'll get on it after national day. ATM I'm just getting it back together after a few initial pokes here and there. Next thing to check is back pressure in the exhaust, I'll be welding a boss into the downpipe sometime soon. I don't expect to find any problems there.
It can't be my intake manifold can it???
BTW Ross - if you're reading this - the compressor housing is bolted on, I was looking at the back plate to core cir-clip.
Nah I used the same intake design remember.
Hang on a sec, you measured the lift on the cam right, was that lift on the inlet valves or did you measure the lift on the exhaust valves aswell?
are you running also efi system on your setup?
Both the same chap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by chipis
im having quite the same setup, and yesterday have left the car for engine maping. will be running 22psi with piper 285cams. hoping to break 200hp border! then we will be able to compare our setups if it wont blow :)
some ting is wrong mate i had my car map last day on gt28r and piper 285 at 1 bar and rev it only to 5krpm i done 176 whp and 180 torque efi setup to
yes we know something is wrong, the question is what :)Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmk323
It should do and I did get into the 200 bhp category with piss poor cam timing. Keep us posted and good luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by chipis
i dont know where u get the time and patience from...im sure u will get to where u want to be eventually....good luck..:)
Cheers Jaffa - I've got to admit, I was pretty close to throwing it all in at 1am Sunday morning, but as a few have said, it's only metal etc, there is a problem somewhere...... I've just got to find the smegger (TM - Red Dwarf 1992-1996).Quote:
Originally Posted by jaffa
I think the phrase WIP is called for.
Have you checked what your turbo is pushing to make the 23psi into the engine? Could possibly be something in your intercooler or the intercooler has collapsed inside... Worth a check..
Also when you had the valve springs fitted were the seats relieved? Also your cam could be shot, ya may have to pull it out and have a look.. what you running the tappets at?
Hi Dave - my boost controller reference id taken directly from the compressor housing and my boost guage is taken from the inlet plenum, I'll have to look at differential between the 2 when I'm up and running again. I'm running a barrel charge cooler which when it was off last time looked good. A really good inspection wont hurt though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
The head work was done by CTM and when the springs are fully compressed, there is still a fair amount of travel left on the springs if need be, so I guess they are done. As for cam wear, I got half way through measuring last night when my oven spectacularly spat it's dummy out (element burnt out) It was like having a welder in my kitchen! and also had to clear a blocked drain, So I only managed to get the 1st 4 valves done which all came in at :-
1=9.56mm
2=9.35mm
3=9.7mm
4=9.5mm
I'll get the others done tonight all being well between the weekly shop and going out with the father in law.
My worry is that it's something I can't measure like the amount of air my head or inlet assembly will flow etc as I'm limited in knowing how many ft of air my engine flows etc, I'm not an engineer and I really struggle when it comes to stuff like that.
chargecooler shouldnt be the case if you are getting the right boost pressure in the intake manifold
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
OK Andy I think it will be a good idea to look what your turbo is doing, could well being pushing 50psi just to make the 23psi your seeing in the engine, which would take the turbo way out of its map.
What sort of inlet you running (did try to see some pics in your album, but couldn't) I can't see it being that mind..
Damn when it rain's it pours aye buddy!
Only other thing I could possibly think of is the inlet gasket is letting by when on boost, however, finding out if it's doing that is near impossible, I guess barring taking it of and looking for blow by marks?? Still I wouldn't do this just yet..
Hope this helps in some way fella.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
these exducer/inducer size measurements seen with the housings in place , if they are i would say your turbo is more than up to the job, if there not and are o/a diameter sizes of compressor/turbine wheels then you are wasting your time with that set up:(
40mm turbine wheel is not enough :eek:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
ignore that last comment, should have read the post better:ashamed:
deffo need to take the housings of and measure them up, as others have suggested have you pressure tested the boost system:scratch:
Thanks Dave - I'll be looking at the pressure from the compressor when it's back on the road, The inlet is a Micheal Tirianny affair - his 1st incarnation I'll load a picture up later. Head gasket is last resort, but if it needs it - off it will come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
Thanks a million for your input.
This is good experience for me btw everyone - I love knowing more about Fluffy, and this is a good learning spree for me.
Rite - looking at the restriction side of things, I've got the 'duke' (engineer across the road from me) adapting a blanking boss to take a pipe off from the exhaust b4 any silencers etc so that I can measure if there is any pressure in the exhaust system. I'll keep us all posted.
This will go in the lambda boss all being well.
:confused:
Andy that's the same inlet as I run, now I've not had my car in the dyno but it was good enough for an 11.7 quarter without gas and an 11.2 with.. So that defo shouldn't be your problem :)
Only thing I did do to mine was mastic/gasket seal all the throttle body to inlet parts, I didn't want to trust all those thin gaskets, probably over kill tbh, but didn't want any leaks on boost..
:agree::agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
That's good to know, that's another thing to rule out, I made gaskets for the TB to adaptor to manifold from paper gasket, I'll strip that down and use some liquid gasket instead. I wonder if there is a way to test the complete circuit for leaks upto the head?? I'll have a think about that.
Or just use some sump sealer :D
Unfortunately not :( you can only really test up to the throttle body as its got to be blocked of to get the pressure up..
Will be good to finally see what it is, very strange fault.. Good luck buddy.
Hi Andy - I tried to ring you last night, I'll try again today. I'll get the kit off Ross and check the boost system again, I think I'll be taking the inlet manifold off and checking the system upto the head including TB etc see what is going on there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HAndy
Bugger dude if you didn't have bad luck you'd have no luck at all. :cry:
Hope you get to the bottom of it soon. For some reason I've a gut feeling your issue is valve related don't know why just got that feeling.
And hope you and fluffy make it to national day for some beers.
well you can, with an airline from a compressor anyway. I've put 2 bar in to C1J's before now just by blocking the air filter and dump valve if fitted. You can see leaks in the manifold and all kinds. It doesn't get past the valves as quick as you might think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
You learn something new everyday in this club..Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
You have to be carefull though: One time we used a big wd40 can jubileed into the air filter pipe. It got to about 2 bar and I nearly lost my head as the can shot out of the silicone hose like a mortar round and hit the barn ceiling :crap:
:wasntme: I remember haz showing me the day after, it was his new party trick!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
Dude - Fluffy will be there and on track, just down on power - next year maybe, I need that beer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logg
On my list of things to do - I think TNT ross has a home made piece of kit to use. I'm gonna be busy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
I'll do the same for the exhaust side of things also - Top tip this on is Scoffy:agree::agree::agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
Just getting back on this now, got everything I need to to start putting back together and testing more.
I'l keep posting.
Done this - It's amazing how many places it leaked - there are still 2 minute leaks that will need the engine out to sort, but they really are very small, one on the inlet manifold and one directly on the turbo compressor housing. that was at 30psi aswell, at 20psi you couldn't hear a peep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoff
A few other things checked now.
All valves lift between 9.3mm and 9.7mm:agree:
Cam is timed in @ 15deg atdc
the head is 73mm
Compression tests as follows.
1 - 140 psi
2 - 150psi
3 - 145psi
4 - 149 psi
Checked everything bar for exhaust back pressure which I will be doing at the Renault Turbo UK festival. Everything seems to check out fine so far.
Any comments anyone?
Did you check the intercooler? Re what I said further up the post.. Get a boost gauge plumbed in and check how much boost the turbo is having to make for the engine to see the 23psi..
Ah no - forgot about that.:cartman:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
I'm going to get it back on the road tomorrow all being well and we'll see how much pressure she's really putting out, I can read this on my boost controller as it takes it's reading from the compressor housing.
Plumb my gauge I gave you in to the other side of the cooler Andy, last time I tested the pwr cooler core I think I had very very minimal change, 1psi rings a bell
No need fingers Mc Ross - I've already got a gauge plumbed into the snail shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT!hammond
Seeing 21psi @ tb and the same at the shell or there abouts. so nothing there. Just the exhaust back pressure to measure - everything else checks out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
Damn was worth a check.. One of my mates had the same prob, he changed loads of stuff and the car was still getting slower.. He went to a tuner he use's and that's what they found, the turbo was producing about 60psi and the engine was only seeing 30 lol.. So they looked and found that the cooler had collapsed inside..
Have u tried it without a air filter?
I'm not guaranteeing anything Andy but I'm sure your problem is still cam timing related mate as unfortunately I had this same problem about 7 years ago had someone dial my cam in went on the rollers and for an engine and turbo built at that time should have see about 180bhp it made almost 140 for about 20psi down at glen t of dynotech came back got the cam timing re done again by someone else who showed the cam being 12% out and a few degrees can make a big difference went back on the rollers same boost and found 172bhp And that same cam is what I'm still using to this day which is still finding some good power I really hope you find the problem soon mate :agree:
Not since re-timing the cam, we did on my 1st visit to Scoff which made no difference and we where seeing 203bhp then. We simply run out of time last time I was there. Might be interesting to do some more testing now the cam is about right, it might be pulling a lot more air in top end and I'm seeing restriction there now. I'm going to have to leave it now as I can't justify another epic trip to try small things like this. I was out in her last night, and she still feels really quick, I'm not gonna get hung up on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
Hi Phil - Yes, we would have messed around with this a bit more if we had a bit more time, It might be the next thing to go back to, to see if we can get any more out of her.Quote:
Originally Posted by philr5t