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Just a few of my projects/products...needle bearing with ball bearing thrust turbo upgrade...roller rockers...timming chain cover...pushrods with sleeves..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8172https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=7978https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8174https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8173
not all complete yet but getting there..:smokin::smokin::smokin:
top stuff matey. Pretty sure most would love some of your gear.:agree:
Sid having just fitted my cam cover over a vernier it was the middle bolt that was catching bud that cover will have to have a more central raised face to it bud to fit nicely.. I simply tested mine to fit.. But I can't adjust it unless I completely remove it.. Any timelines on the covers?
timming chain cover looks good, those running verniers/285's etc will be able to change timming a lot easier
Would you be able to produce a set of rockers that increases the ratio, say to 1.7/1.8?
:agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
you mean a bit like this
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8175
how is this done...making the end where pushrod is longer or shorter..Quote:
Originally Posted by JRP
Perfect :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I will take one ASAP the engine won't be in for about another month.. This would save so much time and effort.. I'm not arsed about seeing the vernier through it just removable would be magic :agree::coffee:
Shorter - To increase the ratio, the pushrod cup would be closer to the rocker centreline.
High lift/stock lsa would make for a perfect stick, imho.
how much closer...2-3mm?
it's do able..just need to know what you want..lol
is there not a problem with it getting to close that the rod will rub on the head where it goes down to folower:scared:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nottswoody
it not be clear...just like that on image...would be alloy all round...as for when I can get one made up...Ill let you know over wkend..:):)
the second batch of roller rockers...almost ready for anodizing and then bushes and bearings..happy dayshttps://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8176
I'd have to measure, unless someone has calculated it before?
It might rub depending on rod angle, but the bore could always be opened up or elongated slightly - There's a fair bit of meat present in that area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
I agree...so something like this is whats wanted..the 7.5 is standard...could go up to the 9.5 or even more..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8177
Great to see development continuing on the C1J. I would love to see a few more pics of the Roller Rockers fitted to the Cylinder Head. :cool:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=7979
Here just 1 more for now..:):)
great work, its a shame these little beauties get covered up.
have you got prices in mind yet?
Sid,
They look great and I'm interested in a set for sure, but like Mart, an increase in ratio would almost definitely be worth some gains.
Please let us know when you have worked out prices.
the price for a set of roller rockers is £240 deliverd...
I will have 14 sets to sell mid march...although i do have a list of foke that want them..so after them I reckon there is still 8 or so sets to go..as for ratio sets..maybe look at them in a few mth...got other projects I want to finish first..:D
Cheers sid :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
:agree: :)
can we start a list of people who want them?? id put my name down for a set:agree:
Yep, something along those lines :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I'll work it out over the weekend, unless you'd be willing to knock up a few single rockers, with different spaced holes, and measure the valve lift that way?
If need be, can you fabricate alternative length pushrods? I'm guessing that by altering the ratio, it might also naturally shift the valve stem sweep position?
Might just be easier to fit a hotter stick :D
with the ratio rocker sets mite do a mid piont back end ...a bit like the bottom 1 in pic...but not all way down...so can still use norm pushrods...although there are 2 lengths of rods you can get....bout 3mm longer than norm..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=7977
There's definitely a market for them - I don't know of any company, even in Renault's homeland, that's ever produced a different ratio rocker. The French lads would love 'em I reckon :)
Even a mild/'safe' 1.6 ratio should give a nice gain with a stock stick.
If you need a testbed engine, I'll happily help.
Either way, keep us posted :agree:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
ok..Ive just had a look on the old pc program...the 9.5 1 in above pic will give a 1.74 ratio..ill look at making a set in few mth...ill keep you upto date when I get started on them..;)
Sounds like a good starting point :)
Cheers :agree:
Mart...here is the finished look...1.74 ratio..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8197
Sid, 1.74 ratio rockers will definitely produce some recordable gains and like Mart has said, there is a decent market for these as nobody makes them currently.
We would obviously need to prove that they work on an engine with STD and up to Piper 285 camshafts, but this is an exciting development!
I would also say that the load on the pushrods is going to increase and as these are a known 'weaker' area, I think an upgrade would be essential?
Great work Sid.
Just had a look at the Piper Cams website to see what the valve lift gain would be with a 285 and the 1.74 ration rockers. The Piper website says that max Inlet Valve lift is 9.96mm.
9.96mm / 1.5 (to get the actual lift at the cam) = 6.64mm
6.64mm X 1.74 (to get new lift at valve) = 11.55mm
So 9.96mm increases to 11.55mm with a rocker ration of 1.74:1, that's a 1.59mm increase. While it doesn't sound like too much, you have to consider that the 'curtain area' has increased by a decent amount!
Looks good, Steven.
Woz, 11+mm lift may cause p-v contact, and would certainly coil-bind off-the-shelf Piper/Catcam springs.
As a minor aside to that, ~9.6mm is about the max, with a stock head, from a flow point of view.
check the cam wizard. Piper 390 is 11.25mm lift with no valve clearance.
That didnt cause interference ;)
i used cat cams springs and removed the under spring shim. was just about ok when running bigger valve clearances. ;)
you could get springs made by these guys: http://www.testedspring.com/home.asp
you need to specify all sorts of stuff though.- open length, closed length, wire thickness, poundage at certain compression points.....
Mart, all very good points. My calcs are very crude as they don't really account for the arc of travel. The real lift would be less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
It's also worth noting that the valve will be open longer at each lift point with additional benefits to achieving this with just a hotter bump stick.
Like you say Mart, it may require custom springs and/or recessed spring seats to get everything to work but with the right head it could make for a really interesting engine. May even reduce lag on bigger turbos?........
Sparks, was that with a 'blue' headgasket in situ though? 73.5mm head?
I'm sure I measured low 11.xmm as being max lift possible (with o.e gasket/head), but could be wrong.
Ok you guys do start to loose me a lil...with all this talk:scratch: however...I have started work on a head spacer:eek:...this would be made of aloy and would be any thickness from 1mm - 4mm...
The idea around the headspacer in the first place was because most heads have now been skimmed and comp chanber is getting smaller...this is not good for high boost...so the headspacer fits with 2 gaskets...like a sandwich.
would this help with any of the problems the high ratio rockers brings..:)
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=7981
:goodJob::worship:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I'm an absolute noddy with this stuff guys, so I would appreciate help in understanding both what do these cool looking rockers do that the standard ones don't and why they are able to achieve better lift than just fitting a cam with the right profile?
Also, where do the the new gains come from that Woz is describing that were previously unavailable using other tuning methods?
Knowledge gratefully received :)
Trev, here's a link to some Rocker theory. It's Mini based but useful all the same.
http://www.calverst.com/articles/CH-...compendium.htm
The main advantage of running a higher ratio rocker is that the valve will be opened further earlier in it's cycle, although the total duration will remain the same. This is because the valve is accelerated faster.
What this also means is that while the max lift created may go beyond the max flow the cylinder head is capable of, it's (probably) still worth doing because of the gains made in the rest of the range up to the max flow (further earlier).
Faster acceleration means that there will be more pressure on the cam, rockers and shaft, valves and for OHV engines like the A Series and C1J, the pushrods too.
There is a limit to how far you can go with all this but for the C1J there is no data to compare?
Lastly, I'll state that I am no expert and that all my rocker ratio knowledge has been gleaned from my Mini days.
Sid, in the above article, Keith Calver states that 'needle roller bearings' are not suited to the reciprocal motion of rockers. So it may be better to stick with bushes?
Thanks v much Woz.
I picked up on this piece of text from your link that might be useful for other noddys like me here:
Cam goes round, lobe pushes follower up, push-rod transfers this to the rocker which in turn opens the valve. Simple. Generally the aim is to open the valve as long, as fast and as far as possible - optimised for any particular application.
A road car needs differing performance to a racer. This is pretty much governed by the ‘as long’ and ‘as fast’ bits and is established by the cam lobe profile.
The rocker then mainly influences the ‘as far’ part. The cam lobe profile and height generally controls how far the valves are opened at any point, but the actual and final amount is down to the rocker gear.
So it appears the cam is able to control how quickly the valve opens and when that happens during the cycle by way of the profile.
So changing the rocker ratio simply controls (increases in this case) the physical distance the valve is pushed open for any given point during that entire cycle?
If that's true, I'm still not quite sure why that 'actual and final amount' can't be achieved purely by correctly re-profiling the cam to work with the existing rocker ratio. As Keith states:
A change in camshaft will aid volume of consumption by holding the valves open longer, and/or pushing them further open.
Maybe the profile required would be prohibitive with the cam housing/casting?
Not that I'm questioning anything, other than to improve my own understanding :agree::)
An interesting point at the bottom of the article:
<blah>....the lift developed by this set up can be too much, hurting power rather than improving - it’s rarely worth lifting a valve higher than the cylinder head's peak gas flow point!
Do we know where the C1J's peak gas flow point is?
For Sid to have developed these new rockers I guess it suggests one or more of the following two things:
1. that the peak point of gas flow on a C1J cannot be reached purely with a tuned cam and OE rockers/valves
2. I am dumb and am not understanding much
It can. That's why people fit hotter sticks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
Essentially, with a larger ratio rocker present, it's the same as increasing the lift of the cam.
From our point of view as well, with a C1J/ohv engine, it's a flaff on removing/re-fitting a cam if the head is still in situ, and/or the engine is still in the car. Changing the rockers though is relatively easy (in the same way that replacing cams in an ohc engine is easier), and although it's maybe seen as 'inferior' to fitting a hotter stick, the potential results/gains probably won't be that far off, imho :) Could be wrong though :D
If only we were blessed with dohc, or a mivec/vtec 'esque setup...
Yep, I mentioned that above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
Oop, sorry Mart, since reading Woz's article, it might have been a good idea for me to then re-read the thread to that point to consolidate. Have done so now and it all makes a lot more sense. Thank you.
So for my own sake; the reason for doing the rockers in the C1J is to mainly to make it easier and cheaper to increase lift throughout the stock profile (and with the addition of the roller, eliminate any side load there may be).
I guess, as the others are discussing, changing both the rocker ratio and the cam will need some additional thought. How have the ratios being decided upon for this first batch? Has there been some testing with the stock cam prior to that first batch being fab'd? Or do they come with a stock ratio? Also, is it possible to adjust them to alter the ratio slightly or is the adjustment simply to set their relationship with the rods?
What is the added value of the sleeves on the new rods btw?
Mart - tbh i can't remember what my comp ration was - the head depth was definately less than 73.5mm
however another problem popped into my head.
- the hole the pushrod goes through in the head, may need enlarging slightly, as i'm pretty sure with that 390 cam, i ended up wearing grooves halfway up the pushrod, due to lateral movement of the pushrod on a particularly peaky cam. - i think the increased ratio rockers might make this worse, as you will be moving the pushrod to one side slightly.
worth checking?
At least you saw my posts; 99% of the time they're invisible :D
Yep, pretty much as you say, plus, imho, I think a stock stick with increased lift will make for a good all-rounder, even on the larger turbo setups. But again, I could be wrong :)
No ratios have been decided upon yet, unless 'Sid' has already worked out what's what, plus I guess he'd be the only one who'd know how much meat there is on his roller rockers to allow for moving the pushrod cup closer to the centreline.
It would appear that 2mm closer equates to a ratio of 1.74, so on a stock cam that would give a 1.2-1.3mm increase in valve lift & a natural increase in the curtain area (as Woz mentioned before). That's a good start I reckon :)
As for sleeving the rods, that's simply to increase their (lateral) load threshold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkie
Another one of those invisible posts :D ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
So by increasing the lift your moving the optimum engine speed regards inlet and exhaust up the rev range, hence hotter cams working better with bigger later spooling turbo's and increasing the engines capacity to breath, so how does overlap work? and is overlap (when both valves are open at the same time) more advantageous on a turbo'd engine?
I'm presuming however you increase lift this will always increase overlap?
:agree: Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
So we're all in anticipation of what's to be gained then :)
One thing, I'm looking at the pic of the first batch sat on the bench (in the post above), and it looks like they are complete/ready to fit (minus the bearing maybe?). That's why I thought the ratio had been decided upon. I guess that's because I don't understand which part of the rocker design relates to the ratio and how it needs to be changed in order to alter that ratio. I see the diags showing a different placement of the hole on the rod side, but I don't understand why moving its position results in a change either (or what that change is)? :cartman:
Got the rods cheers sid. Theres no way these badboys are going to break. By next friday ill try and get some videos of the rockers and rods in action (more importantly the sound) if the engines running fingers crossed.
Whats the latest on the spacer? One of the heads having bigger valves is down to 72.66mm head depth, so I may require a solution here :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red October
cool :):)
yeh they are very very strong now...before it was easy to bend a rod but now it realy does take some effort to bend them..
head spacer could be sorted pritty quick as I've done all the test cuts to check fitment..just need to order some from a place I know (as they will be laser cut and we don't laser alloy)
BIG QUESTION IS HOW THICK DO YOU WANT IT..2MM-3MM??
:smokin:
Will I have to have 2x1.9mm gaskets on there sid?
tyou will have to have 2 gaskets yes.
however from what I hear some people say standard gaskets are good for high bhp...of course this is why I've done the head spacer 'cos most heads are now skimmed and foke still chuck 20+psi down the head...with space getting smaller and the stroke staying the same all that pressure has no where to compres...just blows out the gasket..even worse if you have a in car boost control...;) 'cos we all know that just a lil more not hurt:scared:..then pop..ooooops:sad2::sad2:
lots have been there...even me:D:D
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8219
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8218
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8217
These are Standard (what I'm making now) and 1.74 ratio...the one with bush and bearing is ratio one..:)
I'm sending these 3D printed ones to Mart so he can have a look at them and let me know what he thinks and any changes that maybe needed
:coffee:
1.9 multi layered steel + 2mm spacer+ 1.9 multi layered steel gasket= will it hold? What will it do to the compression? Losts of pros and cons or are they all just pros? :agree: :disagree:
The big valve head ive had made is 72.66mm so its getting low and this could be a serious answer to a serious question, standard were 73.5?
You only use one gasket with a decompression plate not two.
Ive just spent the last two hour researching and you are right one gasket only. Your supposed to fit the gasket as normal, apply a blue sealant to the shim/spacer and "glue" it to the head and bolt up. If I had a 1mm spacer with a 1.9mm gasket that wouldnt put me far off standard head compression.
Might give this one a go, whats the concensus say.........?
Ive gathered.
Step 1. Put gasket on block.
Step 2. Apply blue hylomar to........ one side of the spacer. (head side methinks)
Step 3. Stick spacer to the head, line up with gasket and bolt up.
Simple?!? Too simple for my liking........
What effect will putting in a 2mm spacer in do to my compression/timing etc....
Is there a limit to how much boost this spacer arrangement will take?
I dont mind being a ginuie pig for this modification but i could do with a couple of assurances on a couple of points.....before i go balls out make a mistake and ruin my expensive rebuild.
I understand with all R&D modifications nothing is certain, perhaps im losing my bottle!
WOW
Been on the phone to hylomar uk who are the leading gasket resin specialists in the UK. Chris at technical says that their product has been use on numerous spacer builds in the country and abroad. Theyve never had one complaint either he genuinley stated. The paste is good for 300c temps and remains viscious but importantly doesnt move/break down when in contact with other hot liquids like oil and water.
I think im going to try a 2mm plate and see how we go, the highest boost ive seen with spacers using blue hylomar is 30+ fords in the UK and USA. In the USA spacers (they call them shims) are common place, theres a turb vr6 golf running 26psi on one of the forums when ive been researching. If the car goes POP then so be it (2k all in if anyone wants to buy it when its dead lol) at least we've tried!
Come on Sid Dawn lets get our thinking caps on!
Downloaded from VR6 turbo forum:
Fitting Instructions
Before beginning the installation, the SaverShim should be matched to the cylinder head gasket and checked visually.
1. Prepare the mating surfaces: these must be flat, clean and dry with no scratches or marks.
2. Apply a liquid or spray sealant to the block or head (depending upon the application*) to seal the SaverShim. Gosnay's Engineering recommend and supply Wellseal.
3. Install the SaverShim on to the cylinder head or block*. Check all oil and water passages plus bolt holes for alignment.
[*NOTE: On Rover K & Peugeot XUD series engines, SaverShims must be fitted to the cylinder head NOT the block.]
4. Place head gasket on top of SaverShim (*EXCEPT Rover K and Peugeot XUD series engines where the head gasket must be fitted to the cylinder block in the usual way).
5. Fit cylinder head to block
NOTE: On cylinder heads with stretch type bolts, new ones should be fitted. (We will be pleased to supply these.)
6. Tighten the cylinder head bolts in the sequence and to the torque setting prescribed by the manufacturer.
Just an update on the second batch of roller rockers...sent them off to anodizers today and hope to have them ready for delivery mid March.... 'cos of intrest a £40 deposit would be nice to secure a set...:):)
very cool product, and a very interesting thread.
just for a bit more info, the reyland escort cosworth runs a 25mm spacer.
its slightly different as it has long liners that go through the spacer too but that runs well over 2bar and over 700bhp!
http://passionford.com/forum/traders...all-block.html
A super thread is in order for this build. I will call it project X lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by stu21t
If the standard spacer works then we can have a play with some different sizes and comp ratio adjusting with the newer ratio rockers and reinforced rods.
If we can bring this one home sid can have the handle "mad scientist"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red October
That will be DR MAD SCIENTIST to you...:laugh:
:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
You can call me Susan if the spacer works ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
oooooohhhhhhhh i like that:D pm for you ;)
hmmmmmmm, your gonna need a bigger deposit sid...:laugh:;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Awesome :D
Lovely work Sidney. :agree:
I had to do the same Mart, lots of meat to whip a bit off the push rod holes. Almost every engine I've seen with a hot cam has tell marks on the push rods...!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Porn like that is illegal :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
What's that made of fella?
Do you Mart think there is enough 'meat' to remove some for clearance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
Yes mate, there is. It shouldn't have to be opened up too much, and possibly not at all with a standard cam.
Btw, many thanks Steven - I received the 'templates' this morning :) Once I get my DTI back *cough, Big Steve, cough*, I'll get measuring.
Nice work on the timing covers too :cool: :agree:
I'm having one straight away :goodJob:Quote:
Originally Posted by Os8472
Awesome my fabricator never got round to making one for me. :sad: evenough I gave hime 5 covers to play around with.
Whats the estimated price of these timing chain covers?
hoping to be around £90-£100..deliverd..:smokin: If I can make them myself...work permited
guna be made from alloy anodized to protect..
Is there means for a seal on the bottom of the timing chain cover?
where it meats with sump...yeh will be same or better than what is already used...also making sure get good seal on pully shaft aswell...
Sounds good to me :) just wish these were around when I was going ott with my C1J :( I dunno if the 9 warrants too many shiney bitsQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
That's me sold. :agree: happy days :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Fire up a group buy on the covers and watch the names line up.. :agree:
:goodJob: Exciting C1J developmentsQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Appreciate some of the work here, very nice.
Do you do 1-off bespoke requests? One or two sets of 12 roller rockers, but within the set there are 2 different versions of rocker (angled outwards, mirror image).
SOHC engine.
Is this not something the club could do with in the shop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerous dave
ok so I've got the price in from a few companys to make the timing chain covers....
this is what I'm guna do...
first off the price for a cover is guna be £150 ('cos I'm not making it I don't have much say in this)
second If you pm me I'll start up a list of who is having..(not would like but having)
then if there enuff intrest I'll want deposits to comform then I'll put the order in...
have made 14 sets of rockers with 14 people wanting them then when it comes to the penneys have backed out...:confused::confused:
sorry the cover are so much but I spent a lot of time on rockers making them myself to get let down ...not guna happen again
cheers
Welcome to the rtoc 'rule of 3'...
Sorry bud but £150 is too much for me I'm out. It's fantastic work it really is the best I have seen keep up the good work..
Sad to hear that Sid. :( If you say yes and back out thats unfair. Just deal with the ones who have got the brass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
£150 is a bit too much for me for the cam cover.
I'm out. :cry:
Are all 14 who said yes to rockers RTOC members??
Always best to get deposits first. :(
I'm sure you will shift them over time and not be out of pocket. :agree:
we was chatting about that the other day.shame really :sad2:
only say yes if you want it!
So many let downs around, my advice would be to not start making anything until everyone has paid up at least a 20% deposit. Hope you can do it this way and carry on making these parts.
Just get a group buy list going and like said 10/20% deposit shows people are serious.
Iv stuck to all my group buys, bms and koni's and maybe some more cant remember:scratch:
I like the idea of this, am currently running 270 cam but if I went 285 id have one!
Sid, were the people who backed buying the std ratio rockers?
Deposit is definitely the way to go and then wait until you have enough names (with deposits) to make it viable for you.
There are lots of Group Buys that I have thought it was a very good product/price but just didn't have the cash, so I didn't put my name down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
Yes mate standard ratio...
Steven, how many sets do you have left, and at what price could you sell them to rtoc'ers, either via a group buy thread on here, or the club shop?
I'm fairly confident they'll then be shifted either way mate :agree:
update on the timing chain cover.....
as the £150 is far to much for anyone (even me)...I've done a lot more thinking and may have a plan c..:)..
See this invisible post ▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲▲Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cole
Excellent news. :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
:agree: i feel the need to retard my timing a couple of degrees my power dies off around 6000ish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logg
Same here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Sid if you can get the covers done for around £100 I'll take one.
I'm guna cut up a standard one....fit a sleeve..:coffee:
does anyone have a spare they would donate;)...for research..of course if it works out ok you will be first to have..lol..
as I'm guna be using old covers price will be under £100...
pics to follow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Sid I am not in need of one as don't use a c1j but you are welcome to my spare timing chain cover to do what you like to it:agree: pm me your address will get it posted out early next week FOC
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8251
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8252
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8253
so it's the red bit I'm guna look at making...:)
Mines smacked outa shape now bud so no good to you :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I've got a spare you can have mate
I'll see if I can get in contact with my fabricator that's on the missing list as I gave him three covers last year.
Tony your the perfect example as I know you've chafed your timing a few times.. How much easier would this be for us with SIDS cover?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Sprocket is a bit ruff...but all sized on dia...just to give you some idea of room from face on veiw..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8254
here's some pictures of a timing cover i made a few years ago for my old c1j, i tried to sell them for a £100 on the club and no one was interested:confused:
It's down to how much is the hassle worth to me really... Iv never had to re-take one off to adjust the timing I can just imagine its a pain in the arse and I don't like pain in the arses.. I'm guessing its a case of people had to pay people to refit these to their running engines so they didn't see a point.. But now people are keeping there 5s for longer now. Eg me if its going to save time in the future I'm in.
well when i timed my cam in i think it was around the 114 mark(but it could of been wrong), and when driving it was fairly useless turbo came on around 4500 then you could feel the cam come in around 5500 which felt like the turbo coming in twice it was strange but i didnt like the delivery. i thought maybe id got the timing wrong so thought id advance it, then doing it in a rush after work and had to drive it home i moved the timing the wrong way lol. so that was 1st attempt. second time i had to take it back quite a few degrees around 12 i think i tried (to take the initial adjustment out which was about 5 degrees, i was trying to see what fully advanced was like compared to the fully retarded id experienced) when id adjusted it the wrong way the car was idling quite lumpy and would barely produce any boost(which i think some members have blamed the turbo on before) thats pretty much where it sits now so i think its quite advanced and would like to retard it a couple of degrees, i think this showed in my power graph by loosing power higher up the rpm, but i was still impressed by the power/torque it made. Its either change my cam timing to suit my turbo or maybe a smaller exhaust housing to suit my engine/timing.
Either way having an adjustable cover would of made it soooooooooo much easier, taking the cover off ruins the cork gasket and theres allways the chance of it leaking after you put it back together.
I don't even remember them ted - maybe more people running 285's now and doing it themselves hence the interest. They look good thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by turbo ted
I remember Rob.Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo ted
Not sure why I didnt buy it at the time.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renault-5-...E:B:SS:GB:1123 :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I had one - and it is in my spares dept.Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo ted
And what are those pistons?
wossner high comp pistons with the crowns machined offQuote:
Originally Posted by TNT ANDY
There was also someone else who made their own a few yrs ago and IIRC it had a viewing window. Quality was awesome. I forget who it was.
Turbo tedQuote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
I remember seeing that, but I thought someone followed it up with a comment about gt tuning? Did they ever make them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
No, it was someone else Jon and it looked different to Teds. I can't remember who it was now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JRP
He definitely made it himself Dave as a one-off.
He had a Tungy GTT in top condition IIRC.
Anyway, it matters not.
Used to be a guy called John over bb timings way in a real clean tungy, I think he was handy... Talking 6-7 years agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
next batch rockers done..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8329
Oh dear, I think I've had a trouser mess. :scared:
These are the STD Ratio Rockers aren't they Sid? They look like a quality piece of kit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
yes mate standard set..with the sleeved rods in a head it looks like it could push a mountain..:eek:
First timing cover done..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8332
Nice job Sid keep it up :agree:
Get deposits first this time! :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevhib
defently!!!! just out of interest, how many people have paid up for the rocker sets????
Quote:
Originally Posted by r5_scotty
7 sets sold...almost paid for too..:D
by the end of next week 7 sets will be out there...
made some of these up other day for David Clark.... will be making more soon if intrested send us a message..:coffee:
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8368
How much for the longer tappet adjusters? Could do with some for mine.
yeah me too.... i had to file my rockers flat so i could put the nut underneath as my reprofiled cam had obviously had a fair bit taken off lol.
I did that too, when I didnt have the longer rods. what a pig to set up!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Now Sids made me these, I wont have to search everywhere for the 178mm rods. :agree:
Mine are underneath too, but I didn't file down the rocker arm
sweet :agree:
great idea these as i could only just get mine adjusted on my 270Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I just filed a bit away so the lock nut would sit flush.Quote:
Originally Posted by GT Josh
Longer adjusters is deffinetly a better/easier method :agree:
I know mate when your fiddling with it. Scared if dropping the nut hahaha.
The longer adjusters are just £20 deliverd..:eek:
looking at doing these...10mm copper feeds for inlet manifold water...to turbo ect..
stop them restrictions..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8386
why not see how much you could do the following for? (not for me personally, just a few ideas)
cam followers.
adjustable cam vernier.
oil pump cores?
Cam follows would be good but there are a few processes to making them, like the case hardening for good wear resistance.
I'd like to see a set with a DLC (diamond like carbon) coating as this has excellent wear resistance and super low friction! Still a relatively new process but achieving great things in many different applications.
Not sure how a standard spec set or a DLC set would compare to an OE set for price? Isn't still 200 sheets for a set from Renault?
Cam follower....depends on steel and how silly hard you want to go...not be anything near the £200 mark....prob £100 or less..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8390
They are 22 pound each at renault maybe more now. are you using solidworks to draw up these your work is amazing well doneQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtmatt
yes mate Solidworks is the bomb...
Guna 3d print 1 of these tomoz see how it fits...got an engine just for trying all this stuff out...
All fits in same space just lifts pushrod up 7mm...and with most foke strugling with the nuts....:eek: on adjusters;) this will be 2 birds with 1 stone...lol
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8391
use solidworks at are place.your a credit to the club mate job well doneQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
how much are the rockers? and would they be of benefit to a standard engine, turbo, cam setup ?
I can't beleive how quickly you can design/produce things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
I've got solidworks at home...and any ideas you lot come up with is racking in my head till I can sort it...like I'm sure I've said before...sorting sh*t and making it work is what I do for a job...
:):):)
The increased ration rockers definitely will work with the STD Cam and turbo, but you could go up on turbo size a bit too.Quote:
Originally Posted by robx1r
With the Sid's Std ratio rockers you'll still benefit from lighter components with less friction and they should be a bit quieter than the OE gear too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
Any plans to fabricate rollers for other makes of Renaults i.e. Gordini T Head?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlos
I am willing to look at any part for any car....or bike...if you want me to have a look best thing to do is send me 1 so can draw it up and get price....(for free):)
of course like the rockers on a 5 there left and right hand so would want 1 of each if this is case with the Gordini..
cheers
Adjustable (camber & castor wise) top mounts would be a winner mate.
:agree::agree::agree: definitely :agree::agree::agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
Liking this idea a lot :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
send me RUFF pic of what you mean....dont need any sizes just the idea..lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Its ok seen what you mean now...just give me a sec...:laugh::laugh::laugh:
ok...so do you want it going front to back or in and out......or.......:scared: both..
Both mate. Front to back would adjust castor, inside to outside would adjust camber.
Something like this...
how much movement we talking...10, 20, 30mm
and what's to be done about bushes...as it looks to me like with all the plates i've looked at they just seem to do away with the big ones....plus thats where they get the movement right...when that big rubber at top is taken away..
They go solid and the ride gets a little harsh, but as you say, the play has left the building.
Mums clio 182 mounts are sh1te, knocky knock knock, but I dare not fit solid mounts for her, at 65 or he might get the dog..
ok...here the first draft for the top mounts...
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8407
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8406
not complete but you get the idea..lol
looka great, would deffinetly be interested in a set. would we be needing to supply our own bearing in the topmount.
as long as all rods on struts are same size I rekon its only right I supply as plug and play...:coffee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
good effort:agree: top chap
plug and plays always good :D couldnt send it with the perfect camber/castor adjustment for my car allready lined up could you :cooter:
hahahaha sounds good :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
+1 :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve - Raider
+1 :agree:
+1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Reed
another idea taken from the mind and made real....not my idea but is defo a good looking bit of kit....and with bigger bores will flow loads better..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8526
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8525
Isn't that the inlet manifold cooling lines?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
I would have thought a larger pipe & increased flow would be a bad thing, given its hot water you're pushing through there when the car is up to temperature and I thought the cooler the air,the better?
They look fantastic Sid, but they seem to be for phase 1, as the Zero Position is the std place for a Phase 1 Top Mount. Most people will be running a Phase 2 set up, so would have to slide the mount outboard to correct for std location.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Phase 2 already sit further outboard and a little rear as this reduced KPI and increased castor respectively.
Another reason to have more outboard adjustment would be to allow the reduction in camber when fitting a wide track set up (Clio 16v, Williams or 172/182).
Just a few things to think about. ;)
Cheers for the info....the drawins you have seen so far are just draft...waiting to draw up a set for real when get round to taking parts apart for real sizes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Woznaldo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve - Raider
Idea is to get the flow going tha5t the hot water is taken away so the "cooler" water from rad can get there...also this is same for turbo...get the cool water in means getting the hot water away...frikin stuff just goes round in circles init..:dearme:
Roller rockers now going to offers....need to get them sold to start work on my new project 5 that came today....
Pm me a priceQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Pm me a price too cheers!Quote:
Originally Posted by gtmatt
How much bud?
looking into making some front brake brackets if anyone intrested... price will be based on amout wanted.. :)
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8693
Interested in a pair of front brackets to suit 280mm dia disc's, how much are we talking if you was to knock up one set mate? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
pM me for a price mateQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Adjustable top mount update...
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=8996
Thats it for now just a lil teaser
:eek::eek::eek::D
Any longer push rods Sid for the 285 posse?
:) :agree:
3d printing process niceQuote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
It's great to have a fabricator like this in the club!
I would be interested in cliosport roller rockers, not that you would bring them higher then 8000rpm anyway because of stroke but the rockers are supposed to be weak?
There is a set of lash rockers available from catcams but needs custom cams and cost would be somewhere around 3k all in :crap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutuur
I'll make them for 1k:confused: lmao
If you send me some info or even better some standard rockers to copy I'll get them drawn up and let you know on price....as I'm sure there not guna be anything like big ££
Well, i don't own an f4r engine atm but i do want to build a high powered f4r somewhere in the future so i'm researching already.
Could be interesting for Scoff too i reckon, also for a lot of other guys so it's good to know you're open for suggestions!
Solid lifters are available too but at a price of 450 so might be really interesting if we could develope something in the future :agree:
ive got pretty much no idea of whats going on...or numbers or anything but i love it! well done man your a champion
Quote:
Originally Posted by safehands
:laugh::agree:
Don't forget my £10 deposit on the first set Sid ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Excellent job mate!!
Good darts bud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Was it not possible to have them adjustable/sliding on elongated holes then, akin to the pic' I posted above?
Can you replicate Devil strut-braces? :D
:agree: I'm glad I'm not the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
I had one if those devils on my last 5. Are they hard to come by now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
They come up for sale every now & then, but command strong money.
I'm sure if Sid could make exact copies, for less £, he'd probably be onto yet another winner :D
id certainly be up for a devil copy
The frenchies make copys but still mega money ,I would love a devil strut braceQuote:
Originally Posted by Mart
More info plz guys...I.ve seen some pics and see it's just 2 brackets and 1 tube...
1) Is the tube ment to be bent ?
2) would you want same adjustment on it so weight you can added to top (pushing out)
3) what sort of money are you willing to pay..
Cheers all
:)
2 brackets one tube and a couple of pins.i remember i used to have problems closing my bonnet with it. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutuur
got a rocker for the f4r comoing over next few days...will have a look at it at let you know...looks simple realy..lol
1) Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
2) Imho, no. 100% exact copy ftw :)
3) For ref', 2nd hand Devil braces go for £150-£200, and the Reichhard units (which aren't exact copies - They only have the one strut-bar fixing hole at each turret support, whereas the Devil has two) used to be ~£100.
What the invisible one said is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noone
:laugh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mart
ok cool...so realy I could do with someone lending a Devil unit so I can draw it up..if you want a true copie I have to have one in my hands for a few days...:)
Solid/adjustable followers for F4R might be handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Top job :agree:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Like these....;)
Those are the catcams lashes but need custom profiles...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutuur
so when I get the standard rocker how do you want it to look...same but solid with 2 bearings??
ratio change??
Same i guess but unbreakable and possibly lighter :)
2 bearings would be a plus too!
We need someone like you on the honda s2000 forum,honda after market parts can be sooo expensive:cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveT2
like??
info plz:):)
Hi all...
Lets talk Sid Dawn F4r rockers..this came today
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9014
I must say it's pritty badly made..as you see here
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9016
when pushed down at valve end its not down on both sides..not knowing about F4r engines this carn't be right hay:confused::confused:
as for the clip to left of rocker...whats that for..he he:D
Just looking at drawing them up over next few days...there are 16 yes..:scared:
Cheers
clip... clips on to the top of the hydraulic lifter.
the problem with the end on the right is when you have high lift cams the angle and loading gets really bad, that accompinied with high rpm gives problems i think.
a bearing or some kind of rounder end would be great, i think a second bearing would add too much weight won't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutuur
I don't understand how they could make them so bad...with 2 "legs" that arn't same..that to me is just :brickwall::brickwall:
Any hoo...will look at few ends bearing and rounded..
Mass produced sh1te..... I think these are the limiting factors when using constant high revs in the f4r engines.....they fall apart.
Also, check this..... A friend of a friend has just bought a nice 172. Had it a couple of weeks when someone said that it was a 'bit tappey' from the engine.......
I took one look inside th oil filler cap and saw this.
The base circle of the cam lobe has been munched away, the dip in the cam is at least .5 mm deep.
Ouch.
A few pics of tonights doodles. F4r Rocker
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9020
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9021
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9022
:)
Looks real tidy!
Sid, would you mind if I mentioned this on cliosport? Apart from a few bling boys there are one or two very techy lads who may be interested in this sort of thing and may have some input into a good reliable design.
I wish I could doodle like that!
I can't draw stick men, on a pc or with pen and paper lol.
Well done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
Ofcourse, the more input I can get the better..or any requests to be made to them..
few pics of the adjustable top mounts I'm working on..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9032
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9031
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9029
All 3D printed so far with a few changes to do...The reason I've gone for this kind of motion instead of slotted plates is 'cos I've been informed that the slotted plates can move (slide) after setting and driving hard....with my set up the screws hold it in place at the ends of the slots so it CAN NOT turn = move...:D
Any input (good or bad) is welcome..
Cheers all
adjustable top mounts put me down for a set, these are for a phase 2 good work well done.:smokin:
Looks very bling Sid, good job! :niceone:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Am I right in thinking though that you will only be able to set this design of top mount the distance from one tapped hole to another meaning they're not finely adjustable?
I may be wrong Sid but as far as I know they are meant to be slightly out of true.... it's done so as the rocker works it actually rotates the valve/spring when in use.... as the revs increase the rotation of the valve does too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
sounds weird but after watching a high rpm High Def film about it you'll be amazed how much the valve, spring rotates in use... also the valve flexes a huge amount in use... I'll try and find the clip on youtube...
I had a clio that had a very slight bent valve and as it turned it would stick on the guide and make a right racket whacking the piston then would clear for awhile then come back lol sounded great at first then went then came back then went. stupid cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Steve - Raider
NO...:) the holes are off set so it if fully very fine adjustable...so when you turn it there will be 2 bolts in some slots but only 1 in others...turn it some more and there is 1 bolt in some and 2 in others...if you get what I mean..:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuWiZ5nVKzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcyT18qk8ls
enjoy, Sparkie know you can see what you used to do , LOTS
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul b
wow fantastic stuff....still with the 2 legs not being same length???..when 1 the vids has a bearing at valve end like I plan to do??..do you realy want to be hiting the top of the valve at 8k at an angle...that to me is like hiting a nail in wood with an axe...the nail is guna bend..
but if you could "turn" the nail as you hit it, it will not bend ....
thats the theory , anyway..... lol
Have you offered one up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Not a great deal of open space on top of the turret so limits options for locking bolts.
Are you designing it so the metal around the top hole on the turret has to be cutout and opened up??
I know about the lack of space and this is also why I've gone for this design...no cutting will be needed.. made a perspex cut out first to offer up..now I've got a 3D printed full working 1 I will offer that up asap (wkend)...it not take the waight of the car well but will show up any problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy M
Great :agree: :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Great stuff mate :cool: is it being offered up to a ph2 car??Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Keep the progress reports coming :) Very interested in this one.
Thought about doing the same sort of top mount for clio ?
Also short shift lever?
Amazing videos. Both the valves and the springs rotate. From where does that rotation originate? It is the microscopic imperfection of how the rocker comes down onto the top of the valve?
I think springs twist slightly as there compressed.
This is where I'm at so far with timing chain cover....guna be in 2 halfs with an angle to join them together..
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9037
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9038
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/picture.p...pictureid=9039
What, naturally? Hmm, I guess that would make sense given their innate design. It must be that since the spring is attached to the assembly at the top (and so is the valve), the valve spins as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Walker
Nope, there is a small amount of offset. So when the valve is opened it should drag it round ever so slightly.
An exaggerated pic. This it what it looks like looking down on the rocker and valve stem.
The same principle applies to the camshaft and follower, it's supposed to even out the wear patterns.
Ooh, awesome :coffee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt@CodeRedMotorsports
Thanks Matt, that makes sense :)
Is this a separate thing to what makes the spring turn, or is that caused by this rocker design too?
Lovely work on the new Top Mounts Sid. :cool:
Hi sid just notice on another thread that you were selling the roller rockers with longer adjusters?
Do you sell the longer adjusters or can I just get them as a aftermarket jobbie?
Also has anyone got any videos of the rockers in action and are they any quieter???
just got a query about the roller rockers (thought i'd post it here rather than the 'other' thread)
i've looked at some 'dry' ones that havent been run yet.....
if you look at the design of the rocker, the sides are very flat.
where the rocker touches the mounting pedestal there is actually a larger area rubbing together than on a standard set of rockers. As there is a spring pushing the rocker sidewards onto the pedestal, there was a bit of friction there. (admittedly dry - no oil at all)
now i was thinking, would it be better to run a small shim type washer between the two, to reduce the sidewards friction of the rocker?
Maybe that would be a good idea...the anodizing is a kinda harder and will have very little friction...I was looking into doing a whole new rod for the rockers to run on but £££ rule..lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sparkie
Evening all.. As most are in the know there has been "problems" with the roller rockers...I have sent messages out to all that have them but would like to add on here that if you do have some DO NOT fit them at this time.. the problem will be sorted.. Cheers
You haven't refunded Matt white for his faulty rods and timing cover so its not sorted is it!
He pointed out these were not right months ago and it all got silenced. Give the man his money back.
so do we get replacements then sid....:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Dawn
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesus in the seat of a 5
have tried to message you but ya in box is full mate..lol..you will get them back...modified...