Charge temps?

Since theres been a nice new set of Ian S gagues sent out I was just wondering what sort of temps people are getting?

I've been getting up to 105 from my grill mounted frontra intercooler @20psi. :cry: It would sit at anything from 28-34 with normal driving all temps of a night time. :eek:

So thants off the car and the pwr cooler is going on in the next few days.

My dads running a pwr chargecooler on his turbo 2 and at 21psi he was getting 27-28 at wot the other day:cool:

I'm also running a pwr set up but need a final map first to see what temps I get

I use 1 of ian's charge temp gauges and have been using my 5 for most the week, driving round I get 24-28'c but when on full boost I hit temps of 30-38'c at 21 psi with a charge cooler set up
minty

my ian s gauge is on my heap of tuning goodies thats nowhere near my 5:crap: i'll be a long while till i can join in the fun.. mines the radtec set up and fingers crossed with some better flow to it i should see some good temps:coffee::D

Logg, with my old set up in that car I had 31c on boost @ 24psi mani with my Ian S.... decent cooler & set up needed ..... oh & sell me my car back please..... :cry:

mmmmmm Well I've changed to a pwr cooler tonight. Thanks Turbo Ted & Marc and am still getting the same readings. :'( if anything its worse than before.

Think I'll be checking me earths tomorrow and making some cowling.

Just sell me the car back, end of problems.... :cooter:

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Originally Posted by 5teve L

Logg, with my old set up in that car I had 31c on boost @ 24psi mani with my Ian S.... decent cooler & set up needed ..... oh & sell me my car back please..... :cry:

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lol She'll probably feel like a completly different car now.

whats these ian s gauges? are they the best bet for checking inlet temps?

how are they plumbed in?

cheers

Ben

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Originally Posted by Coops

whats these ian s gauges? are they the best bet for checking inlet temps?

how are they plumbed in?

cheers

Ben

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Have a look in the group buy section and it will be near the top about them :)

When I had my 5 going, with the standard sized intercooler, the temps would often top out at around 50°C or 60°C at WOT. Even with going right through the gears.

But sometimes, it'd top out at 89°C if the engine, cooler, pipes, engine bay, coolant water, etc was hot after a run and then I driven a bit slower then given it WOT again for a while.

I had an oil temp gauge and it'd usually take a 15 to 20 min run before that showed 90°C, where is would stay.

Unless it was at 90°C then I booted it for a while when in mid summer it would reach 120°C.

I had a very big compressor. Perhaps different turbos make a very different amount of heat?

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Originally Posted by Logg

mmmmmm Well I've changed to a pwr cooler tonight. Thanks Turbo Ted & Marc and am still getting the same readings. :'( if anything its worse than before.

Think I'll be checking me earths tomorrow and making some cowling.

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I wonder if what happened there is that the PWR flows a lot better so is passing the heat onto the inlet, but neither can cool well as the air flow through them is impeded in some way or is bypassing around the sides of the cooler?

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Originally Posted by Ian S

I wonder if what happened there is that the PWR flows a lot better so is passing the heat onto the inlet, but neither can cool well as the air flow through them is impeded in some way or is bypassing around the sides of the cooler?

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or the pwr is full of air :confused:

need 2 sensors really, one for inlet temps and one for water temps in the chargecooler system! lol!

in fact, i'm going to pm Ian again! ;):laugh:

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

or the pwr is full of air :confused:

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If cooling air from the front of the car can't get through the intercooler to the back of the intercooler then it won't cool.

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Originally Posted by Ian S

If cooling air from the front of the car can't get through the intercooler to the back of the intercooler then it won't cool.

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PWR is a charge cooler so its water cooled so no need for air apart from through the pre-rad

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Originally Posted by Bigfoot

PWR is a charge cooler

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Thanks for explaining that :)

Maybe the pre-rad isn't doing enough?

I've seen the Pace charge coolers lack of cooling. 94°C.

A guess might be that it flowed hot charge air well and the hot air air didn't stay in there long enough to lose much heat.

I've heard that the pre-rad can work best if it's butted right back against the main rad. Even more so if the edges are sealed around with some narrow silicone tube. I didn't try it. You have to test it and see for yourself.

My guess is that this is effective due to preventing cooling air from the front of the car from bypassing the pre-rad and going down behind it to the main rad.

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Originally Posted by Ian S

Thanks for explaining that :)

Maybe the pre-rad isn't doing enough?

I've seen the Pace charge coolers lack of cooling. 94°C.

A guess might be that it flowed hot charge air well and the hot air air didn't stay in there long enough to lose much heat.

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Thats down to how bad the pre-rad is on those, one of the first things I did is change the pre-rad, need to get the guage all plumbed in and see what its running like with the new pre-rad I put on the car :)

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Originally Posted by Ian S

94°C

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That's a sweeping statement really as my gauges are not absolutely accurate, as none are I expect.

The k-type specification is a bit out everywhere except 25°C. And the Analogue Devices thermocouple amplifier I use is only rated at ± 3%.

± a couple of °C either way of 94°C is more realistic, which is perfectly fine for this usage.

The pre rad is butted right up to the rad, I've made some cowling today so the air has no other route other than the rad, and scratched off even more paint off round where the earth is. We spent quite a bit of time getting all the air bubbles out out the charge cooler system.

Bigger pre rad is already on the list of bits to get. :cool:

Will go out and give it another go tonight and see what temps I get. :)

Could the silver box of tricks pick up interference from my rev limter as they are quite close? :confused:

Sorry to go off from the charge temps but sticking with the gauges.. My backing light has gone out on the temp sensor and egt sensor, is there a specific wire i should play about with to try and get these working again?

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Originally Posted by Logg

Could the silver box of tricks pick up interference from my rev limter as they are quite close? :confused:

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Errm...I think the answer to that is no. But, I did have one case where there was some kind of breakthrough as the displayed temp went up by 1°C when the heater fan was switched on. That was an early version though and the later ones have a bit better power supply.

I presume you have Steve L's old blue one? On that one the metal box is isolated from the wiring by a thermal pad and bush kit. Necessary due the the regulator for the higher voltage for the blue light having a live tab as opposed to an earthed tab.

So the box will probably give some shielding. As for RFI being inducted into the wiring loom, that another matter and I don't have an anwser other than if it did, it probably would not raise the or lower temp. More likely to cause some flickering instability type variation.

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Originally Posted by minty83

Sorry to go off from the charge temps but sticking with the gauges.. My backing light has gone out on the temp sensor and egt sensor, is there a specific wire i should play about with to try and get these working again?

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Ah, so do you have Marts old dual then?

There is a thin black wire that Earths the two back lights. They both, and the display electronics, are supplied together through the red wire.

The thin black wire goes straight to earth in the black box.

Is this it:

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Originally Posted by Ian S

Errm...I think the answer to that is no. But, I did have one case where there was some kind of breakthrough as the displayed temp went up by 1°C when the heater fan was switched on. That was an early version though and the later ones have a bit better power supply.

I presume you have Steve L's old blue one? On that one the metal box is isolated from the wiring by a thermal pad and bush kit. Necessary due the the regulator for the higher voltage for the blue light having a live tab as opposed to an earthed tab.

So the box will probably give some shielding. As for RFI being inducted into the wiring loom, that another matter and I don't have an anwser other than if it did, it probably would not raise the or lower temp. More likely to cause some flickering instability type variation.

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Na I lent that to Turbo Ted before I finished my build last year. We did a deal he bought one of your latest batch for me. :) the black with red numbers. :D

+/- a few degrees is not a problem wondering how to solve the 100+ temps I've been seeing. Will have to look at air filter positioning then and finally Turbo issues maybe. :cry:

I did find last night that when driving flat out the cabin temp went up by 3 degrees and when I let off it dropped back to 22. :scratch:

I see :)

The new red and green ones had the old type regulators, but I still isolated the metal box with the pad and bush.

I think that might be a earth issue.

The way it works is that the cabin (chip) temp is output when the input wire from the thermocouple probe is shorted to earth.

When the button is pressed that's what happens. So any voltage supplied by the thermocouple then is also earthed.

But in the case of it rising a bit when there is a higher voltage input, ie, flooring it, I assume that there is a small amount of voltage not quite being earthed and that shows as that 3°C rise.

I think the (static) lower temp, 22°C, will be the chips temperature.

I testing I'm not sure now if I tried suddenly raising to 100°C and then dropping to room temp with the button was pressed. Just to something lower, and the temp remained stable.

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Originally Posted by Ian S

Errm...I think the answer to that is no. But, I did have one case where there was some kind of breakthrough as the displayed temp went up by 1°C when the heater fan was switched on. That was an early version though and the later ones have a bit better power supply.

I presume you have Steve L's old blue one? On that one the metal box is isolated from the wiring by a thermal pad and bush kit. Necessary due the the regulator for the higher voltage for the blue light having a live tab as opposed to an earthed tab.

So the box will probably give some shielding. As for RFI being inducted into the wiring loom, that another matter and I don't have an anwser other than if it did, it probably would not raise the or lower temp. More likely to cause some flickering instability type variation.

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ah thats the one il have a play when i get the 5 out next cheers

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Originally Posted by Ian S

I see :)

The new red and green ones had the old type regulators, but I still isolated the metal box with the pad and bush.

I think that might be a earth issue.

The way it works is that the cabin (chip) temp is output when the input wire from the thermocouple probe is shorted to earth.

When the button is pressed that's what happens. So any voltage supplied by the thermocouple then is also earthed.

But in the case of it rising a bit when there is a higher voltage input, ie, flooring it, I assume that there is a small amount of voltage not quite being earthed and that shows as that 3°C rise.

I think the (static) lower temp, 22°C, will be the chips temperature.

I testing I'm not sure now if I tried suddenly raising to 100°C and then dropping to room temp with the button was pressed. Just to something lower, and the temp remained stable.

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Cool I'll give the earth another going over. :)

Just been out for a blast and saw 90ish at the highest. so things are getting better! (as cabin temp is 34 rather than 22 from last night.) :agree: But then after that it wouldn't settle less than 40-50. :cry: but when I got home found that the charge cooler level had dropped a bit so after checking found a couple of weeps from conenctions so have tightened them up a bit more. :crap: and I guess the poor pace pre rad aint up to the job! :disagree::disagree:

are you using 19mm water hose through out the system?

this is the pre rad im useing
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/images/bigradwhite.jpg

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

or the pwr is full of air :confused:

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did you bleed it, or have you installed it in such a way that it self bleeds?

The pace pre rads are ****e dude, known fact.....

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Originally Posted by Andrew Cooke

did you bleed it, or have you installed it in such a way that it self bleeds?

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Yes but found loads of Air in the CC today and rad tried to get it all out. it seems better down to 70-80

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Originally Posted by minty83

Sorry to go off from the charge temps but sticking with the gauges.. My backing light has gone out on the temp sensor and egt sensor, is there a specific wire i should play about with to try and get these working again?

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I had another thought. Has the brightness gone completely or is it just a lot lower?

You unit has a knob on the side that controls the brightness.

You could try giving that a turn if you haven't already.

I you have, try turning a few times and see if that helps. Sometimes dirt can accrue on the wiper / conductive strip and a few turns can clean it.

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Originally Posted by tubby5

are you using 19mm water hose through out the system?

this is the pre rad im useing
https://www.rtoc.org/boards/images/bigradwhite.jpg

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Right I've just measured the pipes to the cooler they are 23mm od but from the header tant to pump and then to the rad ar much much smaller! could this be blocking the flow?

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Originally Posted by Logg

Yes but found loads of Air in the CC today and rad tried to get it all out. it seems better down to 70-80

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you have 2 problems there:

the header tank is lower than the CC
the CC water exit is lower than the highest point where air can be trapped

I know not good but with the bits I got with the kit it looks like the pervous owner had a pace cc and thhen just swapped coolers. so its a bit of a mish mash of parts. :cry:

hopefully when the new hoses turn up I'll be able to put the cooler lower. between the head and rad maybe.

Just an idea,why don't you mount the header tank in the scuttle that would be the highest point(that's where mine is mounted)also it makes your pipe run longer so there's more water in the system.infact I ditched my little header tank for a bigger unit

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Originally Posted by Logg

Right I've just measured the pipes to the cooler they are 23mm od but from the header tant to pump and then to the rad ar much much smaller! could this be blocking the flow?

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I would of thought so,prob best to keep the pipe 19mm I/d through out the system as your not creating a bottle neck effect

someone correct me if I'm wrong

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Originally Posted by tubby5

Just an idea,why don't you mount the header tank in the scuttle that would be the highest point(that's where mine is mounted)also it makes your pipe run longer so there's more water in the system.infact I ditched my little header tank for a bigger unit

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I was thinking about a bigger header thank but was told that the more water in the system the harder it'll be to cool it once it had warmed up. :scratch:

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Originally Posted by tubby5

I would of thought so,prob best to keep the pipe 19mm I/d through out the system as your not creating a bottle neck effect

someone correct me if I'm wrong

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Trouble is the header tank, pump and rad all have small ends on them. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Logg

I was thinking about a bigger header thank but was told that the more water in the system the harder it'll be to cool it once it had warmed up. :scratch:

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Conversely, the more water, the higher the thermal mass and therefore thermal absorption and so the lower the charge temp will be when booting it from low speed around town or occasionally overtaking on country lanes / motorway or for a single run on the strip.

Even for track lapping, if there's enough time off full power it might cool well enough between uses. If there isn't, the overall effectiveness will be dependant of the pre-rad, etc, just the same as for a lower thermal mass cooler.

Horses for courses.

Of course, more mass = heavier car = going slower.

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Originally Posted by Logg

I did find last night that when driving flat out the cabin temp went up by 3 degrees and when I let off it dropped back to 22. :scratch:

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I tested a unit last night.

The chip / ambient and a probe tip temperature were 27°C for either switch position.

I applied 300°C to the probe tip and switched to 'ambient', showed 27°C.

I 'let off' the heat and the 27°C didn't budge as the probe tip temp rapidly dropped.

Repeated the procedure a few times with the same result.

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Originally Posted by Ian S

I tested a unit last night.

The chip / ambient and a probe tip temperature were 27°C for either switch position.

I applied 300°C to the probe tip and switched to 'ambient', showed 27°C.

I 'let off' the heat and the 27°C didn't budge as the probe tip temp rapidly dropped.

Repeated the procedure a few times with the same result.

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Cool I just got back from testing myself the gauge now sits at cabin temp and would't move from 24 while driving hard. So thats my earth issues sorted. :) Thanks for the Help Ian. :agree::agree:

Inlet temp got to high 60's low 70's. So I guess that means next issues are with CC flow and rad size.

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Originally Posted by Ian S

Conversely, the more water, the higher the thermal mass and therefore thermal absorption and so the lower the charge temp will be when booting it from low speed around town or occasionally overtaking on country lanes / motorway or for a single run on the strip.

Even for track lapping, if there's enough time off full power it might cool well enough between uses. If there isn't, the overall effectiveness will be dependant of the pre-rad, etc, just the same as for a lower thermal mass cooler.

Horses for courses.

Of course, more mass = heavier car = going slower.

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Weight isn't really an issue with the amount of sound deadening in the car now. :ashamed: So more water the better then!

Are these PWR coolers any good? I mean when properly setup with a decent pre-rad, pump hose run etc

I presuming the core is more efficient than a Pace jobbie but from what I've read that isn't too hard...

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Originally Posted by David H

Are these PWR coolers any good? I mean when properly setup with a decent pre-rad, pump hose run etc

I presuming the core is more efficient than a Pace jobbie but from what I've read that isn't too hard...

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100s times better. The kit contains a lot better pump, bigger pipe diameter to flow more water at a faster rate. The core is a lot more effecient plus the a lot more choice on rads for fitment due to the pipe diameter can fit on, the pace rad is poor design and doesn't aid much to the cooling of the water

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Originally Posted by Bigfoot

100s times better. The kit contains a lot better pump, bigger pipe diameter to flow more water at a faster rate. The core is a lot more effecient plus the a lot more choice on rads for fitment due to the pipe diameter can fit on, the pace rad is poor design and doesn't aid much to the cooling of the water

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true but if you take into consideration that pre rad size and header tank size of the original pace kit , it was only ever going to be good for short bursts of power, and the fact that the inlet caused a bottle neck 50mm and outlet is 63mm (no wonder), bb designed it for short power runs, the core itself is not that bad 20mm gap between the 2 core units, ive kept with the pace item, although ive modified it a bit, matched inlet to outlet to 63mm and fabricated a new much larger pre rad (which is where most of the cooling takes place anyway) and fabricated a much bigger header tank, and can honestly say, ive never had any issues, plus you can pick up a second hand item for around the £100 mark (chargecooler unit only)which makes it good value for money ,and is easier to fit in a tight engine bay(not above engine for added heat soak)like the pwr item, pretty sure lotus fitted pace products as standard so cant be that bad:confused: just my 5p 's worth:D

forgot to add , that the o.e pump is :crap:(bosch 04 44 item ftw) but do you really need to increase the flow rate with bigger inlets/ outlets:scratch: would that not make it less effective at taking away the heat from the core :(

i think this is an area that needs more research, back to back tests:D

I believe mart done some testing with teh PWR chargecooler

Would you want a slow rate of water going round? You would be keeping a lot of heat in the water before it reaches the tank / pre-rad. Cant say I realised about the bottle neck in the pace CC. Im running one myself, but with a airtec rad for cooler, if it works for the cosworth boys with their turbos im sure its good enough for a CC plus ideal fit behind the bumper without having to cut any of it up :)

The pump used in the PWR is 0392022002. The higher the surface area the more heat can transfer into the water, colder water warms quicker than already hot water so would have thought pumper cooler water to take its place will mean the transfer of heat will be better. Whos good at science here :scared:

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Originally Posted by Bigfoot

I believe mart done some testing with teh PWR chargecooler

Would you want a slow rate of water going round? You would be keeping a lot of heat in the water before it reaches the tank / pre-rad. Cant say I realised about the bottle neck in the pace CC. Im running one myself, but with a airtec rad for cooler, if it works for the cosworth boys with their turbos im sure its good enough for a CC plus ideal fit behind the bumper without having to cut any of it up :)

The pump used in the PWR is 0392022002. The higher the surface area the more heat can transfer into the water, colder water warms quicker than already hot water so would have thought pumper cooler water to take its place will mean the transfer of heat will be better. Whos good at science here :scared:

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whoops my mistake the pump is 22002,must have got confused with the bosch pump:innocent::innocent:


how does the colder water warm quicker than hot water work , if you boil an already hot kettle , it gets to temp quicker than a cold kettle:scratch: and the surface area would depend on where your heat source is ;) im no expert , but i think we need more" proof of pudding" roland stlyleee:laugh::laugh::laugh: